"German Flags in WWI" Topic

Question about German regimental colors in 1914. Germany was one of the few countries to carry its regimentals into battle, at least for the Guns of August campaign. I also know there was a standard pattern and for the infantry, at least, the background cross color was based on the shoulder strap color of the corps, eg, IV Korps – scarlet, so infantry flags all had the design of the picture below. This was based on a decree from the Kaiser in 1890.

But what about the cavalry, was there a similar system for their flags? Given they were assigned to the various corps during peacetime (forming divisions and so on after the declaration of hostilities), I thought they might have followed the infantry system but a check of a few cavalry regiments against the peacetime OB showed the color schemes did not match.

Any idea what process the Germans used to determine cavalry standard colors?

It's a complicated subject and is discussed in detail in Unsterbliche Treue (MAJ Ewald Fiebig, Berlin, 1936). My German isn't good enough to pick out the details, but there's a lot of photos and also line drawings of the flags, plus a list of what was carried in 1914-15, and what was lost.

That design only applies to the regiments raised in Prussia, mate, and some minor German states. Those from other states (eg Bavaria and Saxony) used designs that incorporated traditional features of those states' flags pre-German Empire. For example the flag presented to Infantry Regiment 168 (Hesse) in 1903 had a different wreath and replaced the Prussian eagle and scroll with the red-and-white striped lion combatant of Hesse.

The cavalry flags look to be many and varied. One Uhlan guidon looks like the 1816 Prussian model. We know that in the late 1800's "Historical" designs were used for some Prussian cavalry regiments. But whether they were carried into WWI I can't say.

My German isn't good enough to pick out the details

Have you tried using Google translate? The mobile app is fantastic, you can use it to photograph a page and everything then gets translated into your language of choice. I have used it on books in French and Dutch and it works perfectly.

I haven't, Rocco. I don't know why I didn't think of it, as I used it when I was in Europe.

Thanks, mate, that's a good suggestion.

Dal, I am aware of the exceptions for the semi independent kingdoms of the Kaiserzeit, so no problem there. Its the cavalry that gives me fits.

So where the hell did you find a digital copy of Unsterbliche Treu? I speak German and it might have the the information I need. I can't find one on Google Books.

I bought the book, Bill. It's come in handy with my research on Prussian flags for Kronoskaf. Copies, particularly old library copies, aren't that expensive ( link ). Plus I was an overpaid defence contractor at the time, so I indulged myself.

As for the cavalry flags, he glosses over the cavalry to some extent. The Prussians did the "historical" issues in 1898 (see below- a Regimentsstandarte of KR Nr 7, which inherited the honours of v. Seydlitz' old KR Nr 8) and may have been carrying them in 1914-15. There's some examples given in the plates, eg a (pretty poor) photo of the Dragoon Regiment 24's Leibstandarte, that indicate the various states' cavalry also carried their own state designs. There's also the Uhlan pattern I mentioned above.

I don't know if there's going to be an easy answer, mate. Hopefully von Winterfield or Oli Schmidt may chime in with some advice.

Well, first, thanks for your answer and your information. FYI, the information for the flag below comes from something called "Militär-Vorschriften der kgl. preußischen Armee." I have yet to find a book with that exact same name anywhere, however. Do you have any clue if it might have another title?

BTW, are you also doing the flags for the new Kronoskaf WSS Wiki, cuz if you are, you are gonna go nuts.

That's a new title to me, mate. There's a few hits on similar titles at the Deutsche Digitale Bibliothek ( link ), but not the exact title, even when you expand the "kgl.". The plate resembles some of the illustrations I've seen in photos of cigarette cards, and some of the plates in Feibig, so may be from a card collection? It looks like Menzel's work and I believe he did do some card sets. Uniformology did a set of "Imperial" German flags, based on Fahnen und Standarten der alten preußischen Armee. by Lezius. You can still get the original easily enough, and quite cheaply ( link ). The Bavarian Army Museum used to do year books that contained photos of artefacts in their collections, but I haven't seen one for years.

I'm providing minor assistance with the WSS stuff, mate, mainly by supplying some of Redlin's plates and copies of photos (old- taken in the early 1900's) of some surviving artefacts in St Petersburg and Vienna. We have a couple of other members who know a lot more than I do, and have access to the museums, so they can take most of the weight on that. :-)

Well I actually think he might have meant that he looked at many different Prussian regulations, as opposed to a specific title. But anyway, talk to me about this A_Menzel. He is mentioned on several groups (such as Total War) as being connected with these images. A huge collection of these images are in Wikemedia where they are listed under the name Steinbeisser as creater, which was later changed to Centenier. Does he have a Website?

Précis from wiki:

Adolph Friedrich Erdmann Menzel (he gained his "von" in 1898) was a painter and a leading light of the "Realistic" school in Prussia. Born in 1815, died in 1905.

Of more interest to us is the fact that he was also the illustrator for a number of books, had an interest in the period of Fred II of Prussia and seems to have had an interest in flags. His style was copied widely at the turn of the 19th century.

On the plus side he's considered pretty reliable as a source. I don't know of any website dedicated to his work, though.

What you may want to track down are the Heer und Tradition "fahnentafel" series of flag plates. Number 47 (Fahnentafel Nr XLVII) includes the standarten for the 1, 2, 3, 6 and 11 Hussars (Prussia). Number 48 includes the 17th Hussars (Brunswick) and 7, 8 and 12th Hussars (Prussia). They're not as reliable as Menzel (there are definite errors on plate 38, for example), and they don't run in historical order (so plate 46, for example, is about Austrian cavalry 1745-1768) but they cover a wide range of subjects and are more accurate for the later periods. You can find a few of them using the search term '"heer und tradition" and fahnentafel'.

Well, I'll just be damned, I finally figured it out.* It seems that when the Kaiser introduced the new infantry pattern flag on 18 December 1890 (that based the color of the corps shoulder straps to which the unit was assigned), the cavalry received an identical (tho smaller and swallow tailed) standard with the color based on . . .

The regimental color of the cavalry unit during the Franco-Prussian War. Embroidery color was based on button color. Yes, the non-Prussian states had their own design, the Jaeger zu Pferd had green as a universal color (they being the mounted equivalent of Jaeger zu Fus) and yes, some units retained their old colors or received an historical issue, but this is the answer. I was able to match every flag image like the one above 100 % to FPW regimental colors, such as this image below of Hussar Regt No 4 which wore brown Atilla tunics during the FPW, with yellow/gold buttons.

Seriously, I've been researching the Russian colors carried during the Great War as well, and I have never seen such a completely convoluted, confusing, capricious and totally inconsistent (non) system in my life. Someone at the Winter Palace was clearly hitting the opium a bit too much, BUT, I was able to easily find online, for free, definitive information for each and every regiment and each and every flag. Go figure.

Anyway, that seems to be the answer.

*I don't suppose there are just a couple of paragraphs in German out of Unsterbliche Treue that might collaborate, are there?

I don't suppose there are just a couple of paragraphs in German out of Unsterbliche Treue that might collaborate, are there?

He confirms that that system was used for cavalry colours, with the exception of those "Old" regiments who received "traditional" colours in 1898. These weren't just the regiments that were re-raised in 1806, as they included KR Nr 7, which carried the modern version of the pre-1806 KR Nr 8 standard (the photo above in this thread). Other examples are:

DR Nr 1 carried a modern version of the post 1806 DR Nr 3 guidon,

KR Nr 6 carried a modern form of the pre-1806 KR Nr 1 standard, and

KR Nr 2 carried a modern version of the pre-1806 DR Nr 5 Leibstandarte.

The same applied to Grenadier regiments 1 to 12, which were the infantry regiments raised from un-surrendered regiments in 1807-1808- they carried modernised versions of the colours carried pre-1806, except for the Leiobgrenadier Regiment, which carried modernised versions of the 1810 Regimentsfahne. The six regiments of the Foot Guards carried a version of the 1741 Leibguarde Leibfahne.

Sorry it's not a definitive answer, mate, but being definite about anything to do with military flags is not easy unless there's a surviving example.

The Russian system in the mid C18 was fairly simple, but I don't doubt some committee or bureaucrat was able to remedy that and make the system incomprehensible in the following 160 years.