"Infantry and terrain scale in "De Bellis Napoleonicis v 2.1"" Topic

Hello everyone,

I am only interested in 25mm so I will only talk to you about 25mm, so to start in 2.4 page 3, it is written in summary: "All distances are referred to as 'paces' with 100 paces equating to 40mm if using 20mm to 30mm figures".

So the 60 mm of frontage of a base for any type of element really corresponds to 150 paces or 112.50 meters.

I would like a specialist in Napoleonic formations to explain to me in what historical formation a brigade sized group of 2000 to 2500 infantrymen, including integral skirmishers, command staff and supporting artillery as described in 2.3.1. page 3 would have been deployed on a frontage of 150 paces?

I'm not sure that the rules apply scale consistently. The 'pace' seems be notional rather than an actual distance; I'd guess that the frontage of a brigade would generally be wider than effective musket shot.
To answer your question, 150 paces sounds to my inexpert opinion like a battalion in column of divisions.

I'd believe advocate, or a battalion deployed in line with three more battalions behind it. but yes, I'd expect a brigade frontage to be twice the specified distance--that is, more or less, where V&B has it.

You know, this sounds like the old DB problem where, going from 15mm to 25mm, they increase stand size by 50% but use a different multiple for distances. (No, I'm not going to dig up my copy to check.) Might be better to ask about how frontages compare with ranges. A brigade ought to shoot about half its frontage (actual musket range) to it's full frontage (throwing in skirmishers and attached guns.) If that's the case, I'd say ignore the theoretical distance given in the rules. If that's not the case, you have a deeper problem.

Just a question but have you asked the creator of these rules your queries , I did a while back regarding some aspects in the rules around what 'napoleonic artillery' meant in the rules – if I recall, and Alex replied to me over email with ample explanation

@advocate

Yes, 150 paces also sounds in my opinion like a French infantry battalion in a column of divisions, or two fronting companies and no more.

@robert piepenbrink

At Waterloo for example, d'Erlon's divisions from the road to Papelotte are thin phalanxes each having a front of 150 meters (200 paces), a depth of 60 meters (80 paces) and separated by intervals of 300 meters (400 paces).

The battalions of each division are deployed in line, but tightly packed one behind the other, so that there is only room between them for the line-holders.

On 150 paces, you can't even deploy in line, one of the small French battalions of the time !

@Georg Buechner

I haven't done it yet, because I've already asked Alex Testo a lot of questions, but I'm asking him today in the hope that he will answer.

What did he answer you?

I'd also like to see Alex' replies. I've recently got into Napoleonics via DBN & also have some concerns re ground & troop scale, unit frontages, etc. Getting this right is an important aspect of gaming to me (much to the annoyance of my gaming peers). I've been trying to find decent info on unit frontages, w/o much success….and obviously, frontages changed with formation…..difficult to simulate when each base is a brigade. Always compromises…..

@Paskal – Alex explained that "Napoleonic Artillery" is just a generic term used to mean all types of artillery, – i had been thinking it was some specific designation

i was also asking him about unit sizes in terms numbers of soldiers etc as i was at the time trying to figure out making some small Lutzow's Freikorp force for a hypothetical and deliberately imbalanced matchup against french IG forces and was trying to figure out battalion sizes – fortunately the rules for DBN are not too rigid with how many actual men a uni may represent – a battalion of any size could be more or less represented with a stand.

What is the range of 12-pounder and 6-pounder artillery in DBN (at the 25mm figure scale)?

On 150 paces, you can't even deploy in line, one of the small French battalions of the time !

I think you can although it depends a bit how long you think a "pace" is.

A 30-inch pace would be 76cm, so the 150-pace frontage is 114 metres. A file was normally 56cm wide, so the indicated frontage is something like 200 to 204 men wide (112.5m or 114m / 0.56m).

As others have said, that's the frontage of roughly one 600-man battalion drawn up in three ranks. If that's a brigade, then as Robert has said, it's in column of battalions.

The point about weapon ranges is right on the money. Effective musket shot, i.e. the maximum range at which it was thought worthwhile bothering to fire, was about 100 metres, which is to say it's about as far in front of a battalion line as the line is wide. Artillery typically fired at about six times that distance.

Whatever your musket range is, that is the frontage of a line and if the rules say otherwise we are into abstract territory here.

Thank you, 4th.

And yes, Paskal, everyone entering into a Napoleonics discussion on TMP knows about d"Erlon at Waterloo. And unless DBN 2.1 requires intervals between bases, that 300 meter interval space has to be included somewhere in the calculation of unit frontages and how much space a base width represents.

It's also worth remembering that these rules are not Waterloo-specific. Anyone attempting to approximate army-level warfare over a 25 year period and a dozen nations or so can only be roughly correct at best, and an outright glitch or two is almost inevitable. I may not always agree with them, but authors who've done this much probably deserve to be quietly disagreed with rather than berated.

@Dolphinless

So we both understand each other well: here is the response that Alex sent me last night :

"In DBN 100 paces = approximately 100 yards, this is approximately!Each DBN base frontage is approximately 160 paces = 160 yards (in my old money) or approximately 150 meters (in new money)The Infantry Brigade of 2000 – 2400 (say 2200) represents 3 or 4 Battalions, deployed ‘in depth' (2 up and 1 or 2 in support) these battalions are in a mixture of Line and Column.

Then we have the problem of ‘how long is a piece of string'? if all the battalions are in Column formation then they would comfortably fit inside the template, if they were in Line they would be double the width but a quarter of the depth?
So I have gone for an average total area that an infantry Brigade deployed ‘in depth' would occupy.
A good example to look at is my Battle of Waterloo, the units seem to fit in comfortably to the ground scale of 100 paces = 100 yards."

@GeorgBuchner

After receiving Alex's response (Above), I asked him on a frontage how many spaces he deployedin line (in two or three rows depending on the nation, without forgetting the spaces between the battalions)his infantry "brigade" of 2200 men?

@Eumelus

In DBN (at the 25mm figure scale), the range of the 12-pounder is of 1000 paces (750 real meters) or 40 centimeters on the table and the range of the 6-pounder is of 600 paces (450 real meters) or 24 centimeters on the table, you see even there is something to rectify.

@4th Cuirassier

One step equals 75 centimeters and it is immutable, and contrary to what you write, you will not align 200 infantrymen over 150 paces, especially when they are moving.

But if I want to go deeper, I will have to buy documentation on tactical deployments, as I did for other periods because what we see on the gaming tables is often nonsense.

Effective musket fire (killing range) began at approximately 75 meters(100 paces).

@robert piepenbrink

The 300 meter interval between the divisions of d'Erlon at Waterloo should not be included somewhere in the calculation of unit frontages and space since the frontage of a base represents that of a brigade not intervals between infantry divisions or brigades.

Yes Robert, these rules are not specific to Waterloo, but whatever Napoleonic battle you study, the problems will be the same and I am not reprimanding anyone because I value the DBN system too much, like all DBxxx rules whatever the period.

But in any case I will rectify things to make this realistic.

The least complicated would be to change the troop representation scale by taking as an unchanging basis that 6 centimeters on the table represent 150 paces.

@ Paskal

you will not align 200 infantrymen over 150 paces, especially when they are moving.

I beg to differ. The infantry of a given army had a limited number of quite specific march cadences – "normal", "quick", "pas de charge", "double time" etc depending on who we're talking about. They moved at no other pace than those. The day job for an infantry battalion was broadly four things – practicing formation changes; route marching; weapon drill; and moving at exactly X paces per minute. Moving in an orderly way at the normal pace was most of an infantry unit's business in life. It was understood that moving at any of the faster paces increased the risk of the unit losing its order.

I am toying with the idea of a rule whereby the French march at the pas de charge without loss of cohesion, but everyone else who moves out of ordinary step has an X% chance of becoming unformed each move.

They maintained this cadence regardless of formation. On slopes they maintained the cadence but shortened the step, hence the comments about d'Erlon's attack moving at a slower pace than usual.

A unit that couldn't do this wasn't actually fit to stand in the line. It would not cross the same distance as adjoining units in the same time as they did. The NCOs drilled this into the unit and the officers who then led it thereby knew the space they would take up, how long it would take to move up yonder hill and how long to form square from column. It would be the same for all units.

So not only could they keep a battalion in order – they could keep a brigade, a division or indeed a whole corps in order. It was what they did.

@4th Cuirassier
Sorry but on 150 paces you put – especially when they are moving – 150 infantrymen maximum.

@Paskal

Extra Crispies' reply over here -> TMP – Artillery ranges in in DBN v2.1

I am reminded of a very early – very obscure – board-game published in Paris (France not TX) between 1965 and 1975. This had a stylised playing board with metal pieces and quite detailed rules. Remembering it makes me want to grow side-burns, don my chunky sweater, light my pipe, and drive off in my Citroen DS.

@Stoppage

As they say now in Brittany (the little country next to France) " it was better before ! ".

TMP link

To my question if in DBN, the areas given on page 11 for BUA and NLF are for 15mm or 25mm figurines, Alex replied last night:

"Hello Pascal
All distances quoted are for 15mm scale (see 1.4) Therefore with 25mm figures on a 60mm Frontage, BUA's would be approximately 160mm x 160mm and NLF's 120mm x 90mm.
However If I was using 25mm figures, my personal preference would be to go with a 80mm Frontage and double all quoted distances.

Alex"

In conclusion now with 25 mm figurines – 50 mm corresponds to 100 paces.

This modifies all our previous calculations!

Furthermore, after asking Alex the question, this also modifies the quantities of figurines on the bases, which suits me well :

So now on a base for 25 mm figurines we can stick on these larger bases:

- 2 – 5 figures on a "C-in-C" base instead of 2 – 4.
- 2 – 3 figures on a "Sub Commander" base instead of 1 – 2.
- 10 "muskets" figures instead of 8 per base.
- 8 "light infantry" figures instead of 6 per base.
- 4 "jagers" figures instead of 3 per base.
- 10 "Levee en masse" figures instead of 8 per base.
- 4 "Guerrillas" figures instead of 2-3 per base.
- 5 "Heavy Cavalry" figures instead of 4 per base.
- 4 "Light Cavalry" figures instead of 3 per base.
- 3 "skirmishing cavalry" figures instead of 2 per base.
- 3 "Irregular cavalry" figures instead of 2 per base.
- 5 "Foot artillery" figures instead of 4 per base.
- 4 "Horse artillery" figures instead of 3 per base.
- 4 "Rocket Launcher Servants" figures instead of 3 per base.