"From Pike To Shot - American Revolution" Topic

Hello everyone,

I only own 25mm MiniFigs figurines, while studying their "From Pike To Shot – American Revolution" range, I noticed a few things that I can't explain…

There are some references to the "British 5th Light Coy", why the "British 5th Light Coy"?

Did she have a special outfit?

5 th is the number of this company?

Strange, I think it should be the number of a regiment? No?

There are also some references to the "British 38th Grenadier Coy", why the "British 38th Grenadier Coy"?

Did she have a special outfit?

38th is the number of this company?

Strange, I think it should be the number of a regiment?

No?

There are also "Continental Infantryman" before and after 1780?

What is the difference?

I realize that there are also artillerymen from Hesse Cassel, I didn't know that the Germans had supplied artillery to the English?

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A lot of "Germans" served in the AWI. Some contingents were quite large, while others were fairly small. Hessen-Hanau and Ansbach-Bayreuth also had artillery troops in North America.

As far as the grenadiers and lights go, I don't know why they did that. Grenadiers and Lights were combined battalions consisting of flank companies of foot regiments. My guess is that they are referring to the Grenadier company of the 38th foot, and the light company of the 5th foot, who respectively served in the 1st Grenadier Battalion and the 1st Light Infantry Battalion, both of which served at Lexington and Concord, as well as other well known battles.

British light infantry company headgear varied widely. The 5th's company was illustrated in several of the early uniform books.

The American army published a standardized uniform directive at the end of 1779, so that would account for the 1780 uniform figures.

The Continental army had various official or common uniform styles throughout the AWI. Saying pre-1780 and post 1779 is misleading. However I suspect the 1780 uniforms are as 79th suggests a reflection of the standardized uniforms that were directed by Washington in 1779.

In this war the British battalions always fought without their grenadier companies and their light companies?

And each grenadier company and light company had their own uniforms?

So American uniforms from before 1780 were used after 1780 and in a regiment, there were uniforms of all regulations.

The term "uniform" is pretty loose on campaign in North America.

Flank companies were generally detached, but that does not mean that they were always detached.

Flank companies wore the uniforms of their parent regiment. Flank companies would have "wings" on their shoulders (although there is some evidence that the grenadiers of one regiment did not have wings).

The British also did not have a regulation light infantry cap, so multiple styles of headgear were worn by the various companies, but the headgear type would be uniform within the company itself. .

The grenadiers hung up their bearskins around 1777, possibly as late as 1778.

Gamers like order in their toy soldiers, so light infantry are frequently in a well known cap style, and grenadiers are in bearskins, and the hatmen are, well, in a cocked hat. This was especially true in the 70's when a treasure trove of uniform information was not at one's fingertips.

The Americans wore whatever they could get their hands on, be it old uniforms, captured British uniforms, factory made uniforms, tailor made uniforms, civilian clothes, frock coats, etc., and this doesn't include small clothes, footwear and headgear.

Paskal, it is really complex. But there are some good books on AWI uniforms and lots of info free online.

AND I think most of us use the same troops for all the battles we game, from Lexington to Yorktown and beyond. Unless you intend to game only a specific campaign, I'd just buy and paint what you like and use it as needed.

@79thPA

Which grenadiers from which regiment did not have wings?

All references to British light companies therefore belong to their 5th regiment?

You write "The grenadiers hung up their bear pelts around 1777, perhaps as late as 1778."

Do you mean that the British grenadiers abandoned their bear caps around 1778 to replace it with the tricorn?

For the Americans I understood that they wore whatever they could find, whether it was old uniforms, captured British uniforms, factory made uniforms, custom uniforms, civilian clothing, frock coats, etc., and that this does not include small items of clothing, shoes and headgear.

@doc mcb

I like historical realism too much to practice like that.

Paskal, in that case, keep your armies small.

And the Continentals did indeed wear a variety, but that included thousands of uniforms imported from France -- enough so that Washington could issue them and get a uniform" look.

What campaign or year or theater interests you? The Carolina campaigns of 1780-81 have small armies and lots of interesting fights, but you need a ton of militia.

The Perry southern militia are beautiful figures and great fun to paint.

This book, although flawed, has a huge amount of good information, and is lavishly illustrated. The author is an active TMP member.

An Illustrated History of Uniforms from 1775-1783: The American Revolutionary War Hardcover – July 28, 2008
by Kevin F. Kiley (Author), Digby Smith (Author)

This blog is good. The author doesn't like the book I recommended just above -- and it DOES have problems.

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It is, as I say, very complicated and a moving target.

Anyone committed to 100% accuracy when it comes to AWI uniforms might as well make a reservation at the nearest insane asylum. My advice is to find a few good sources you trust and run with them, knowing that whatever you do someone will disagree with you.

I agree with doc that Mark's blog is an excellent source.

Bill, yes. The Gostelowe flags are a good example: we KNOW they existed, but have only written descriptions of what they looked like, and can only guess at who carried them. So what? My Continentals carry them proudly. And they are gorgeous.
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Same deal with, e.g., some Virginia uniforms: the State Quartermaster's records indicate what colors and amounts of cloth were issued; then an artist guesses what they looked like.

And a major source of uniform information is deserter notices in newspapers. Anybody see any PROBLEMS with that?

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This plate is about as accurate as any, and gives an idea of just how varied was the appearance of even a small Continental force at one battle.

@doc mcb

Thank you because I love everything that is military regulation.

And for the flags it must be madness !

For the uniforms of this war I only have "UNIFORMS AND WEAPONS: SOLDIERS OF THE UNITED STATES, VOLUME 1&2 (L&F. FUNCKEN)".

Do you know these two books?

They are good ?

The Funcken books are okay, I own those and several of their others. However, they are both dated and also very incomplete. Honestly, I think you are best off doing online research. In particular, look at Don Troiani's paintings; he does meticulous research and has done hundreds of AWI topics.

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Thank you.It would be interesting to find Orders of Battle where we would give even approximate numbers of men (and guns and types of guns for the artillery)by units of each type for each army in this or that battle to try to create historical scenarii.

OBs exist online for many battles. Just search.

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It appears that you are not in the U.S. or U.K. Still there are a number of sources available on the internet that you could use Paskal, either to find uniform information or orders of battle. Even if we restrict the discussion to the North American continent the AWI was still a fairly broad conflict. Perhaps if you told us what part of the AWI interests you it would be easier to refer you to sources that could be helpful to you.

Yes, eight years (our longest war) and the fighting moved from region to region.

@doc mcb,

Ok, OBs exist online for many battles, but I want OBs with the effectives by units.

@Bill N

Yes I'm not in the U.S. or U.K. but I'm only on earth. I'm looking for Obs from battles with the largest numbers of fighters.

OBs will provide that IF IT IS KNOWN. Often it is not, There are significant gaps in our knowledge on this, and on uniforms, and on much else where this conflict is concerned.

@doc mcb

In this case we can't do anything historical?

The largest armies in the area would be the New York campaign of 1776, but large portions of the forces on both sides were not employed in the actual fighting. A better bet if you want big army actions would be the Philadelphia campaign of 1777. This is outside my area of primary interest. I believe that Fife & Drum's AWI line is primarily modelled for this campaign.

For information sources you might want to start with Osprey's Philadelphia 1777: Taking the Capital. It was released over a decade ago, but it is listed on both Amazon and eBay. You can also try Googling Brandywine Paoli and Germantown to see what is available on the internet.

As to doing what is historical -- (I'm a PhD in history): depends on what you think "history" is. It is not just the factual record. Indeed, refighting a battle is highly UNhistorical because the gamer knows immensely more than the real commanders did. There are big gaps in what we know, and in a simulation we must fill those gaps with guesses. Then there is the luck factor.

If you want perfect knowledge and predicatability, play chess.

I agree with Bill that the 1777 battles around Philadelphia are a good thing to focus on. Germantown is a great fight.

@Bill N

Well, I would have thought that it was the most famous and world-famous battles like the battles of Saratoga which took place the September 19 and October 7, 1777 and the battle of Yorktown which took place from September 28 to October 19, 1781 which brought together the biggest combat strength.

@doc mcb

Sorry, I like resuming battles even if it's true that it's completely unhistorical because the player knows a lot more than the real commanders, but it's stronger than me because I love uchronies.

You need to read a general history of the war. Saratoga was a surrender rather than a battle; the battles were Freeman's farm I and II (iirc). Yorktown was a siege.

@doc mcb
Oh ok and there isn't a good big, real pitched battle?

Brandywine. Germantown. Monmouth. Guilford courthouse.

Remember that although GW was trying to build an army that could go toe-to-toe with the Brits in a formal battle, he didn't get there until 1778. The fighting was typically retreats, from Long Island to trenton, and the oppostion to Burgoyne's invasion was hampered by the Patriots not really having an army up there for most of it.

The British were fighting the geography, and a people in arms. Similar to the US in Vietnam: the US Army wins all the battles, but loses the war, because battles are not the main thing.

It is a fascinating war, and there were many SMALL but decisive battles, but if you want big set--piece fights I'd say look elsewhere.

I worked on this as a grad student researcher. Maybe your library can arrange for a loan copy from another library:

The Sinews of Independence: Monthly Strength Reports of the Continental Army First Edition
by Charles H. Lesser (Author)
See all formats and editions
Hardcover
$150.00 USD – $153.94 USD
8 Used from $90.00 USD
1 New from $150.00 USD

These monthly strength reports are first-rate, but incomplete. Use the one nearest the battle you are refighting and you will be close. They are pretty complete for GW's main army but not for, e.g., the southern army under Greene.

@doc mcb

Thanks for your information.

Now I would like to find some OOBs on the Battles of Brandywine, Germantown, Monmouth and Guilford courthouse.

Google

@All
Do you know the range of 25 mm MiniFigs

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How do my connoisseurs of this war find these figurines?

Not too many uniformological errors?