"Hamas vs Israel... again" Topic

Still don't agree SB, and my point here was that I have never seen any leftest groups use Nazi symbols. American white supremacists, yes. But not BLM. Or Antifa. They have their own radical issues.

American Nazis chanting "Blood and Soil" at Charlottesville are not on the left side of the political spectrum.Some alt right groups have adopted Nazi codes and symbols. But they are fringe elements of the modern American right and do not represent traditional conservative values in any way.

Subject: Did Rashida Tlaib Incite Pro-Palestine Protest At Capitol? Netizens Question After Controversial Rally | World News, Times Now


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Subject: Hundreds arrested at Jewish US Capitol rally demanding Israeli ceasefire in Gaza | The Times of Israel


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A small part of her speech. Notice the neck wear

Subject: 'We All Can Cry': US Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib Addresses Ceasefire Protest – YouTube


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Insurrectionists?

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Here is the one displaying the swastika to the cameraman

Subject: Pro-Palestinian Protester in NYC Seen Brandishing Swastika, Crowds Chant ‘F- the Jews' Outside Sydney Opera House – The Messenger


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Mine is a more narrow argument and I am not equating anti-Jewish Muslims and their ancient vendetta with left wing American politics in general. I may not agree with far left or right positions, but they are far from the monolithic forces they are now too often portrayed as in everyday

The few hundred Jewish protesters at the Capitol yesterday were not there to alter an election result, destroy property. They did not attack police. They did not erect a gallows or threaten lawmakers.This is a false equivalence that goes too far, IMO.

I now head for my own sel imposed dawghouse, as I find myself guilty. See you in a few days.

Actually Tort, there was a confrontation with at least one officer. 😉

Subject: 12ft | Press Must Be Held Accountable For Instigating Violence Worldwide


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Still don't agree SB, and my point here was that I have never seen any leftest groups use Nazi symbols. American white supremacists, yes. But not BLM. Or Antifa. They have their own radical issues.

What is "Right" in the context of the current American experience? "Left" is easy because it's anti-status quo and is easily identifiable based on their adherence to a pastiche of Socialist ideologies – Communism, Neo-Fascism, etc.

In the original meaning of "Right," the "Right" supports the traditional system. In late 18th century France that equated to the Monarchists, the Church, etc. that were aligned with the "Conservatives" who supported the status quo.

Where Did the Terms ‘Left Wing' and ‘Right Wing' Come From? It has to do with seating arrangements.

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But it's not 1789, and we're not in France. We're in the United States in 2023, and "Conservatives" on the "Right" who support the status quo, actually support Constitutionalism. They support the rollback of the Federal Leviathan and want a return to more Limited Government and a stronger Federal Republic, they support meritocratic Individualism and the protections of Bill of Rights, the Free Market and Private Property rights.

That's what "Conservatives" and the "Right Wing" mean in the current American context.

This means that the actual "Right Wing" in the US supports the antithesis of all collectivist, racialist and statist movements. This includes being directly opposed to all White Supremacist movement -- skinheads, nazis, neonazis, whatever, who would destroy the American system and replace it with a statist racist system.

So don't get hung up on flags -- though I note that Leftist movements do tend to support the same color schemes of black and red. Instead focus on what they *do*, and what they say they want to do. Look at Antifa, a well-organized mainstay street action group of the Left. They wear black clothing, the knee-cappers where paramilitary gear with helmets and gas masks, they are armed with light melee weapons and shields, they use extreme violence to terrify and intimidate opponents. They are no different from the Brown Shirts and Black Shirts of 1930s Germany and Italy -- and they get shielded and protected by mainstreet Democrat politicians which include the Democrat mayors of major cities like Portland, Seattle, Chicago, NYC, etc.

So why we accept that? Shows you the power of the Left in America.

American Nazis chanting "Blood and Soil" at Charlottesville are not on the left side of the political spectrum.Some alt right groups have adopted Nazi codes and symbols. But they are fringe elements of the modern American right and do not represent traditional conservative values in any way.

I reject the "right" and "alt right" hand-waving terms as being fundamentally incorrect and makes it hard to discern "right" from "left." You even have to differentiate between "right" and "traditional conservatives."

So stop playing that game. It's used deliberately by media and politicians to conflate conservatives with Nazis by labelling both "right wing," and as a tool to dismiss, shut up and shut down conservatives who support Classical Liberalism and are at odds with Progressive Statism.

Mine is a more narrow argument and I am not equating anti-Jewish Muslims and their ancient vendetta with left wing American politics in general.

You should because there's been a decades long alliance with the Western Left and anti-Jewish muslims to attack Israel and the US. They saw the enemy of their enemy as their ally. Anti-Jewish sentiment is now deeply embedded in the institutions of the Left -- especially in the Education system, in the Media, in activist groups like BLM, and among elected leftist officials like Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib and others.

The Left are also highly patronizing, and think the anti-Jewish muslims they allied with can be controlled or contained as they reach their goal of toppling Israel and damaging the US -- but that's what the Left in Iran thought in 1978-1979. The Socialists and Communists an Iran were instrumental in organizing the return, and support of Ayatollah Khomeini. They thought he would be a controllable "moral" face of their movement to topple the Shah -- and once they succeeded they were the *first* to get lined up against the wall and shot by their anti-Jewish Islamist ally.

I think we need a 'left vs right; communism vs fascism' thread. I bet we'd top 10 pages on that! And get a bit more graffiti scratched into the dawghouse walls…

Yeah you could call it "black is white up is down"

Here is the video of Rashida Talib revving up the crowd at the Capital and weeping for dead Palestinian babies.

Subject: James Woods on X: "The leader of the #JihadSquad ignores a question about the Israeli children murdered by Hamas invaders. She must have run out of crocodile tears. t.co/3Oq78g0HNF / X


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Here is the Video of Talib on the 11th refusing to condemn Hamas or the killing of Israeli babies.

"Congresswoman, Hamas terrorists have cut off babies' heads and burned children alive. Do you support Israel's rights to defend themselves against this brutality?"

"You can't comment about Hamas terrorists chopping off babies' heads?"

"Congresswoman, why do you have the Palestinian flag outside your office if you do not condone what Hamas terrorists have done to Israel? Do Israeli lives not matter to you?"

Subject: WATCH: Squad Member Rashida Tlaib Won't Condemn Hamas Chopping Off Babies' Heads


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Not only Israeli's but 29 United States citizens killed by these Hamas terrorists and more taken hostage! How can a Congressman who represents the United States, support the killers of our citizens?! Do you understand why this upsets me? Where are her true loyalties? Where are the loyalties of those who support those who killed our citizens???

UNDERGROUND NIGHTMARE: HAMAS TUNNELS AND THE WICKED PROBLEM FACING THE IDF

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Tunnels are a nightmare, ask the tunnel rats from Vietnam.

Wonder if one could cut the above ground ventilation and then flood them with something that would disable any inside. I know you cannot use anything that would kill, like gas. Especially if any hostages are still alive or not already sold as sex slaves.

Again, I don't care how he feels about this… HAMAS KILLED 29 US CITIZENS and took others hostage. You kill our citizens, you have attacked the United States! People need to decide where their loyalties lie.

Subject: State Department official calls it quits after Biden says US will support Israel: ‘Policy disagreement' | Fox News


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@35thOVI

"Not only Israeli's but 29 United States citizens killed by these Hamas terrorists and more taken hostage! How can a Congressman who represents the United States, support the killers of our citizens?! Do you understand why this upsets me? Where are her true loyalties? Where are the loyalties of those who support those who killed our citizens???"

I agree. That is why "multicultural" societies does not work. When push comes to shove and one has to chose, their true loyalties shine through. This congressman is not a true American in my opinion.

We have the same problem in Sweden with Kurds. they came to Sweden as refugees and Sweden have given them everything, free housing, free education, a safe haven, everything free. But when Sweden wants to join NATO these people do everything they can to sabotage the application as it would put Sweden in the same organization as Turkey.

They are not true Swedes, they do not value the safety of the country that gave them everything and asked for nothing in return.

"HAMAS TUNNELS AND THE WICKED PROBLEM FACING THE IDF"

Only a problem if they choose to enter them, collapse them wherever you find them and block off the entrance / exits. Turn them into tombs for Hamas to be discovered by some future archeologists.

As far as "Lawfare" goes Gaza needs to be leveled. If you hide in schools, hospitals and religious buildings then they are fair targets. Build a tunnel complex hub under a school it is perfectly reasonable to demolish the building with a penetrating bomb. I am sick of these Hamas terrorist PUNKS being held to a different standard. Laws of warfare should not apply to them unless they abide by them themselves. Hamas and Hamas alone are responsible for the fate of the Gaza Strip civilian population.

The hostage's lives are already forfeit…

From open source, it's looking more and more like the 'massacre of 500 people' caused by the 'Israeli airstrike' on the Gaza hospital was actually caused by a malfunctioning palestinian rocket fired by PIJ. Also now looks like 'not a massacre of 500 people' at all, now the likely real culprits are in the frame…..

Update: 32 US citizens killed by Hamas and 11 captives.

See below. Maybe it's time we send a message.

Subject: US Navy warship near Yemen intercepts multiple missiles, US officials say | CNN Politics


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Also a contractor died of a heart attack due to this

Subject: Troops hurt after three drones attack US bases in Iraq as tensions flare after Gaza hospital blast


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"If you hide in schools, hospitals and religious buildings then they are fair targets"

And if their full of kids,sick and wounded, worshipers alls good right?

"Laws of warfare should not apply to them unless they abide by them themselves. Hamas and Hamas alone are responsible for the fate of the Gaza Strip civilian population."

And their it is! if you behave like hamas your no better than them.

Subject: White House apologizes for glaring national security blunder after publishing photo showing faces of US Special Forces as they met Joe Biden in Israel | Daily Mail Online

Will anyone be held accountable? This puts these guys lives in danger.

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Note that NO Arab State wants to take in Palestinians from Gaza.

Yes, that pretty much is the norm. They seem not to be welcomed by their Arab Brothers. Or anywhere else it appears.

I suggest that Iran and Quatar have the prime responsibility for accepting Palestinian refugees given their role in stoking and promoting the violence.

Yes those that have supported Hamas, especially Iran & Quater, should take in the Palestinian refugees. But that won't happen, as then Hamas will not have any human shields. Save for the hostages.

At least one woke progressive member of Congress said[with a straight face], that the US should take a million of the Palestinian refugees. And they elected this activist ?

The USA can't take anymore illegal aliens or even refugees. What is the last count … 8 million ? This flood of illegal aliens will just become more and more troublesome, IMO. Just like with the illegal aliens how many criminals/islamic terrorists etc., have crossed already ? So how many terrorists would come along with 1 million Palestinians ? Only takes a few to steal a truck and start running people over.

"If you hide in schools, hospitals and religious buildings then they are fair targets"

IIRC those structures cannot be targeted. Unless the enemy is using it. Now if it is also occupied by non-combatants. Hamas and the other terrorists will use them as human shields. While still using it to attack troops trying to neutralize the enemy in the structure.

I know of a number of cases, when US troops were in Iraq or A'stan requested fire support. But was denied for concern of killing civilians.

So, in situations like this. Without the requested fire support your troops may take more losses. As leader I don't like that.

Regardless the best one can do is try to mitigate CD and non-combatant deaths as much as possible. Unless they are Hamas, etc. they don't care how many of their own civilians die.

As we know MOUT with insurgents is one of the most challenging operations a leader(s) may have to undertake. Add civilians and hostages it could easily turn into a bloody nightmare.

We may have to be prepared to see this in Gaza …

Quartermass, think about this. 🤔 In WW2 there were Germans who did not back Hitler. In Italy, Italians who did not support Mussolini. Yet the Allies bombed and men, women and children died, including firebombing. The atomic bombs, even more so. Why? Because victory and less allied casualties was the ultimate goal. The difference… the Allies did not start the war, the Axis did.

Israel did not start this.

"Overall, 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas—along with similar percentages of Palestinians in the West Bank (52%) and East Jerusalem (64%)—"

I am not advocating for intentional civilian casualties. Israel will try to avoid them as much as possible. But sadly they will happen. I will not hold the IDF responsible… they did not want this.

"And their it is! if you behave like hamas your no better than them"-Quartermaster

@Quartermaster
Always someone attempting to take the moral high ground, but can you offer a solution? One that does not inflict unreasonable casualties on the Israelis and plays to Hamas strengths? A solution that is not wishful thinking?

I doubt we will see Israelis deliberate targeting of Palestinian civilians, rape, hostage taking, posting war crime videos to the net and rejoicing in it. They do not compare to Hamas in the slightest! Hamas is 100% responsible for civilian deaths if they use them as shields.

"I am not advocating for intentional civilian casualties. Israel will try to avoid them as much as possible. But sadly they will happen. I will not hold the IDF responsible… they did not want this."- 35thOVI

+1 35thOVI

Iran tried to escalate the war in Gaza by tasking their puppets in Yeme, the Houthi, to fire cruise missiles and drones up the coast of the Red Sea. The USS Carmey, an Arleigh Burke-class DDG in the Red Sea shot 'em down.

U.S. Destroyer Used SM-2s to Down 3 Land Attack Missiles Launched from Yemen, Says Pentagon

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Just shaking my head. I picture Charlie Brown and Lucy. Lucy holding the football is Hamas. "This time Charlie I'll hold the ball"

Subject: Biden Official Claims There's An ‘Understanding' With Hamas About Not Stealing $100 USD Million In Aid


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And why did the EU just decide to release about $700 USD Million in aid to Hamas?

These people are frucked in the head.

And here in the San Francisco Bay Area you have a High School "Day of Rage" in which thousands of leftist students marched through the halls of their schools chanting "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free" and "Viva Viva Palestina."

These people are frucked in the head.

"These people are frucked in the head."

Have been done to by their teachers!

Tally Ho!

Subject: Rockets, drones hit Iraqi bases housing U.S. forces | Reuters


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I think after giving the population of Gaza five days to flee the immediate war zone and Hamas a chance to play its "hostage" card, all is said and done.
To put into perspective the monstrosity of Hamas' crime against the Israelis in terms of population and those murdered, Israel has 9.4 million citizens, the U.S. 332 million, which is 35.3 times that of Israel.
That means, to make this comparable I choose 9/11, the US would not have lost 2997 citizens in 9/11, but about 1300 x 35.3 = 45890 dead and 100 x 53.3 = 5330 hostages.
For Germany it would be around 10000 and 1000 respectively.
The British may imagine Omagh 1998 with thousands dead instead of 29.

And the ones murdered by Hamas may well be the lucky ones.
There is an Israeli father who is glad that his eight year old daughter was found dead instead of being taken to Gaza.
Understandably, little girls in the hands of Islamic terrorists is their wet BTK dream.
And the days-long silence of Islamic associations, and then only after multiple requests to take a lukewarm position on it and to offset the body counts against each other, says enough.
Not to mention parts of the left and liberals.
This has already been written about here by others.

Can anyone remember the pictures of Arafat's obvious fear and panic after 9/11, when he still had to fear that Palestinian groups were the perpetrators?

I'm sorry, but for one or two generations a 'peace process' may not be possible, let alone a two-state solution.
What Hamas has done is only a foretaste of what Israel will face if it shows weakness.
It has no choice but to show strength and resilience.

Subject: Biden's White House confronts heaviest week in over 1,000 days


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As some know, I have very little faith in the MSM in our country to tell the truth. This has been proven with the reporting recently of the hospital bombing and other recent stories. Remember these reporters and their ownership, are graduates of the same liberal colleges that are giving us the pro Hamas protestors now. No reason to believe their views have ever been different.

This woman says it better than me.

Subject: Batya Ungar-Sargon on X: "This was the week our press corps was revealed for what they truly are: the stenographers of terrorists. t.co/Zk9pkOfviC / X


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A few more press stories

Subject: NYT Prints Dishonest Photo with Fake Gaza Hospital Story


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Spread Hamas Hospital Hoax to Create More Violence


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It looks like others feel as I do about donations to these colleges. These people are supporting the killers of our citizens.

Subject: University of Pennsylvania grapples with donor crisis after ‘Palestine Writes' event causes uproar | Fox News


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Subject: Ivy League Is Paving The Road To Hell | Bobby Burack


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I'm sorry, but for one or two generations a 'peace process' may not be possible, let alone a two-state solution.

You could call what's happened since 1948 to be a "Three State Solution." The UN created two nations from the Palestine Mandate, which was an administrative term not a cultural identity. The Two States were Israel and Trans-Jordan.

Israel was created as small Jewish homeland state.

Trans-Jordan, which included the West Bank of the Jordan river, was the designated Arab state partitioned from the Palestine mandate.

Gaza and Sinai were given to Egypt.

Then the Arab states *all* attacked Israel – they expelled all their long-standing Jewish populations and even gave arab peoples living in the area fair warning to clear out, and once the Jews had been purged they'd get their land back plus extra stuff from a defunct Israel.

Oops. They lost. The Arabs who left their homes lost out. A bunch ended up in Trans-Jordan where they tried to stage a coup and kill the King and take over. Oops. Not welcome in Jordan now.

Then Egypt lost Sinai and Gaza in the 57 War. Oops. Then Trans-jordan and Syia lost the West Bank and Golan Heights in the 67 War. Oops. I think after the 73 War the Israelis took a little of Lebanon.

The PLO, which had been created by the USSR to destabilize Israel and created the "Palestinian" identity tried some stuff and lost, and ended up rampaging into Lebanon and started that civil war. Israel moved in and booted them out before retreating. So the Palestinians aren't very welcome in Lebanon.

They ended up in Egypt where they allied with the Muslim Brotherhood and eventually the PLO got booted out and ended up in Gaza. They have since conducted terror attacks inside Egypt. Not welcome there anymore.

So they had Gaza. And Israel pulled completely out in 2005 and gave it to the Palestinians, even leaving behind infrastucture and resourced the civil authorities.

This was the THIRD State of a Two State solution.

Well, Hamas got voted into power and then started a civil war in which they killed ALL competing factions and turned Gaza into a islamist terror state and now we are where we are after trying a Three State solution.

Oh, btw, in addition to cruise missiles being fired from Iranian-backed forces in Yemen (where the Houthi also stage anti-ship missiles), Iranian-backed groups in Iraq and Syria have launched 7 attacks on US forces in the last 48hrs.

US Forces Attacked 7 Times in Past 48 Hours, Biden Never Mentions It

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Israel should publish photos of things like this.

Subject: Autistic 13-Year-Old Israeli Seen in Viral ‘Harry Potter' Photo and Grandmother Found Murdered in Gaza | The Gateway Pundit | by Margaret Flavin


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Unconfirmed

Subject: Hamas says it released mother and daughter held in Gaza; no Israeli confirmation | The Times of Israel


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Subject: Spanish Minister: Israel Guilty of ‘Genocide' ━ The European Conservative

What has amazed me since the Hamas attack, is the amount of anti Jewish hatred on the left. I did not say anti semitism as there are more semites then just Jews. But this all smells of the anti Jewish hatred of pre WW2. They try to hide it as "anti-Israel". I do say "left", as most of the groups and people (including this one) are identified as left of center by others.

This is my opinion, you may of course disagree with how I see it.

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35thOVI +1

The Left has been scapegoating and attacking Israel in alliance with islamists for decades, and it's deep and nasty. You can see how deeply embedded this, as you say it's "air cover" for blaming the Jews, when I see thousands of high schoolers in the SF Bay Area marching in support of Hamas and chanting "Viva Viva Palestina!" This is being taught and promoted by the K-12 school system, by teachers who groom kids into leftist activism and moral confusion. It's a real problem.

Always someone attempting to take the moral high ground, but can you offer a solution?

Yes the best we can do is limit/mitigate the CD including non-combatants. Hamas targeted civilians. The IDF will not do anything close to what the Hamas, etc., butchers. IDF will avoid killing non-combatants. But in a MOUT insurgency CD/civilian losses is inevitable.

One that does not inflict unreasonable casualties on the Israelis and plays to Hamas strengths? A solution that is not wishful thinking?

Agreed, the more non-combatants killed by either side just plays into Hamas's narrative. E.g. the islamic jihad homemade rocket that landed in the hospital parking lot. With a small number of losses[yes losses occur in a conflict]. 30-40% of these Hamas, etc. homemade rockets fail. They may not even make it out of Gaza. And if it lands on a house in Gaza killing some civilians, Hamas blames the IDF. "Never let a good crisis go to waste." …

Have been done to by their teachers!

Yes, as Mao's "Lost Generation" the US and some other nations are suffering from that now, IMO. The woke left progressive socialist mob, and it's not only the immature children and their professors but actual adults. Drank all the *Cool aid* they were served and went looking for more.

Regardless of the long running Arab-Israel conflict. What Hamas did was nothing but evil. They will reap the whirlwind when they do go toe-to-toe with the IDF. They are not defenseless women, children, babies, etc. that can be slaughtered for sport, etc. The IDF is looking for payback … big time …

And what certain members of Congress are doing in the campuses, schools, streets are beyond wrong. The mob of them is inciting riots, attacks, etc. and lying … They should be punished somehow; they are not leaders but leftist progressive activists.

Dragon gunner

"Always someone attempting to take the moral high ground,"

Yes Always.. ALWAYS.
That's just the way I try to my life its not always easy sometimes i fail but I always try.
I have a code a moral compass if you like.
Part of that code involves the protection of every woman,child & old person in my field of vision, this I'm willing to die over, I've made my pease with that,this to me is what it means to be a man.

"but can you offer a solution?"

That's a trick question as I don't have all the information to hand

"One that does not inflict unreasonable casualties on the Israelis"

One is to many.

"and plays to Hamas strengths? A solution that is not wishful thinking?"

schools, hospitals and religious buildings then they are fair targets plays to hamas strengthen's by the court of public opinion it only alienates Israel from other liberal democracy's

"I doubt we will see Israelis deliberate targeting of Palestinian civilians, rape, hostage taking, posting war crime videos to the net and rejoicing in it."

I doubt we will see that either

"They do not compare to Hamas in the slightest!"

That's dependent on how they conduct them self's

"Hamas is 100% responsible for civilian deaths if they use them as shields."

I find this statement disgusting, childish and morally reprehensible it makes me think that when you accused me of Always attempting to take the moral high ground That this was ment as an insult.

(Bill this last part of my post is not a personal attack but an attack on the statement)

35iov
"I am not advocating for intentional civilian casualties. Israel will try to avoid them as much as possible. But sadly they will happen. I will not hold the IDF responsible… they did not want this."

I'm with you up to a point when mistakes are made i will not blame.
Anything else personally i will take on a case by case basis

" this I'm willing to die over, I've made my pease with that,this to me is what it means to be a man."

I doubt this to be true but I award you points for dramatic flare…

"That's a trick question as I don't have all the information to hand"-Quartermaster

Standard tactic for Brits on this forum to avoid direct questions, complain there is not enough information or too many variables to respond, but you sure like to have your opinions…

"I find this statement disgusting, childish and morally reprehensible it makes me think that when you accused me of Always attempting to take the moral high ground That this was ment as an insult."-Quartermaster

Hamas is 100% responsible for the deaths of civilians if they use them as shields! Are you suggesting otherwise? What is disgusting about this statement or childish or morally reprehensible? Are you attempting to award yourself some moral high ground again?

"Bill this last part of my post is not a personal attack but an attack on the statement)"-Quartermaster

Don't worry Quartermaster I will not complain to Bill. However your entire last part was a personal attack but nice attempt to spin doctor it as something else.

"I doubt this to be true but I award you points for dramatic flare…"

Your opinion on this matter is irrelevant

"Standard tactic for Brits on this forum to avoid direct questions, complain there is not enough information or too many variables to respond, but you sure like to have your opinions…"

What's my nationality got to do with it? and its not a tactic just the standard response from any student of military history.
As I said trick question

"Hamas is 100% responsible for the deaths of civilians if they use them as shields! Are you suggesting otherwise?""

I'm not suggesting anything, just stateing fact's
Your responsible for your own action's
If you open up on a bunch of civilians to kill a terrorist
That's on you.

" What is disgusting about this statement or childish or morally reprehensible?"

What's disgusting is the disregard for the lives of civilians.

What's childish is not taking responsiblty for ones own action's

What's morally reprehensible is using the rhetoric of terrorists.

"Are you attempting to award yourself some moral high ground again?"

Your the one who brought my morality into the conversation.
You seem to think its dirty word it really isn't you know.

"Don't worry Quartermaster I will not complain to Bill."

Thanks I really hate being sniped I'd rather have the whole post removed.

"However your entire last part was a personal attack but nice attempt to spin doctor it as something else."

No spin i honestly thought you were just angry (like we all are) and blowing off steam, but you seem to really believe that BS so I guess your right.

"Your opinion on this matter is irrelevant"- Quartermaster

I was thinking the same thing about your opinion.

"What's my nationality got to do with it? and its not a tactic just the standard response from any student of military history."

I see Brits using this tactic in many topics over the last 20 years on TMP to avoid questions they do not want to answer. So students of military history avoid questions, complain about lack of information or too many variables? What logic did you use to arrive at that conclusion? You seem to think you are a student of military history I will pose my original question. Do you have a solution or are you going to caterwaul about trick questions and rant about how morally superior you are?

"What's disgusting is the disregard for the lives of civilians."-Quartermaster

Do you have a solution? and please no caterwauling about trick questions.

"What's childish is not taking responsiblty for ones own action's"-Quartermaster

When have I failed to do that at any point in this topic? I think you just wanted to hurl an insult that was devoid of thought or meaning.

"What's morally reprehensible is using the rhetoric of terrorists."- Quartermaster

When did I quote Hamas or Islamic Jihad?

"Your the one who brought my morality into the conversation.
You seem to think its dirty word it really isn't you know."

I think you need to reread all of your statements and see how morally superior you think you are. It is easy to have emotion induced high morals, solutions are tough and require thought. I offered military solutions to the problem, and you offered moral indignation.  

The two US women released by Hamas was buying time. And trying to look like they are not really, really bad guys. However, I am glad they are free, of course. Regardless, Hamas's, etc. actions on 07 Oct. 2023, etc. is beyond belief of anyone with a rational mind or not suffering from some mental illness, etc.

Bottom line … Hamas must pay. This kind of monstrous massacre cannot be excused. And cannot be allowed to stand. There must be some punitives, etc. This is the 21st Century. What Putin is doing in Ukraine and what Hamas did in Israel is completely unacceptable, etc. Along with Iran who is suppling both Putin and even more so Hamas. Iran is the head of the snake …

Those in US and other nations protesting in the streets in support of Palestine and having pictures of what Hamas did to Israelis, etc. is another case of left, woke, progressives is the height of hypocrisy.

The members of the US Congress supporting Hamas's actions and lies and want a cease fire. Shows how much they are out of touch with reality. This is not how members of Congress should act. These hypocrites are not leaders. Some want them expelled from Congress. I only hope that would happen.

The US Gov't from the top down is a joke to the rest of the world. As well as many Americans feel the same. These activists who think they are in Congress are adding to the world view of the USA's poor, woke, incompetent, leftwing, feckless, etc. Gov't from the top down.

"I offered military solutions to the problem, and you offered moral indignation."

All you offered is the mass murder of civilians and you call that a military solution? Sounds more like a final solution.

I can't take you seriously any more.

"All you offered is the mass murder of civilians and you call that a military solution? Sounds more like a final solution."-Quartermaster

I never advocated mass murder of civilians. Nazi reference is cheap and overdone you can do better than that Quartermaster…

" I can't take you seriously any more."- Quartermaster

Door is open when you have something that is not strawman, cherry picking, moral grandstanding and plain outright lies.

"The US Gov't from the top down is a joke to the rest of the world."

Well count your self lucky you don't have the UK government! We ran out of prison spaces the other day and we are faced with real prospect of violant offenders
Inluding rapest going free.
I don't think the damage done to this country by our government can be undone under the current system.

"Nazi reference is cheap and overdone you can do better than that Quartermaster…"

You know what your right!
I apologize

But I still can't take you seriously

Dragon Gunner- please calm down over the 'Brits' point.

There are very many of us Brits with a proper moral compass who perfectly understand that it is only Israel's military power and its will to use that power, that stands between it and a second holocaust. There is absolutely no comparison between Israel and those who would destroy it.

If anyone wants to imagine what would happen to Israel and the Jews who live there, if Israel was not as powerful as it is- there is a thought experiment you need to try. It is especially good if you are a cat person. Imagine if your cat was your current size and strength, and imagine if you were your cat's current size and strength. Then think about what would happen to you. The horrible end you are contemplating is exactly what would happen to Israel if was not strong enough. So it's all very well for the likes of hamas and its still numerous apologists to whine about Israeli imperialism and oppression, but that's just a shabby cover for frustrated, unfulfilled genocidal intent.

I am not Jewish and I have no friends in Israel. Actually, most of the Israelis I've met I haven't taken to- finding them direct to the point of rudeness (at least to my quaint English sensibilities). But what hamas did a couple of weeks ago is just the veil slipping to show its true, and absolutely repugnant, face. It's that horrifying glimpse of what the cat would do to you if your strengths were reversed.

Very sadly, although hamas absolutely is a terrorist group (officially sanctioned as such by several governments including the UK), it is also the democratically elected governing authority in Gaza- so brought to power by the same means as the nazis in 1933. Yet while hamas has been much more explicit about its desire to destroy Israel than the nazis were about their intent, a significant majority of the Gazan population still voted for that platform.

Yes hamas was democraticly elected in 2006 but with 40% of the population being 14 or under and 20% 24 and under 60% of the population would be to young to vote in that election if you assume that women didn't have the vote that percentage is even larger.

Faltaning Gaza as dragon gunner sujests will only sow the seeds of the next generation of gazan hamas teroists

I've known plenty of Israelis over the years, and they ARE direct- it's definitely an Israeli cultural thing. They live in a tough neighborhood, and it's not uncommon to visit a town within artillery range of the Lebanese or Gaza border to find people filling in holes from last night's rocket attack.

But no army on earth, including the US and British armies (which take civilian casualties seriously) goes to the lengths the IDF has traditionally gone to to avoid civilian casualties. And no other army is as complete an expression of the society it protects. So yeah, blunt to and sometimes past the point of rudeness, sure- tough negotiators, definitely. But at the end of the day, a civilized, modern democracy whose response will not be disproportionate or uncontrolled.

There's a lot to admire in Israeli history- a lot of the ideas about proportionality and purity of arms were developed at points when the Israeli state was in mortal peril. It's really something that they could emphasize moral conduct at moments when they might easily have cited the risk as a reason for all kinds of misconduct. The twentieth century is full of counter-examples; I think the Israelis deserve considerable credit for deliberately staking out a different course.

Well count your self lucky you don't have the UK government! We ran out of prison spaces the other day and we are faced with real prospect of violant offenders
Inluding rapest going free.

We have a similar situation with liberal woke judges, district attorneys, etc. who were put in office by far-left, woke, liberals' money. E.g. George Soros … They let criminals out on the street to commit crimes again. Including murder and rape. Law Enforcement was vilified. Resulting in a massive shortage of Police … I'm glad I'm well armed …

I don't think the damage done to this country by our government can be undone under the current system.

Same here. The current US leadership has let about 8 million illegal aliens cross the Southern border. Bringing with them criminals, terrorists, drugs, human trafficking, etc. Our Southern border is ordered to be that way by our liberal, woke Gov't. Where are these illegal aliens going to live ? Who is going to feed them ? Where are they going to get medical assistance, etc., etc. ?

One of the worst liberal, woke, left wing progressive activist that was elected to to Congress. Thought it would be a good idea if the USA took in 1 million Palestinians. Won't happen of course. But the simple thought someone in our federal gov't actually said it is what is concerns me.

So, by adding another 1 million refugees, who may include terrorists, how is that going to be any different than the 8 million illegal aliens already here ? What do you do with 8 million or more illegal aliens/refugees. That came here since the new US Leadership came into power almost in a 3 year period ?

When new US leaders get elected in a little over a year. What are they going to do with 8 million illegal aliens. It will take a major effort to start to try rounding them up and sending them back to where they came from. And it will take years upon years to accomplish … if ever …

I have nothing against immigrants … but they have to do it legally and seriously vetted. E.g. So far this year the USA has captured 156 on the terrorist watch list since about Jan. 2021. Who knows how many were not captured ?