"Hamas vs Israel... again" Topic

SBminisguy, in Russia, a third of the population are Muslims living in traditionally Islamic regions. So the presence of Russian-speaking Muslims among Muslim terrorists is a completely natural phenomenon. Similar terrorists have carried out large-scale terrorist attacks in Russia many times. ISIS included entire battalions of Chechen Islamists expelled from Russia. It is quite possible that some of them joined other terrorist organizations.

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As a result of the Hamas attack, four Russian citizens were killed and six were captured.

"Natural phenomenon," interesting choice of words. Explains a few things. Quite a few things, really.

@McKinistry

Not true. Joe McCarthy was a vigorous defender of the Nazi's of Kampfgruppe Pieper

Boy, talk about reaching for it! McCarthy wasn't in Congress during WW2, there was no wide spread support for the American Bund on US universities or elsewhere, and this happened after the war. While it shows he had some serious issues it is not a relevant counter example.

Nine Pound Round – I am sorry you thought I was offended. I was joking around a bit. I have an odd sense of humor. I took no offense. No harm – no foul … 👍👍

And yes thank you for that clarification … Yes I understand what you are saying. 😎

As a result of the Hamas attack, four Russian citizens were killed and six were captured.

And yet Putin has failed to condemn Hamas.

He did not condemn it, but there are no rallies in support of Hamas in Russia and are not expected.
There are too many old mutual grievances and bloodshed in interreligious conflicts… There are a lot of Muslims in Russia and one has to be extremely careful in such actions.

Turkey's Behavior in Light of Hamas Attacks Is Appalling

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Russia, North Korea expanding military partnership, White House says

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Armand

And yet Putin has failed to condemn Hamas.

It took a while for the Kremlins to realize that additional chaos offers opportunities, but also risks. This leads me to believe they also were caught off guard and their friends in Hamas and Iran didn't tell them everything they needed to know to properly assess the situation a few weeks earlier, except for the usual agenda item: "Before I forget, next month we'll have planned another little fireworks display over Israel."

As far as can be seen, the official line is to remain neutral, blame the U.S., and moderately ridicule those Jews who turned their backs on Russia because of the invasion of Ukraine, according to the motto, "See, that's what you get."
Blame the victim.
Otherwise, they offer themself as a mediator, which seems incredibly dumb considering the lack of open condemnation of an extremely depraved terrorist attack.
I mean, denouncing decapitated babies probably won't lose the approval of the country's own Muslims.
Though…
Personally, I rather assume that he wants to punish Israel and especially Netanjahu a little bit for the lack of "moral" support or at least neutrality in connection with the invasion of Ukraine. While Israel is not participating in the sanctions, their moral support is quite clear with Ukraine.

I highly doubt the Israelis favor Putin's mediation and Chechen peacekeepers in Gaza over a U.S. aircraft carrier group off the coast of the Levant.

Face it, Putin is just a little schemer with an admittedly virtually inexhaustible arsenal of human consumables.
Those who fall for him have only themselves to blame.

@SBminisguy

I still don't share your views on the left as a whole.
That the left all too often allows itself to be made into useful idiots of the extreme left (see as extreme examples the Bolshevist revolution in Russia in 1919) or extreme Islam (see the Iranian revolution in 1977) in order to be the first to be liquidated after seizing power is not new, and anyone who denies this pattern is either a liar, naive, or stupid.
In particular, leftist intellectuals from the 1930s to the 1970s had to swallow the bitter toad that 'practicing' communists needed them only as instruments to seize power.
And yet, in the '90s communism was more or less gone.

Unfortunately, such phenomena can also be observed on other parts of the political spectrum.
To stay out of U.S. domestic politics, I give as an example the disastrous role of German conservatives and German churches in the rise of National Socialism in Germany.
Though more often they were not liquidated after the 'right-ful' revolution, but happily integrated themself into the 'Volkskorper', exceptions prove the rule.

Now, as for the current uproar in Islamic societies, the worldwide pro-Palestine protests and riots, they would be more credible if they were part of a history of previous protests by these societies and organizations against injustices worldwide.
That they only flare up when it comes to Israel speaks volumes.
And pro-Hamas, against Jews as Jews, or for atrocities is not an option at all.

As for the Palestinian population of the Gaza Strip and their reaction to Hamas' atrocity attacks on people in Israeli territory, I point out that 65% are under 24 years of age, the median age is 18, and de facto power has been with Hamas since 2006, who carry out similar atrocities in their secret torture cellars against anyone who gets in the way of their goals.
These people certainly did not pursue social studies at 'Our Lady of Good Counsel High School' in Maryland and their TV programs are full of anti-Israel, anti-semitic propaganda from early chilhood on.
I wouldn't be surprised about children's cartoons made by Palestinian TV producers and broadcasted, depicting exactly such depravity as seen in this attack.
Right now, Hamas is trying to stop fleeing Palestinians from leaving Gaza.
However, not too intensively, they have more to do with taking up their positions and preparing for death.

Mjkerner
I apologise for beening Kurt with you.
"when you have so many on your borders all hating you and trying to exterminate you"

Jorden & Egypt are both trading partners with Israel.

Egypt warned Israel about the attack.

"try balancing them off against each other forever."

From article.
"The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority's West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state."

To be clear Abbas is in favour of a two state solution,
hamas are not as we can see from the atrocities they have committed.

So weaken PA of the west bank
Landgrab
"Netanyahu Says Will Begin Annexing West Bank if He Wins Israel Election"
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"Not going to work because you can't appease Communists or terrorists"

Tell that IRA the UDA or the ANC.

"ROE like the US has always employed, starting in Vietnam, is deadly."

I'm sorry I know very little about Vietnam war.

"It must be Total War if you are going to into the breach against either! Thankfully, Israel and the IDF are apparently going to start employing that policy on these animals."

This statement is why I was kurt with you your straying into "final solution" tritory their I should have taken it as reactionary language.
Again I apologise

If I can explain I lost almost all my family in death camps during ww2 for being cosiderd sub human due to ethnicity the only ones to survive were Communist partisan's.

but there are no rallies in support of Hamas in Russia and are not expected

At the moment few expect to see too many exciting protests in Russia in the near future.

It is unlikely that such actions would not have taken place if the Russian authorities were interested in them.

Destabilization in the Muslim world is not in Russia's interests. Islamic terrorists are as much enemies for Russia as they are for the West. Today they are fighting against Israel, and tomorrow they will shoot at Russians in the Caucasus or Moscow… All this has happened before.
As for Russia's participation in the negotiations, I do not know of another country that would have such centuries-old experience of maintaining a certain balance between people of different faiths. But if you don't want to use Russian experience, then don't. These will be your problems…
And now a new precedent is being created (as in its time with the attack on Yugoslavia). And in the future, various countries will use similar actions in other similar situations. You should never forget about this.

I take it, that is what they call chutzpah.

Subject: Minnesota Woman Who Advocated for Palestinian Rights and Protested Against Israeli Actions Killed by Hamas Alongside Husband | The Gateway Pundit | by Jim Hᴏft

Definition of irony

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Minnesota Woman Who Advocated for Palestinian Rights and Protested Against Israeli Actions Killed by Hamas Alongside Husband

Similar to Malcom Caldwell and the Khmer Rouge:

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"[T]he useful idiots, the leftists who are idealistically believing in the beauty of the Soviet socialist or Communist or whatever system, when they get disillusioned, they become the worst enemies. That's why my KGB instructors specifically made the point: never bother with leftists. Forget about these political prostitutes. Aim higher. […] They serve a purpose only at the stage of destabilization of a nation. For example, your leftists in the United States: all these professors and all these beautiful civil rights defenders. They are instrumental in the process of the subversion only to destabilize a nation. When their job is completed, they are not needed any more. They know too much. Some of them, when they get disillusioned, when they see that Marxist-Leninists come to power—obviously they get offended—they think that they will come to power. That will never happen, of course. They will be lined up against the wall and shot."

Yuri Alexandrovich Bezmenov

However, I do not see his first assertion confirmed, about disillusioned intellectuals becoming the worst enemy.
Where he speaks of intellectual prostitution, of course, he himself had an interest in selling himself well.
That's why I take what he said with a grain of salt.

Not to mention that revolutions tend to eat their children.

Yesterday saw few attacks I am aware of. One successful Islamic attack in France and one foiled in France. Also one in China.

Saw this just pop up

Subject: Louvre Museum in Paris Evacuated Following Reported Bomb Threat


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Subject: Israeli Forces Kill Hamas Commander Behind Terror Attack; Freed in 2011 Prisoner Exchange


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Subject: Fringe-Left Groups Express Support for Hamas's Invasion and Brutal Attacks in Israel | ADL


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Essen, Germany 2014:

Anti-Semitic riots after left-wing youth demonstration – On Youtube

I happened to be in that town that day for business reasons and was leaving the train station when parts of the demonstrators stormed toward the synagogue, which is about 800 meters away.

Of course, the leftist organizers of the demonstration had not considered the run on the synagogue.
Those morons will probably never learn.
Nor the police, for that matter

You can believe me, they were in a very, very big hurry to chase the demonstrators to stop them.
The synagogue is no longer used as a temple, is a museum, and has police protection, but still.

Funnily enough, the square in front of the station is called Willy-Brandt-Square.
Willy Brandt, a social democrat and later German Chancellor, known for his 'Ostpolitik', which had its justification at the time, but its blind continuation with the Russian Federation proved to be a disaster in retrospect, and 'Kniefall von Warschau' as a gesture of humility, was a socialist in his youth.
Somehow I don't think he would have been that fond of what happened there.
He's probably still spinning in his grave.

@Arjuna

And yet, in the '90s communism was more or less gone.

I think that with the fall of the USSR we have since seen a rise in what is actually Socialism's other evil ideological child -- Fascism. Still Socialism that requires centralized State control of the economy, but indirectly as opposed to directly like under Communism. If you look at the Democratic Socialists of America's platform it would be hard to tell it apart from many Fascist party platforms of the 1930s.

Why do I say this? Because making money does no = Capitalism.

China's "State Managed Capitalism" = Fascism. The CCP may still be called the Chinese Communist Party but they smoothly transitioned from Communism to Fascism in the 1990s, allowing for-profit business activity so long as the businesses did the Party's bidding and business leaders joined the Party. And if they step out of line, like Jack Ma did, they get arrested and rehabilitated and a Party-compliant industrialist placed in charge. Same thing Fascists in Italy and Germany did in the 1930s. Not to mention a Big Brother surveillance State and Social Credit system that Hitler could only have dreamed of.

All Western governments are now flirting with Fascism and Social Credit scores to control their populaces. What we see with the many State policies is Corporatism -- the heart of Fascism. They have co-opted industrialists in GE, GM and other major corporations who implement Leftist policies (green energy, electric cars, CFC light bulbs, etc.) through their corporations and get preferential treatment and profit from their attachment to the State while competitors are disadvantaged. The Unions have become an instrument of State power and are wedded fully and firmly to the Administration as well. This, my friends, is Fascism. The Statist-Totalitarian core is tempered by the American legal system so far, but look at the expansive use of the Administrative State and Lawfare via the legal system to harass dissenters via the IRS, via EPA raids on their businesses, via a storm of lawsuits and claims to silence them. Jordan Peterson being ordered into re-education in Canada, Trump being harassed with an endless array of criminal charges, Canadian Truckers being cut off from the Banking system, the American FBI doing armed no-knock raids on prominent Pro-Life activists. All intended to intimidate and control.

Fascism is right here in our faces, and naturally supported by Intellectuals, who, while calling it something other than it is, are always drawn to ideologies that place them in control of everything.

Does anyone have anything to say about the military aspects of this thread's topic? How will the IDF proceed? Is there any hope for the hostages once the fighting escalates? It seems very likely that there will be massive civilian casualties. Am I wrong about this? Will this rally other terrorist attackers?

Given the dense urban setting, how long will it take to clear so many buildings? Many will likely be gone, but rubble is also cover. The whole thing looks like a grim fight…

Half a year?

Advancing by mouse-holing between houses to get out of the way of snipers, IEDs, suicide bombers, ATMs, rocket-propelled grenades, drones?
An enemy that knows every square inch there and has been preparing for years, like the attack last week?
More or less all hostages dead, some executed ISIS style?
Remember the videos?
Hundreds of Israeli soldiers dead?
Tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians dead?
If you can call them civilians for long, a lot of them will be enemy fighters soon.
Public uproar in the Islamic world with incalculable consequences?
More terror?
Now, that's a given.

The US will have their backs I suppose should Iran or the other lunatics open second and third fronts?

I don't know.
But I have already said that I think it is an inevitable mistake.
As far as I can see, Israel wants blood.
It will get blood, but not only that of its enemies.

Tort, sort of like the Ukraine right now. The Ukraine is like 1916 and pretty stalemated.

Right now artillery fire and bombing. A few minor feelers. I still think Israel will stall for awhile and hope the lack of resources and pounding wears them down some. Doubtful

I believe the hostages were dead or slaves the minute they got over the boarder. Maybe some associated with countries they don't hate will make it out.

Subject: Dozens demanding US end Israel aid arrested outside Schumer's NYC home


Ok 2 things. 1) How can Jews support the people who butchered other Jews!? 2) observation: They did not arrest the pro-abortion protesters in front of the Supreme Court justices homes. Why is this different?

"Hundreds of people gathered at the Grand Army Plaza for the rally, organized by Jewish Voice for Peace — a self-described anti-Zionist activist group — before marching a few blocks to the senator's Park Slope residence and blocking the street."

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They did not arrest the pro-abortion protesters in front of the Supreme Court justices homes. Why is this different?

According to the link, it looks like they got them for blocking the street:

"Assembly members Zohran Kwame Mamdani (D-Queens) and Marcela Mitaynes (D-Brooklyn) were among those arrested at the rally, sources said.

They will be issued summonses for blocking vehicular traffic, the sources said."

Does anyone have anything to say about the military aspects of this thread's topic?

Under Israel's Declaration of War, the IDF is in control of all military strategy, and the PM has said they intend to end Hamas as an organization, root and branch. They've already put Gaza under siege to raise the pressure on Hamas, deny them amenities and even get people to leave. Seems like they are looking at a multi-year campaign that will see Israel end the 18-year experiment in Palestinian self-rule, reoccupy and demilitarize Gaza.

Will they go swallow the frog one gulp at a time -- take an area, consolidate and fortify and then push forward? Or do they think doing a more conventional invasion will meet their goals?

My speculation is similar to Arjuna's, though I expect the intense use of drones to help clear urban areas and spot and destroy Hamas tunnels and spider holes. Hamas will no doubt flush unarmed rockthrowing kids out against the IDF hoping for a few martyrs they can score PR points with.

Well it looks like even the Lebanese Army shelled IDF positions in the North. Another report said the Syrians fire mortars. Plus Hezbollah is firing AT missiles at IDF positions, rockets, and have even made a few border crossings. I think this is only fellow moslems trying help Hamas in tying up some IDF units. I highly doubt any of those Arab forces will try to make a determined coordinated attack. They are basically a diversion to keep the some of the IDF on the Northern border.

As we know IDF Spec Ops already has entered Gaza. I'd think looking for the hostages. Plus. call in IAF Smart bombs. On known or suspected Hamas, islamic jihad, etc., locations. I.e. leadership [already at least 2 Hamas leaders have been killed so far], rocket making factories, any supply & troop concentrations, etc. Prepping the battlefield for the upcoming attack into Gaza. But I'd think this is going to be MOUT with insurgents. Slow and determined, but a lot of firepower brought in when needed. CD will probably not be a priority. Few Hamas prisoners will be taken. They want to do to Hamas as we did to ISIS. Mitigate the threat to the point of being ineffective. I.e. killing most of them.

This has to be done. Not only eliminating Hamas, but maybe sending a message to Iran.

I keep thinking that Hamas must have known what could happen, would likely happen. I hope there are no more surprises in store from them when the IDF rolls in.

We will see when the IDF goes in Gaza full force. But I think it will a slow MOUT with insurgents' fight. Then we will know if Hamas had made a mistake. But a lot of people are on both side are probably going to die regardless…

Again, just to make sure we're documenting who's on which side, the latest version of the progressive Nicene Creed:

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Aaaaaaand the chickens of cancel culture come home to roost:

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Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch….

The Gazans are lucky they're fighting the IDF, a lot of us would have been only too happy to give Gaza twenty kilotons of urban renewal….

Subject: What Israel Will Face in Gaza | Foreign Affairs


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Foreign frickin' Affairs…..I have a vivid memory of coming across a bunch of ten year old copies of Foreign Affairs in 1999: it was like finding a time capsule of the stalest pre-Wall-Falling conventional wisdom imaginable.

The Israelis have the skill, technology and capability to demolish Gaza without hideous losses, and they'll do it. It's a telling statement that after more than seventy years of conflict, the Israelis' worst day (in terms of numbers of casualties) of fighting Arabs came after a surprise attack against unprepared civilians. Hamas is not suddenly going to become an elite fighting force: they chose to attack civilians because they had no chance in a straight-up fight against the IDF. I just hope the Israelis don't let the bogus Western European/American university/media/NGO noise machine stop them short of leaving the place a smoking ruin.

By surprises I meant a WMD, passed along to Hamas from one of the usual suspects, to inflict some real damage on the concentrated IDF. But maybe I don't know what I am talking about…

Just in case anybody not reading FA wants to know where I got my estimations:

2014 Gaza War – On Wikipedia

I just multiplied the six weeks by four and added 20% for a good measure, because Operation Protective Edge was limited in scope.

These are 66 of the 67 IDF soldiers KIA:
Israel's fallen in Operation Protective Edge – On Times of Israel

With the dead Palestinians, there is the problem, that one man's dead civilian is another man's dead fighter.
Especially after some time of fighting.

"You're going to pay a price for every bloody thing you do and everything you don't do. You don't get to choose to not pay a price. You get to choose which poison you're going to take. That's it."
― Jordan B. Peterson

While I preach the same, albeit a bit harsher, because I don't have to face professional academic boards in some intellectual guerilla war, I came to the same conclusion reading Nietzsche and the early Ernst Junger decades ago.

What must be done, must be done.
What has been done, can't be undone.

I think the IDF will methodically dis-assemble Gaza until Hamas is destroyed. Their casualties will be minor.

"Does anyone have anything to say about the military aspects of this thread's topic?"- Tortorella

Israel has warned the civilian population to evacuate Gaza. Going forward there is no need for a "knock" as they call it on any building they are about to demolish. Gaza will become a free fire zone. So, when a Hamas fighter clutching his AK-47 wearing his suicide martyr head band starts shooting at Israelis forces from an apartment bedroom window. The Israelis will probably level the building instead of entering it and engaging Hamas on their terms. Hamas will be crushed under tons of concrete along with any hostages or civilians in that building. I am predicting the systematic destruction of Gaza block by block. Rubble will provide some cover but, the IDF will steam roll Hamas wherever they choose to stand and fight.

At the end there will be a huge humanitarian disaster that will kill more Palestinians than actual fighting. Hamas will throw down their weapons and attempt to hide in the masses of refugees. The big question is how Israel will deal with Hamas rising from the ashes like a phoenix every few years, reconstituted with a new generation of terrorists. If the Palestinians think the Gaza strip was a giant open-air prison, they won't like what it will become when Israel has leveled it.

I doubt it will become a wider war.

1. Hezbollah will jump in, but it won't mean much in how this plays out.

2. Iran will let their Palestinian Arab pawns die while they watch from the sideline. (Iran won't make a move until they have nukes…)

3. The other players in the region will sit this one out, the fate of the Gaza Strip does not advance any of their endgame goals.

The problem is that Hamas has already won its war. More precisely, he has already achieved all the goals that he set… You don't think that the terrorists were seriously planning to defeat Israel now? No, now exactly what they planned is happening.
The higher the number of victims, the better it will be for Hamas. Each terrorist killed will be replaced by several others. To avenge the dead children, parents, wives. And then the children of those who died will grow up… This music will be eternal.
Opponents need to be divided and pitted against each other, not united and motivated.

Send them buses to transport civilians, find those who are ready to accept and accommodate refugees. This is what will take away Hamas's weapons… At least take out the women and children. Place men who do not want to take part in the battle in filtration camps and conduct a thorough check for their involvement in terrorism.
If Hamas openly obstructs this, it will lose any sympathy.

"You don't think that the terrorists were seriously planning to defeat Israel now?"- Cuprum

Strawman argument Cuprum nobody suggested that was possible. How did you arrive at that conclusion?

"More precisely, he has already achieved all the goals that he set"-Cuprum

I am well aware how the circle of hate works Cuprum.

"Send them buses to transport civilians, find those who are ready to accept and accommodate refugees. This is what will take away Hamas's weapons…"- Cuprum

Who will take them?

Subject: FBI Director Chris Wray warns of spike in reported domestic threats linked to Israel's war against Hamas | Fox News


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exactly what they planned is happening

Absolutely, it looks like a well-set trap.
The atrocities look just part spontaneous, with some artistic freedom there, but were planned and executed as ordered.
They butchered for effect.
Actually, I'm surprised there weren't more smartphone vids made and released by them.
I already mentioned the PR horror videos of the IS.
But maybe they just didn't expect such a big operational success.

The point is, that the Israelis also know this.
But they are still definitely fed up.
You can't escape these images, they inevitably trigger visceral reactions.
The problem is, that Hamas may have gotten more than it bargained for.
As you often say, we'll see what comes of it.

I wouldn't assume that Hamas is acting logically. They seem to believe that Allah will intervene on their behalf, or that they are helping to fulfill Allah's plans.

By surprises I meant a WMD, passed along to Hamas from one of the usual suspects, to inflict some real damage on the concentrated IDF.

But would Hamas poison their own land to get revenge?

Gas, as used in Syria maybe?

The prevailing wind comes from west and the windist time of year starts around late October

Well, I would be happy to hear I am on an unlikely track!