"Hamas vs Israel... again" Topic

FWIW … I think Gaza only ever had about 2-3 million in their total population. I don't think they are all terrorists …

Legion over 2 yes. I tend to believe her, she was the one being held hostage for months and went through all they did in October and afterward.

Sometimes I wonder how different the world might be if the US and Western Europe had not recognized and supported an independent Israel.

I wonder how the world would be different if the Allies and USSR had not forcibly de-Nazified Germany after WW2…I mean, Hamas are functionally the same as Nazis. Totalitarian zealots who want to rule the world and kill all the Jews, and who run their society from top to bottom (from who can have a shop, propagandizing little kids with extreme racism and violence, travel, media, everything) with an iron fist and are dedicated to the glories of war and conquest. In fact there are historic ties between Islamists and the Nazis. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and spiritual co-leader of the Muslim Brotherhood traveled to Berlin to aid the Nazis with propaganda, and helped organize the SS Handschar in the Balkans who butchered non-Muslims, and the SS Arab Legion.

So how do you de-Nazifi the Gaza?

I tend to believe her, she was the one being held hostage for months and went through all they did in October and afterwards.

Yes, I don't really doubt her, as she was there. And every Hamas member traded for these hostages will be back on the battlefield sooner or later. But either way, those numbers just mean that in both the long & short run this conflict is long from over …

The Palestinian crowds were threating, jeering, etc. these former hostages as Hamas loaded them up into vehicles to be traded to the IDF. It was worse when they were first captured. I see payback being a standard all the way around.

Another interesting question is what if there was no Holocaust. Would there be a modern day, Isreal?

Without a Holocaust, no I don't think there would be a modern Israel. You can't de-Nazi Gaza. As long as Israel exists Many Moslems in the Middle East will hate it. Their reason to exist is to destroy Israel. Numerous terrorist organizations, Palestinians that dream of driving the Jews into the sea and various governments that use this hatred to their own means.
Add to this the new Woke-Marxism that see whites as the oppressor and the Palestinians/terrorists as oppressed and this problem is never going away.

Add to this the new Woke-Marxism that see whites as the oppressor and the Palestinians/terrorists as oppressed and this problem is never going away.

Yes they couldn't start a revolution with the classic "Haves v. Have Nots"…

But the new angle where Whites are oppressors and everyone else oppressed. Seems to have been the play to gain some yardage. Too many that drank that Kool Aid, are supported by many in the media and the US gov't. "You can't free a fish from water" …

The Gazans took the support from Iran. They choose poorly. Gaza is in ruins, thousands of dead, mostly from Gaza. Hamas just said they will do a bigger Oct 7. Does anyone think the Palestinians under Hamas control will be allowed to go back to Gaza as it was on Oct 6 ? The Israelis have been dealing with this problem for a very long time. IMO, the Israelis will no more leave their nation than every one of the Europeans and African Americans in the USA go back to Europe, Africa, etc.

Oct 7 sealed the Gazans fate … and it was by their own hands … With support of Iran. Who also has to be dealt with harshly.

Okay I am confused here. Trump ran on putting America first and being more isolationist. He called people who disagreed with this warmongers.

Now he may send soldiers to Gaza and then wants the US to own it and rebuild it which would cost billions of not a trillion or more dollars? How is this saving the US money? Cutting the cost of government? Minding our own busy?

I do not get this.

Grattan54 I watched it.

Not exactly correct, at least money wise. But yes we would take control. His idea stated was outside the box if nothing else….

But I disagree with putting us in the zone, nor with nation building. We have tried that before… does not work in Muslim countries.

I want to hear more details from him on this. Not my cup of tea.

+1 Nine pound

I think that's fair; it is understandable as a negotiating position.

I'm not sure a lot of countries want to accept the inhabitants of Gaza, who have always had the reputation of being more radicalized than those on the West Bank; this would complicate the problem if they had to be found new homes, but also raises the pucker factor in places like Egypt and Jordan, which would be the most logical recipients (and also incentivizes them to help find a constructive solution).

I think that's fair. The ask is so outsized that it seems likely to be a negotiating position. It's probably one designed to raise the pucker factor of the intended recipients of the inhabitants, who have long been notoriously more radicalized than those of the West Bank.

As long as the Gazans/Hamas want to kill all the Jews in Isreal and "reclaim" what they say is their land. Nothing will change. The Gazans don't like the POTUS's plan to rebuild Gaza. And many moslem nations do want it either …

So if this is the way they want it. They sealed their fate on 7 Oct. The forever war will continue. Gaza is a moonscape; they brought that into existence by their actions. If the US does nothing, as many want to happen. Only send support to Israel.

Who is going to rebuild Gaza ?

Who is going to pay for it ?

Will any of the nearby moslem Arab nations jump in ?

Who will control Gaza ?

Will rebuilding Gaza, which will take many years, only allow it again to become a haven for Hamas and other moslem terrorists ? To do another 7 Oct in the future as Hamas leadership is now promising ?

If the IDF has to occupy Gaza again. More will die on all sides. Hamas's War supported by Iran will continue.

Iran has to stop their support for Hamas. It also to be stopped from getting deployable nukes …

The future of Gaza is not only in their own hands but Iran's.

Without the US getting involved in some way, even if only monetarily nothing will happen save for more suffering and death. Again the ball is in the Gazan's hands …

+1 Nine Pound.

Pretty inhumane to force people to give up their homes and lives there in order for rich people to have resorts and condos.

Since when has Trump stuck to anything he said ? Latest idea is everything, and he will deny anything he said before that contradicts his latest idea.

Gratten and others, read through this. I read others this morning and this had more overall details. One thing to note, the US does not go in until all Palestinians are resettled elsewhere.

The concept is Gaza is rebuilt and made into a beach resort area, open to all except the Palestinians who previously lived there.

I can't imagine the Muslims of the ME want another Christian area. I'm wondering if this is method to get the rest of the world to rebuild Gaza. The more I am hearing, the more I believe this may well be the case. Saudi Arabia and France have already opposed it. 😉

Subject: Trump says ‘US will take over the Gaza Strip' — after relocating 'all' Palestinians


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That's a big caveat. Transferring 2 million Palestinians is a tall order. I'm pretty sure neither Jordan nor Egypt want them. Admittedly, both countries get a lot of funding from the US, but still, even with those pressure points, would they take them?

Notice the last paragraph, says the same thing I did. I'm willing to play this one out and visit it in the long term.

"Arguments in favor:

There is no way to solve the strategic problem Gaza poses. Gaza clearly poses a threat to Israel. It has also been a major challenge for the two-state solution. In theory, a Palestinian state could be non-contiguous, with the West Bank connected to Gaza via transportation infrastructure. But Gaza is also culturally different from the West Bank. And with a growing population in a small area, it has constant humanitarian problems.

Gaza has been so thoroughly destroyed by war that it is essentially uninhabitable. This is the argument that President Trump and Special Envoy Steve Witkoff used. A large percentage of the buildings in Gaza have been damaged or destroyed. The Hamas terror tunnels have also undermined the foundations and the utilities. Reconstruction, with 2 million people still living in the area, will take decades to complete.

The 20-year experiment in Palestinian governance of Gaza has been a miserable failure. Israel pulled out of Gaza completely in 2005. Palestinians responded by firing rockets at Israel, electing Hamas, and launching terror attacks, murdering thousands of Israelis, mostly civilians. Hamas still has an ideological hold on the local population, making future self-governance a risky proposition, and making war almost inevitable.

U.S. ownership of Gaza could be a massive strategic asset. The U.S. could turn Gaza into a thriving free trade zone, the so-called "Singapore of the Middle East" that Gaza could have, but never did, become after the Israeli disengagement of 2005. The U.S. could even turn Gaza into a new military base on the Mediterranean, lessening its dependence on Arab nations such as Qatar, which has in the past funded and sheltered Hamas.

A prosperous, coastal Gaza could be an economic engine for the region. Remove terror and poverty from Gaza, and you have a prime location, with warm (albeit humid) weather, excellent fishing, and a strategic location between Cairo and Jerusalem (and beyond). There really is no limit to the prosperity — and the beach resorts — that could result. It could be another Dubai, but on the Mediterranean. A blessing, instead of a curse.

Questions:

Where would the Gazans go? While President Trump seemed inclined to allow a minority of Palestinians to stay in Gaza, he also said that more than 75% of them should be resettled elsewhere. Egypt and Jordan have refused to take them, and no other country has stepped up to offer them a home — though the Israeli delegation in Washington seemed to believe that Indonesia, which wants a normalization agreement, could be an option.

Would U.S. troops be at risk? President Trump seemed to be open to the idea of U.S. troops being used to secure Gaza, at least for the short term. Hamas has largely been destroyed, but American soldiers could face the same risks that Israeli soldiers face — booby traps, roadside bombs, ambushes, and so on. The U.S. would likely be less restrained in Gaza than it was in, say, Iraq or Afghanistan, but few Americans have an appetite for war.

Who is going to pay for it? President Trump implied that wealthy Arab states would pay for removing the explosives, demolishing the ruins, and developing whatever comes next. But no Arab state has yet been willing to come forward. And Americans would certainly oppose spending taxpayer money on Gaza. Unless Israel is willing (and able) to resettle Gaza, it is unclear who cares about Gaza enough to plow money into the territory.

Is Trump's idea even legal? There are ample legal precedents for moving the population of a defeated, and genocidal, enemy far from where they can provoke future conflicts. Millions of ethnic Germans were relocated in the wake of the Nazis' defeat in the Second World War, for example. But some scholars would object to the transfer of an occupied population, citing the Fourth Geneva Convention (though it may not be applicable).

Would the idea be accepted as legitimate? Saudi Arabia responded immediately to Trump's proposal by objecting to it, and insisting that a Palestinian state be a condition for relations with Israel. Arab and Muslim organizations in the U.S. also rejected the idea. The Trump administration said that Palestinians would be better off elsewhere, which is likely true, but Palestinians have rarely made choices based on their own welfare.

All of these arguments will play out in the days to come. It is quite possible that Trump's proposal is simply a way of "shaking the box," and provoking other regional actors to step up and take responsibility for the Palestinians before he does. What is clear is that Trump has come down firmly in favor of Israel as the victor in the war Hamas started. That, in itself, is a significant diplomatic triumph for Netanyahu and for the Israeli people, after so much sacrifice."

Trump's stated positions are often to grab headlines and start negotiations. Denmark is now fortifying Greenland and is allowing more U.S. bases. Panama has withdrawn from China's Belt and Road initiative. Canada and Mexico are deploying troops to their borders to stop illegal immigration and both are taking actions to disrupt the fentanyl trade. Iran has issued orders to its terrorist proxies to stop targeting U.S. ships and servicemen.

Hamas cannot stay in Gaza if there is ever to be peace, but I doubt the U.S. will be moving in.

35thOVI,

Do you find it wrong to kick two million people out of their homes and then build a resort, I assume for foreigners, to come to and spend a holiday? Cuz that doesn't seem right to me at all. I don't see how this does not land the US into another war in the Middle East with more Americans dying and lots more money spent. Again, does not sound like "America First" to me. But, as you said, give it a chance to play out.

+1 Nine Pound

I think the forced removal of the Palestinians would be inhumane.

I think it sounds great in theory but its hard to imagine this happening. Making Gaza a western style resort sounds like adding another target for all the bad guys there. Not too mention the time, money and agreements it would take. Declaring victory does not unify the region. Shaking the box sounds more like it.

35th, I tend to agree with your idea that Trump's "shaking the box"- he's not asking for what he wants, but rather staking out an extreme position in the expectation that his counterparties will concede a lot to drag him off it.

Not so sure I know what a solution looks like- it's hard for me to imagine a mass population transfer. OTOH, the Palestinians have never yet been willing to acknowledge defeat, and we need a solution that stops short of "no Palestinians, on problem." It will be interesting to see what the other states are prepared to concede to get there. One of the reasons the Palestinians have been a problem for so long has been the continual willingness of some-state-or-another to fund terror and unrest as a thorn in the side of the US, the Israelis, or both.

His quick wins over the Canadians, Mexicans and Panamanians will strengthen his hand- that part of the world respects forceful success.

Yes Grattan and Tort, I do believe this is "box shaking", just like everything else so far. We will see what happens.

Interesting on the resettlement. First is that not how we got Israel again? Secondly, the Muslims themselves have practiced this in all their conquests in the past, if they did not just kill them when they refused to convert.

Actually practiced by most areas of the world for centuries, countries and empires alike.

I think it sounds great in theory but its hard to imagine this happening. Making Gaza a western style resort sounds like adding another target for all the bad guys there. Not too mention the time, money and agreements it would take. Declaring victory does not unify the region. Shaking the box sounds more like it.

I agree, though Trump's concept is that there would be no bad guys there. Gaza would be depopulated, rebuilt with Saudi and UAE and Quatar money and newcomers invited in to live, settle and work. The current people would be parceled out to the Arab states that say they support the Palestinians -- like Saudi Arabia, etc. If that happened, basically each Arab country would resettle like 100,000 people. Is this likely to happen? No, but as a big "box shaker" it sets a vision of a result with no Palestinians in Gaza. So how will that motivate people to make a deal?

Yeah, there were huge resettlements after both world wars- the exchanges of population between Greece and Turkey after WWI, and the large scale expulsions of Germans from Eastern Europe (and Poles moved from those parts of Eastern Poland that wound up in the USSR). But those were human catastrophes on a giant scale, and much as I get that the Palestinians need to experience defeat, those seem like they would create further problems.

Nine, I want to see this play out for a bit.

This thread went six directions, too, apparently.

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Here's a reasonably good short Wikipedia essay on the exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey in 1922-23, to put the Gaza idea in context. While I have little sympathy for the Gazans, this would be a pretty drastic approach, and may have been thinkable in 1922 only because of the sheer scale of events.

SB, unless Trump make s a resort out of Iran, I think the bad guys will still be around, stirring up new proxy activity and almost ready with nukes. It feels like the war is never over.

SB, unless Trump make s a resort out of Iran, I think the bad guys will still be around, stirring up new proxy activity and almost ready with nukes. It feels like the war is never over.

I gotchya, though Trump just did another "Box shaker" move re: Iran. He sets the tone by saying he wants Iran to be successful and doesn't want to totally obliterate it…

"I want Iran to be a great and successful Country, but one that cannot have a Nuclear Weapon. Reports that the United States, working in conjunction with Israel, is going to blow Iran into smithereens ARE GREATLY EXAGGERATED," Trump wrote.

"I would much prefer a Verified Nuclear Peace Agreement, which will let Iran peacefully grow and prosper. We should start working on it immediately, and have a big Middle East Celebration when it is signed and completed. God Bless the Middle East!"

So there's the presentation of two visions for Iran's leaders (and more importantly, its increasingly unhappy, restless young people) to reflect on.

* Vision 1: A prosperous, peaceful Iran

OR

* Vision 2: An Iran that is blown "into smithereens"

I despise Trump. But I think his(?) idea has merrits: the palestinians should realise, that they might get fuqq$% even harder if they don´t realize what kind of shitshow 7th of octobre was.
On the other hand, it is none of Trumps business to make Gaza a western style resort. You can sell a home, but you cannot sell your Heimat/ homeland

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Seems like the Egyptians may be stepping up.

Nine, and that is exactly why I believe Trump made that speech. Get the Muslims to rebuild Gaza. The last thing the Muslims want, is another Christian state over there.

35thOVI+1

Yep, he laid out an alternative vision -- Gaza under direct US management without the current Gazans, and after the predictable freak-out maybe we're seeing the Arab states move to "stop" that by taking over Gaza… guess anchoring works.

But how could Americans have been so STOOPID as to vote for Trump?

I think the best answer is a paraphrase of something Marlborough once said: if Trump is a fool, what will history say of those whom he defeated?

9lbs Rd +10

Get the Muslims to rebuild Gaza. The last thing the Muslims want, is another Christian state over there.

And yes Trump's statement was to get the local moslem nations off their butts and get involved in dealing with Gaza. E.g. They should take some of the Gazans and take care of their moslem brothers. Which as we know there is a history there that is not always positive.

I can almost be sure in saying that no US troops will be on the ground. That we know of. There are still US citizens in Hamas, etc. bloody hands. The US does not want to be involved in Gaza. The US has given too much $ already over the years. And I'm sure much of it went to weapons, etc.

The IDF will still have to cleanse Hamas. This war is not over. And it won't be unless the Gazans can be "de-Nazified" so to speak. But like with all the ISIS prisoners in camps in Syria and Iraq. I highly doubt it … Most will never be able to go back to be being peaceful farmers, herders, businessmen, etc.

IMO the options are limited …

As a sidebar all the Hamas criminals that Israel has to trade for their own people. And those numbers of Hamas are very large. The only good thing is that now those released members of Hamas are legitimate targets on the battlefield. I'm sure as the war continues after the temporary truce is over. Many of them will end up dead by IDF hands … My take – Good !

Just a guess, but I somehow doubt the Egyptian security services are going to wait long to make sure Hamas isn't a problem- and I doubt they will show them a tenth of the consideration the Israelis would have done.

It's interesting how quiet the West Bank has been throughout this. I assume that Fatah isn't particularly sorry to see Hamas destroyed, since it's almost as much of a threat to them as it is to the Israelis.

Again seeming an interview of Bibi by FOX's Mark Levin. Bibi made it clear. No US troops will be needed. The IDF will take care of Hamas, etc. The Israelis will not stop until Hamas, etc. are no longer a threat.

The plan of the US occupying and rebuilding Gaza was another Trump tactic of taking or asking for more than is really wanted or needed. The other Arab nations will have to jump in to rebuild Gaza which will not only take billions of dollars but many, many years. There is really nowhere for the Gazans to go if they stay in the moonscape that is Gaza. An outcome Hamas with Iran's support brought upon themselves.

Bibi also said, if need be, the US will assist the IDF AF along with US air assets. That will make Iran no longer a threat to Israel, KSA, etc. or even the USA. The bottom-line is Iran cannot get Nukes … period.

Subject: Evil: Hamas Says Bodies Of Bibas Family to Be Returned Thursday – The Judean


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Subject: Anti-Israel protest in NYC devolves into violence and mayhem


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Yes, it seems with the invasion of our institutions of learning at all levels. By among other things massive the anti-Jewish dogma is widespread and here to stay at least for some time in the future.

Legion I think we both know why that is so.

It's easy to be sloppy and conflate the two, but being anti-Jewish and anti-Israel are not the same thing.
That holds true for those protesting/hating, and those commenting on or criticizing the protestors.

Would it be fair to say (and I expect a very loud "NO", lol):
Anti-Semitic views, more prevalent on the right.
Ant-Israeli views, more prevalent on the left.

"The plan of the US occupying and rebuilding Gaza was another Trump tactic…"

Maybe it's a tactic, but I don't think so. It's just him saying stuff on a whim – and usually doubling down later to save face. Not the wisest thing in a politician.

"Would it be fair to say (and I expect a very loud "NO", lol):
Anti-Semitic views, more prevalent on the right.
Ant-Israeli views, more prevalent on the left."

No, they are both on the left right now. Some of the worst anti semitism has been prevalent on the Ivy league campuses of the East. I do have the links still. But it will take you a lot of reading and weeding through the links dealing with the war in Gaza if you want to read them.🙂

The short reason is the Israeli hence the Jews, are seen as white colonialist oppressors and subjugators of the poor suffering, oppressed dark man (Palestinians). Ridiculous, yes, but that is what is taught.

We have also allowed a large influx of Muslims into the US, most of which have an abiding hatred of Jews/Israel and in a many cases, anyone who is not Muslim.

The old days of the anti semitic KKK type fanatic are becoming less and less. Are they there, sure. But far, far less. They have been readily replaced by those above.

Subject: Hamas hostages: coffins containing four bodies released – YouTube


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Sil, I even went to the web and grabbed two quick ones.

Subject: Antisemitism on College Campuses: Incident Tracking – Hillel International


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Even though this study tries to absolve the left and make excuses, it realizes it really can't. Finally had to admit it, it is predominantly the left.

Subject: The Crisis of Antisemitism on College Campuses | Features | Summer 2024 | Brandeis Magazine | Brandeis University


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I would agree with 35th, both are on the left. I have heard no one on the right attack Jews. Can't say the same about the left. Anti-Israel views started with the Obama administration, and they have flowed together the far-left dislike for Jews. Antisemitism is a left problem.

Grattan I agree. I see it as I said as an offshoot or the whole "white man responsible for all the ills of the world" teaching.

As I have said on numerous occasions. All races are both good and evil and no one is clean.

Interesting and I heard this today. The 2 young children and mother who were returned dead today (by masked men afraid to show their faces and with cheering by Palestinians), were kidnapped by "normal Palestinians", not Hamas. Probably killed by them too.

Also mentioned, unlike some Germans who tried to help Jews, there is no evidence any Palestinian tried to help captive Jews escape. This was on a broadcast by an Israeli group today.

Lastly, the old man returned today was a peace activist who had on many occasions, tried to help Palestinians obtain medical care and other things, and wanted peace between the two nations

Yes the murder of the mother and her two small children is heinous. Anyone blaming Israel for all of this should have their heads examined. You are right 35th, it is the whole whites are the oppressors and all others, except for Asians for some reason, are the oppressed. Thus, the oppressed can do no wrong. Just a foolish and limited view of the world.

If that rebuilding starts on a foundation of Trinity beads, it will be no more than the Gazans have earned. I continue to be amazed at the restraint of the Israelis.