"Hamas vs Israel... again" Topic

<a>SB. I just have the feeling that there is a plot on both sides to keep the border mess going.

No, there's a Uniparty Establishment plot to import millions of people for political power and cheap labor, and those who oppose it and want border security and stability. This tension creates the "border mess."

Maybe but there is also a political party who want to use the chaos to push an agenda which they promise in order to grab vote, but they never quite deliver, because they don't want it to go away. As always, they will be telling you more next week.

Or we could be wrong. Just sayin'

Maybe but there is also a political party who want to use the chaos to push an agenda which they promise in order to grab vote, but they never quite deliver,

Yep, that's the Establishment GOP which is part of the Uniparty.

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WCK was cooperating with IDF so it was accused of of being Israel puppets.

3 guys were veterans of US Army, providing protection and communication with IDF. WCK people were screened, checked and aproved by IDF before. Dead WCK guys were working before in Ukraine, Maroko, and Latin America.

While driving in Deir al-Balah, a convoy of three WCK cars was fired on multiple times over 2 kilometres (1.2 mi) by an Israeli drone. Survivors of the first strike alerted the IDF, moving to the next car, which was then hit by a second missile. The wounded were then carried to a third vehicle, which was in turn struck by a further missile.(…)
Since the wreckages of the cars were around 2.5 km (1.6 mi) apart, The Washington Post reported that this indicated that some of the cars were able to continue driving after the attack began, and Financial Times concluded that the cars were "hit separately".(..)

WCK said the strike occurred in spite of vehicle logos and "coordinating movements" with Israeli forces in the "deconflicted zone".
Haaretz described that after a drone missile hit one World Central Kitchen car, some of this car's passengers boarded another World Central Kitchen car, which "continued to drive and even notified the people responsible that they were attacked, but, seconds later", this car was also hit by a drone missile; finally the third car picked up some of the wounded from the second car, then a third drone missile struck the third car.

Those 3 US veterans evacuated wounded and informed IDF that they are attacked. It didnto helped at all, they were struck again and finally again.

Haaretz quoted one Israeli defense source as saying that "the units in the field decide to launch attacks without any preparation, in cases that have nothing to do with protecting our forces." Further citing Israeli defense sources, Haaretz reported that the destroyed cars "were clearly marked on the roof and sides" as belonging to the World Central Kitchen, and had "travelled along a route preapproved and coordinated with the IDF", but "the war room of the unit responsible for security of the route ordered the drone operators to attack", due to "suspicion that a terrorist was travelling with the convoy"; the supposed terrorist was "an armed man" in the aid truck being escorted by the cars to a food warehouse in Deir al-Balah; the cars had left the aid truck behind at the warehouse, and the "armed man did not leave the warehouse", but Israeli strikes from an Elbit Hermes 450 drone were still ordered on the cars.

So (false) "suspicion that a unknown terrorist was travelling with the convoy" was enough to order 3 consecutive attacks with perfect knowledge it will cause sure death of several innocent (not Hamas, accepted by IDF) people. So to have a small chance to kill one maybe-terrorist (or maybe just not-Hamas guy protecting food warehouse) IDF approved death of 7 innocent civilians. Thats crazy.

Guys, it was a 100% warcrime. You cannot imagine what this warcrime and moreover Israel offcial reaction is doing to Israel reputation around the world.

Yes, Israel has right to defend itself and eliminate whole barbarian Hamas.
No, Israel does not have the right to commit warcrimes.

The Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols form the core of international humanitarian law, which regulates the conduct of armed conflict and seeks to limit its effects. These conventions protect people not taking part in hostilities and those who are no longer participating in the hostilities, such as wounded, sick, and shipwrecked soldiers, as well as prisoners of war.

Regarding the IDF attack on the World Central Kitchen (WCK) convoy in Gaza, the situation appears to be a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions. The attack involved multiple strikes and targeted three WCK vehicles, all of which were carrying civilians, marked as WCK vehicles, and in full compliance with Israeli authorities regarding their itinerary and humanitarian mission. An independent investigation is being demanded by WCK to determine the truth and assess whether the attack intentionally violated international law.

The Geneva Conventions unequivocally prohibit attacks on civilians and emphasize humane treatment of detainees. In this context, the IDF's actions are subject to scrutiny, and the principles of international humanitarian law must be upheld.

Yes, Israel has right to defend itself and eliminate whole Bleeped text barbarian Hamas.

Yes the IDF plans to wipe out Hamas. There are only about 4 Bns of them still fighting.

No, Israel does not have the right to commit warcrimes.

Yes the IDF does not, but as we know, in a battle things get confused, etc. I don't know why the IDF would have done something like this on purpose ? But again, bad things happen in a war as we know. It is just too bad this happened. And may happen again, sadly … However, it does look like the IDF did this and it was not an accident.

However, it does look like the IDF did this and it was not an accident.

It was not an accident, since "the war room of the unit responsible for security of the route ordered the drone operators to attack"

I don't know why the IDF would have done something like this on purpose ?

To succesfully deter the WCK, the last mass provider of food to Gaza (own port, links to Biden himself)?

Seem to remember after Islamic Terrorists killed 13 of our soldiers in Kabul, during the botched withdrawal, a drone strike that we made. It happens. You want to stay safe, stay out of war zones.

"WASHINGTON — Newly declassified surveillance footage provides additional insights about the final minutes and aftermath of a botched U.S. drone strike last year in Kabul, Afghanistan, showing how the military made a life-or-death decision based on imagery that was fuzzy, hard to interpret in real time and prone to confirmation bias.

The strike on Aug. 29 killed 10 innocent people — including seven children — in a tragic blunder that punctuated the end of the 20-year war in Afghanistan."

I remember the government and the MSM telling us we killed the terrorists who killed our troops.

35thOVI, You are recalling completely different type of situation. We both know islamists are recruiting children and using them as scouts, couriers, soldiers and suicide bombers. They may be justified targets. Killing them may be consitute warcrime or may not, depending on circumstances.

However, I cannot recall situation when USA deliberately (in 3 consecutive steps) killed several surely innocent civilians (calling to USA and saying: "we are here, do not shoot us") from humanitarian organization just to have a chance to kill one unknown unspecified men with gun (who may or may not be terrorist), when whole territory is full of such men.

35th, I don't think these two compare. The IDF was in communication with the victims, everybody had prior knowledge of their presence and purpose. As errors go, if it was one, this is hard to understand.

Legion, what do you mean about own port and links to Biden? Don't quite get it…

WCK got own port in Gaza to operate as a part of agreement with USA.

There were information that founder of WCK has a personal connections to Biden administration as a longtime "an outspoken critic of Trump".

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Legion, what do you mean about own port and links to Biden? Don't quite get it…

I did not say that. Umpapa posted that …

To succesfully deter the WCK, the last mass provider of food to Gaza (own port, links to Biden himself)?

Yikes,very sorry Legion! My bad, not only did I not get the meaning, I got the wrong poster!

Andres has helped feed countless Americans, especially in southern states, where hurricanes and tornadoes have spread destruction. He originally was moved to do so by the Katrina disaster. His operation became worldwide. His dispute with Trump was about the anti-Mexican rhetoric and he pulled out of a restaurant deal because of it. He feeds people.

The IDF drone strike was extrapolated on by two US GENs. Ret. on both FOX & CCN. Plus, I saw the footage of the BDA of the strike on both of those networks.

My take is based on those reports and my experience as among other things of my time as a Bn S-3 Air in the 101. Albeit a long time ago. '81-'83

Let there be no doubt these aid worker deaths are in Hamas and Iran's bloody hands.

1) The first report is generally always wrong.

2) If the reports are correct this strike occurred at night.

3) The markings on the vehicles were really too small to be seen from the air. Those symbols should be huge. Regardless can those symbols be seen at both day and night ? I saw the photo of the roof of one of the vehicles where the ordinance penetrated thru the top. The symbol was very small. To be seen at day of night. From the air.

4) Deconfliction – If there was commo between the aid vehicles and the IDF. And it appears there was. But was the commo clear, not broken etc. Even with this if the convoy was supposed to be at a certain place at a certain time. Did that happen ?

5) This an insurgency environment, with much of it being in urban terrain. The insurgent will use any form of deception. Unless there were prearranged codes to clearly ID who is on the other end of the transmissions. The insurgent could somehow get on the net and send false information.

Especially in an insurgency with no one is wearing uniforms. Could the aid workers chain of command have been infiltrated? So, it could be able to get the Freqs, etc. for the operation.

Hamas wants these types of deaths, i.e. aid workers to occur to feed their agenda …

This even happened before with the UN having aid workers on the ground who participated in the 07 Oct. atrocity.

In these types of ops when dealing with insurgents the "fog of war" could only become even worse.

We know[or should] Mao – to paraphrase, "The insurgent must blend in with the fishes." …Yes blend in, look just like the non-combatants, etc. E.g. the VC or the insurgencies in Iraq and A'stan.

Sun Tzu – to paraphrase, "Warfare is all a matter of deception."

Both of these concepts are especially important to the insurgent/guerilla/partisan, etc. Or even the counter-insurgency forces tasked with ending the insurgent ops.

Historically, the insurgent does not generally follow the GCs, etc. Making the counter-insurgent ops even more difficult to be effective. E.g. the 07 Oct atrocity – Hamas, etc., followed NO CGs, etc. Maybe their only guidelines were to slaughter the infidel without mercy. It appears so to me and many others to be so.

All that being said the Drone pilots are being investigated as is this entire incident. It will take time to be detailed etc. We will have to wait for the "rest of the story". Or like many already are just pointing figures at the IDF.

That being said, again it is not always easy to ID ground targets. In some cases, even today …

Legion +1. The Israelis have apologized, also:

"JERUSALEM (AP) — The Israeli military said Friday that it dismissed two officers and reprimanded three others for their roles in drone strikes in Gaza that killed seven aid workers on a food-delivery mission, saying they had mishandled critical information and violated the army's rules of engagement."

So how many apologies so far from Hamas/Palestinians for the October massacre? How many Hamas members have been dismissed and reprimanded. Any apology from Iran for civilian deaths, rapes, live burnings, executions, torture?

This war is being fought in urban areas. The Terrorists look like everyone else in Gaza. They blend in purposely. They hide and fight out of homes, schools, churches and just about anywhere that makes them feel more secure. "Humanitarians" should keep out of Gaza, there is no way to be safe. You cannot hamstring an army fighting an enemy who blends in and hides among civilians. What is Hamas, except mostly "Palestinians"?

I cannot imagine fighting WW2 by today's rules of engagement. We would be speaking German and Japanese.

Subject: 'Serious failure': IDF fires 2 top officers over deadly drone strike on Gaza aid convoy | The Times of Israel


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+1 Legion…and the longer the war, the more chances for this stuff to happen. We do not know what really happened as usual, but it is in the nature of this fighting to incur a lot of CD.

Yes, I saw two IDF officers were fired[relieved] for the drone strikes that occurred. That may or may not have been the correct action ? But like many modern wars, they are fought in the media as well as on the battlefield. And in this case, Hamas is doing everything they can do to make the Israelis war criminals, etc. … again. This may have just been a luck and an accident but it plays into the Hamas agenda, etc.

As I have said in this environment, an insurgency being fought mostly in MOUT … CD will be inevitable.

I said this early on. The pro-Hamas/Palestinian "protesters" in the US and probably elsewhere, are generations of the indoctrinated. Taught to view every conflict, well actually everything, as a war between the white colonialists oppressors, versus the non-white oppressed. Everything is white vs black/brown/red/yellow. The actions of one, are magnified and judgements based on false premises. The actions of the other, even when extremely evil, are ignored and excused.

Subject: Harvard Hires 24/7 Security To Protect Anti-Israel ‘Apartheid Wall' Featuring Quote From Famous Terrorist


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As long as the Palestinians/Hamas get support of any kind this plays into their plans. They believe they have support from many in the US population as well as in Europe also.

"Iran said it asked the US to "step aside" as the country prepares a response to a suspected Israeli attack on its consulate in Syria while Hezbollah, its main proxy in the Middle East, warned the Jewish state it is prepared for war."

""In response, the US asked Iran not to hit American targets," Jamshidi said."

"CNN reported that the US is on high alert and is preparing for a "significant" response from Iran against Israeli or American targets in the region. The network cited an unnamed US official.

NBC, citing two unnamed United States officials, said US President Joe Biden's administration is concerned any attack could be inside Israel, specifically against "military or intelligence targets, rather than civilians"."

IMO, Israel would love the excuse to hit Iran's nuclear facilities.

Subject: Iran tells US to ‘step aside' as it readies response to Israel over Syria strike | South China Morning Post


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With Iran's threats to both Israel and the USA. It has to be taken seriously. I do think Iran knows that if it comes down to it, the Israeli AF could do a lot of damage to them. They are not risk adverse and fears escalation.

With the right leadership the US, UK, etc. could strike much of Iran's military assets. Making radars, missile sites/locations, and C3. But this won't happen … And we are left with another situation where because of the US leaders who don't have the right stuff. Iran, and our other enemies are taking advantage of it.

Errata : … "Making radars," should read "Taking out radars," …

The curse of auto-correct….

Yeah … I'll go with that !

From Military.com

Some interesting figures/numbers/body count in the war in Gaza.

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So the IDF has basically pulled out of Gaza according to ISW? Left behinds elements of one brigade and supporting arms. Bit early I'd suggest, Hamas will regroup and replace losses. And around the wheel we turn…..

Yes they pulled back. As soon as they did, Hamas lobbed more missiles at Israeli civilian targets. No condemnation from the UN, The World or the student protestors.

Did they pull back because of the current administrations change of stance? I hope not, that would be sad and wrong. Israel did not tell us to stand down in Iraq or Afghanistan.

I hope they are regrouping for the final push to destroy Hamas. According to sources, that is only half done.

FYI … any hostages released?

The strike on the Workd Kitchen team may or may not have been a "mistake," but Chef Andres is clearly a politically motivated leftist and apologist for Hamas who has chosen sides.

Chef Andres is good friend of Biden administration – that why he got job of feeding Gazans.

Attacking WCK enraged Biden administration.

It was perceived all over the world (maybe erroneously) that Netanyahu has shown direspect to Biden (killing workers of his friend, possibly on purpose) and interfered in US elections (helping Trump).

It is popular opinion in EU that Biden had to force Netanyahu to withdraw (to lower the anger of Biden leftist voters and to punish Netanyahu for interference) using threats of Iran as an official cover up.

That's not all, several countries and ICC started their own criminal investigations. Israel hadnt ratified ICC, but neither Serbia and Milosevic still was imprisoned.

Probably Israel will have to give up few officers as sacrifial lambs to ICC for breaking chain of command and allowing for killing spree. Personally I believe that whole attack was not on purpose, it was just killing reflex of younger officers and allowing for loose ROE: "see guy with gun kill all around them and their dog, ignoring calls". Still warcrime.

I did not know anything about the politics of Andres other than his pulling away from Trump. I have not heard him support Hamas. But he does feed people.

I have not heard him support Hamas. But he does feed people.

He called for a ceasefire within a week of the Oct 7 attack, before Israel even knew the full picture of how many men, women, children and infants had been murdered and kidnapped. Well before Israel went into Gaza. He has also refused to condemn Hamas. He's an advisor to Biden, and Obama gave him a Humanities Medal, and he grandstanded during the 2016 election cycle to attack Trump when Trumpp criticized illegal immigration. His World Kitchen, when you look at the funding comes from Globalists like Bezos and other Davos-connected wealthy.

There's a food crisis as bad or worse in Yemen. Where's Chef Andres? There's a food crisis in Sudan. Where's Chef Andres? There's a food crisis in Somalia. Where's Chef Andres?

No photo opps or political points to score in those places, I guess.

Left behinds elements of one brigade and supporting arms. Bit early I'd suggest, Hamas will regroup and replace losses. And around the wheel we turn…..

I thought that was a bad idea too. Some GENs Ret. in the media said that as well. It does not make military sense.

However, the US leadership is asking the IDF to be careful and limit civilian losses. Interestingly a Ret. US Army Officer an expert on MOUT, in an interview in the media. He was with the IDF as a reporter/observer, in Gaza. Said that he was seeing the IDF already doing this. And yes, in MOUT non-combatants could become losses. The IDF was doing a pretty good job limiting civilian deaths. As they don't want to get anymore bad press, and don't operate like that, like Hamas, etc.

But it is an election year … and some need all the votes they can't get from the moslem minority in the USA.

And …I have not heard Andres support Hamas. So what if he associates with moderates and liberals?

And …I have not heard Andres support Hamas. So what if he associates with moderates and liberals?

He refuses to condemn their actions, and carefully avoids criticizing them. By his silence he has chosen sides.

Subject: Israel, U.S. to coordinate on possible attack by Iran


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That would be an interesting turn of events. However, I still think the US leadership does not have the right stuff … To commit to such a coordinated effort …

It's 1965 All Over Again

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Armand

More like Orwell's "1984" …

Is this on a collage campus in the US, or the streets in Gaza? Answer: Columbia University yesterday, last night and into early this morning.

Subject: Pro-palestine Protesters Light FLARES outside Columbia University Occupation – YouTube


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These politicians cannot even condemn people yelling "Death to America".

Subject: Jesse Watters on X: "Democrats REFUSE to condemn protesters burning The American Flag! t.co/2n4SY43mvJ / X


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Saw that on FOX … only 5 were arrested, and probably back on the streets within hours. The woke progressives, intellectual, academic, etc., have let this mentality infiltrate the USA. Anyone in that mob who is not a "legal" American should be arrested by ICE, etc. and be deported. If they chant "Death to America", they could be/are a threat … But if they are moslems, Asians, etc. and the gov't can't deport them as if would be called racists, -phobic this or that, etc., …

But none of that will happen as we know …

What those protesters are doing is first they are not peacefully protesters they are rioters …

Genocide?

Subject: Gazans flock to beach after IDF withdrawal | JNS.org


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Subject: Citizen Free Press on X: "MASSIVE Israeli airstrike in Rafah, earlier today. t.co/GUYvJCvpGQ / X


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The spoiled children of the American rich, and the wealthy foreigners whose parents are paying full tuition, to keep Columbia afloat.

Never been so glad in my life that I turned down a school that accepted me.

Nine, yes truly sad and actually revolting, with chants of: "I am Hamas! We are all Hamas!"

Subject: Columbia University protester yells 'We're all Hamas': video


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I remember how it looked when the cultural tide turned in the 1980s, and all the Boomers suddenly found that the poses they'd been encouraged to take for twenty years weren't quite as fashionable as they had been. I heard a couple of my friends' parents making excuses for the draft deferments they had worked hard to get.

I suspect the denouement for this kind of stuff is going to be a bit tougher when the worm turns this time around. Most of the country is in no mood to hear this nonsense, our resident TMP Jan 6 obsessives aside.

Subject: Kassy Akiva on X: "The videos posted last night on Columbia University's Chabad are shocking. This isn't anti-Zionism. It's blatant antisemitism. t.co/7Ggk9dndGv / X


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I do think the role that foreigners are playing in this is significant and serious, and needs to be dealt with.

Perhaps all this video will provide an incoming administration with the evidence it needs to deport the foreigners who are doing this, and ban them from ever entering the country again.

Another infuriating thought, the taxpayers, by way of the POTUS student loan forgiveness policies, are paying for these "students" to protest, burn the flag, yell "Death to America" and support the Terrorists group that killed and captured other US citizens.

9pr +1

35th +1

Seems new leadership will have to have ICE, FBI, etc. hunt down not only illegal aliens but also "foreigners" who make it clear they are not here to be Americans … As well as Americans that support islamic terrorism.

Looks like the "5th Column" is already here …

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Unbelievable. What's it going to take to get the government to take this seriously?

By any reasonable standard, the guy who did this would be in jail, awaiting prosecution.