"Hamas vs Israel... again" Topic

Yes demo the tunnels, that's what I meant by collapsing them. This sounds like an old school operation, door to door. There are not going to be negotiations and this may not end well.

CIA and Mossad have surely been there all along. Hamas must have used a lot of written communication, couriers, etc. to get so far off the grid. Obviously they pulled it off, I am just surprised their security seems to have been this good.

The Gerald Ford battlegroup should be almost there. It packs major firepower. The cruiser Normandy is there along with four Arleigh Burke DDs. And Ford's air groups are supplemented by more air groups, all types, arriving at area bases.

The ships will seal off the seaward approach to Gaza to prevent resupply to Hamas. And guard against Hezbollah.

The IDF will have to occupy Gaza again. Once they clear Israel of the terrorists. They kill off as many of Hamas as possible. Then continue to hunt them down like vermin. Non-combatants will be killed. Hamas will hide behind civilians.

No. No reoccupying Gaza. The experiment of Land for Peace is a total failure. The Israelis gave the Palestinians the core of a nation state and left behind infrastructure, and provided training and $$ to the Palestinians. The Palestinians in turn used that to create a totalitarian terror state dedicated to war and death, not building a nation for their own people. Now entire generations of kids have essentially been raised by the Nazis.

No more Gaza. Israel should start bulldozing large free fire zones and keep bulldozing their way in, while building fortified siege lines into Gaza. But the goal is not to occupy a population but keep pushing them back until you can securely triple wall the whole place off, cut off all services permanently (Israel was supplying electricity and water and natural gas to Gaza), block all incoming trade and aid, only outgoing traffic. Then offer either Israeli citizenship after a full background check or a $10,000 USD/per family resettlement payment to leave Gaza. Whoever accepts the payment gets free passage to their choice of Quatar or Iran. Eventually if you have to keep bulldozing and blasting all the way to the sea you can use the rubble to expand the coastline -- say it's for sea level rise mitigation. Lots of reclaimed farmland and natural wilderness.

An understandable idea. Israel does not want to have to hold Gaza, but what choice do they really have for now?

" How did everybody miss the intel on such a big operation? "

Maybe it was there, and it just wasn't passed along? Though it could be incompetence, there could also be politics involved (I've heard such conjectures on several radio shows.) 50th anniversary of the 1973 war, and there was no stepped up alert level? Something stinks about alarms not being sounded. Either way, there will be a housecleaning in the intel agencies…

Fence it in and let it rot -- let people leave, but not inbound. If you feel merciful – then you can let supplies into Gaza (not people) through a naval blockade after boarding and inspecting all incoming ships. If a ship or boat tries to run the blockade it gets sunk. or boarded and seized. No people in, only out. The hardcore Hamas will stay, and you can blast them to bits with air, arty and drones, swarms of drones to reduce Israeli casualties.

When is Israel going to bite the bullet and say, flat out, that they're at war with Gaza. This is like Britain, in 1939, declaring war on NSDAP.

The people in Gaza have no interest in living in Gaza. They're staying there for the convenience of attacking Israel so they can return to homes none of them have seen in 4 generations.

"let people leave, but not inbound"

They will return after the fighting has stopped.

The trouble with wiping out Gaza is that a lot of people there are not terrorists. They just get used for cover. A lot of people may die who have nothing to do with this.

But that's on Hamas as well. There is nothing more odious than terrorist culture, taking hostages, suicide attacks against civilians. The price of peace this time will be very high for everyone.

Zephyr, does the US radio world really think Israeli intelligence ignored their own info for political gain? Or the US could commit such a terrible act? Why would any western nation, especially the US, enable a 9/11 style attack on Israel? Especially as the carefully crafted reapproachment with the Saudis was underway. Who would houseclean? The House of Representatives?

What the motive? Who gains what? And what about UK intel? Or Europe?

Constraining Hamas has ever been like trying to staple Jello to a tree. EVERYTHING entering Gaza is supposed to be screened thru Israel and Egypt, yet Hamas never seems to have difficulty deploying literally thousands of rockets of steadily increasing sophistication.

If they can move things around with no one the wiser, moving info on the quiet certainly seems plausible.

Subject: Emily Schrader – אמילי שריידר امیلی شریدر on X: "If you really want to know what happened in Israel, watch this: the most painful video I've seen yet. Terrified Israeli family being held hostage by Hamas terrorists after they killed one of the sisters of the little girl. 💔 t.co/oHRxZddq9N / X


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Confirmed 9 US citizens killed. Others missing. Obviously citizens of other countries killed and missing, like the young woman dead in the back of the terrorists jeep I posted earlier.

Deep sickness in American education and left-society:

Thirty-one Harvard organizations blame Israel for Hamas attack

More than 30 student organizations at Harvard University are holding Israel "entirely responsible" for Hamas' attack on the Jewish nation over the weekend.

In a letter entitled "Joint Statement by Harvard Palestine Solidarity Groups on the Situation in Palestine," 31 student organizations — including the Ivy League's affiliate of Amnesty International — condemned Israel, even as its residents are kidnapped and more than 700 have been killed by the terrorist organization.

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Coming soon, to a Congressional staff near you….

@SB saw this last night too. Truly Sad. Along with the pro Terrorist supporters, protesting in NY and elsewhere in the world. It does make one be concerned as to what wolves we have allowed into the flock of sheep. With between 7 to 8 million in the last 3 years, there are bound to be wolves. 🐺

One bit of good news, although not much in the greater scheme of things.

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Tough video, 35th and the scene is being repeated over and over. Who kills a little girl face to face? What kind of movement supports such an action? They gotta go…

The Ford is the largest warship on earth. The group has plenty of missiles. I would love to see them turn Iran into a parking lot right now, but that is not how things work. But we are there and it makes a statement, provides serious cover. And maybe opportunities.

There is more help on the way for Israel, air groups, air defense etc. We have no Congress right now. But we have shown up anyway and its time to end the terror. Hezbollah, Iran – no more. We need a total clampdown on these thugs, then get them off the board. They are the ones who chose this road.

What happens when Iranian regime change becomes a moral imperative?

Israel has been very busy fighting itself lately with its protests and internal struggles. Jewish solidarity seemed to be a thing of the past. I wonder how much this has played into the timing of Hamas. And maybe it serves as a warning about internal divisions…

Tort I believe there are many more scenes to play out in the next weeks. We are just in the opening acts.

Again, there is no excuse for this horror … Hamas along with 3 other terrorist groups that made this terrorist attack must know this will not change anything in the Palestinian's favor. It will only cause more death and destruction.

They even attacked in the North last night as well. Hezbollah may end up joining this war. So far they only have fired rockets. And the IDF retaliated …

Now with the IDF enraged with this murderous barbaric attack on its people … and justifiably so … This will change many things there.

Iran supporting these terrorist attacks and have been for decades must be punished. The US leaders can't support them in any way. Increase sanctions, freezing the $6 USD billion dollars that was foolishly just given to them, etc.

The Iranian making nukes has to be seen now a real threat to everyone. No nuke deal with Iran, which i will ignore if it slows their quest for this WMD.

The open border only makes it easier for our enemies to send agents, terrorists, etc. into the US to do damage. This has to stop …

Again, weak, unrealistic, progressive driven US leadership influenced this horror, IMO. The A'stan debacle and the invasion of Ukraine was a factor as well. Because our weak, poor leadership whose priorities were not where they should have been. As I have said before.

This will be a long dirty slog invading/liberating Gaza. The IDF has already shut off water & power. They will try to save the hostages, kill off Hamas and the other terrorists there. And Gaza will be liberated and occupied by the IDF. They have no choice.

The World has changed in the past 3 years … you can take that as you wish …

The population of Gaza is 2 million and Israel, justifiably mad as they are, will behave as a rational Western power and take casualties they don't have to in order to minimize civilian casualties as well as try and free the hostages. There will be very large collateral damage as Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth and Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran will attempt to generate sympathy. The brutality of Hamas and Israeli sophistication will likely malt that attempted spin fail except among those who already so deep down the anti -Semitic, anti-Israel rabbit hole that no fact interferes with preconceived emotions.

In a free country I expect out of 330 million, more than a few idiots. The pro-Hamas folks serve a valuable purpose by self-identifying. Going forward those who wish to blame the victim should never escape the consequences of such idiocy. Their speech is protected from the government but employers, voters and neighbors are free to treat idiocy as an unemployable, unsupportable personal failing and treat a mental leper as such.

"In a free country I expect out of 330 million, more than a few idiots. The pro-Hamas folks serve a valuable purpose by self-identifying. Going forward those who wish to blame the victim should never escape the consequences of such idiocy. Their speech is protected from the government but employers, voters and neighbors are free to treat idiocy as an unemployable, unsupportable personal failing and treat a mental leper as such."

Ok, so a question: 🤔

Should those protesting in sympathy for Hamas and the other terrorist groups currently in the United States, be tracked and investigated by the FBI and other Federal agencies? Similar to what they have done to January 6th individuals and Parents who protested school policies. When one looks back into the past, we let in, trained and educated many, such as those who perpetuated 9/11, the original Twin Towers attack and other terrorist acts on US soil.

Interested in views. If no, why not? If yes, justified?

Thanks

Exactly as I said before. We guarantee freedom of speech. But we don't have to listen. Some media will focus on these people for political gain as usual.

I am hoping Hezbollah will hold off on a major action with the USN there in force. Our Middle East commander is still awaiting his promotion to the post….

I respectfully disagree that the US political leadership had much to do with this. If it did, the chaotic command turmoil of the previous years, knowledge of history, geography, the value of briefings, would also be a factor. Ask Kelly, MacMaster, Mattis, McRaven, etc.

Much as we might be tempted, 35th, I would have to say no. The Constitution guarantees them the right to freedom of speech.

If they break the law, that's another matter. This includes inciting a mob to fight, attack property, etc. I do not see them as a major issue right now. But we can express our opinions about them freely. The US has a long history of strong bipartisan support for Israel. But we are more diverse than ever and will apparently hear some opposition.

Seize the Gaza side of the border with Egypt. Enforce a total blockade. Evacuate the women and children to Iran. Swap every Palestinian in an Israeli jail for the hostages, provided they are released into Gaza. Then throw away the key.

A good point, who are the Israelis holding that could be traded?

Should those protesting in sympathy for Hamas and the other terrorist groups currently in the United States, be tracked and investigated by the FBI and other Federal agencies?

To the extent they actively advocate violence, yes. I fully expect that any individuals that day in, day out are advocating for Hamas or Hezbollah already are on a fairly in depth monitoring (as they should be). Discounting the cretins that actually entered the Capitol on January 6 flat out breaking the law, I doubt anyone not threatening violence is on any list although a significant amount of the far right is virulently anti-Semitic ("Jews will not replace us" – fairly well known quote from the Charlottesville torchlight loser parade) and absent the end times rooters, very hostile to aid to Israel.

There are 5,200 Palestinians in Israeli jails according to Al Jazeera. Trade them all.

I think trading all of them out for the hostages is fine provided they all get released in Gaza and all hostages are accounted for as Hamas is a disorganized bunch of whacks and the left hand may not know what the right hand has. Possibly track and target the released Palestinians (at least the Hamas folks) using something like RFID's in the food?

The best US answer to all of this is immediate, highly public, military aid (not sales, gifts) to Israel. The US Army secretary called for this today but until the House gets a Speaker, I do not believe that can be acted on.

Hopefully there is a trade then. And maybe some counter intel possibilities eventually.

Trade?! How about, if anything happens to the hostages, those 5,200 prisoners become suitable subjects for reprisals in kind. You negotiate with that kind of behavior, you legitimize it.

reprisals in kind.

Even if they don't admit it, most civilized nations around the globe admire Israel as the only effective democracy in the Middle East and pretty much a bastion of western cultural values. Israel is too smart to give up the moral high ground just to get even with a bunch of barbarians. They will make Hamas wish they'd never considered this action (the limited number that survive) but they won't stoop to their level.

Like Churchill did with the Germans, and we did with the Japanese, right? I wouldn't say that either American or British democracy was irreparably harmed by things like the combined bomber offensive, the firebombing of Tokyo, or the use of nuclear weapons, whatever twenty-first century academia has to say about the matter.

We didn't shame them with moral force- we recognized that they were societies that acknowledged no law but force, and could only be dealt with by corresponding methods- and that's exactly what we did. Hamas is barbaric, and there is no reason at all to accord the government or its supporters any kind of treatment to which lawful combatants who conducted themselves in accordance with the customs of war would be entitled. Unlike the hostages, the prisoners in Israeli jails aren't innocent. The Israelis ought to make it clear that killing or harming of the hostages will be met with reprisals against those prisoners.

You are probably right that this won't happen- but that kind of restraint is a big part of the reason the civilized nations of the west (and too frequently, their citizens abroad) have become the victims of every barbarian nation on the planet for the last twenty years.

I would add, to truly be the moral equivalent of Hamas, the IDF would have to be seizing innocent people out of their homes, taking them hostage, and threatening to kill them. No reasonable person thinks they are doing that. The Hamas prisoners in Israeli jails are something else entirely.

"reprisals in kind."

I doubt there will be a wholesale deliberate massacre of Palestinian civilians. If an outrageous number of them become collateral because Hamas wants to hide behind them and in their homes, nobody should shed any tears. Nothing says the civilian population deserves to have homes to come home to, food, electricity, water or damn near much of anything when this is over. Going forward they do not deserve to have jobs in Israel either. There is very little distinction in my mind between Hamas and the civilian population when I see them cheering and celebrating this atrocity.

When this is over seize a portion of Gaza, mine the hell out of it and put-up defense that will make the Korea DMZ look mild. Better yet cause a massive boat lift to Turkey by rendering Gaza uninhabitable and let the vermin live in tents.

I used to have some sympathy for the Palestinians when I study the history of the formation of Israel but that is gone. Israel deserves to have all the land and the Palestinians can rot in hell.

Hamas should be hunted by Mossad no matter what country or BLEEP hole they try to hide in until every last one of them are dead.

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Let's make it clear: the culture that spawns people who do this, and call themselves soldiers, is irredeemable. The prisoners whom the Israelis hold would be raping women and calling their families to boast about it like the ones who are still at liberty do, if they could. We're not talking about honorable combatants. They are moral garbage.

The only limit to Palestinian violence is that imposed by Palestinian capabilities.

The only long term hope for peace in the Middle East is to remind the barbarian nations that the civilized West has asymptotically greater capacity for violence- and willingness to use it without limit. Right now, they don't believe that we will. Someone has to be the example, and if one nation on the earth has done their level best to earn that particular societal Darwin Award, it's the Palestinians.

Read the Hamas charter, it explicitly states that Jews and Israel have no right to exist and they cannot ever be negotiated with. This is the party the people of Gaza voted into power. Israel should take them at their word (and they have amply demonstrated they take their rhetoric to heart) and refuse to negotiate with them when they ask for the blockade to be lifted, power to be restored, for fuel to be shipped, for food to be supplied.

Having said that, I believe the hostages should be traded immediately and the 5,200 Palestinians currently in Israeli jails should be delivered to Gaza as soon as possible, regardless of their crimes. I also advocate for evacuating every woman and child from Gaza.

Now, if anyone thinks this is simply freeing murderers, encouraging kidnapping, and is too soft, consider this: Gaza has no electricity. What does that mean? Not just that the lights are out and there is no Tik-Toc. There is no way to pump fresh water. There is no way to pump sewage. There is no way to pump gasoline or fuel oil. There is no refrigeration, which means food will spoil. Within a couple weeks there will be food shortages and the guys with the AKs will steal food from those without, and then from each other.

As fertile and abundant as America is, experts estimate 70 – 90% mortality in the event of a failure of the electrical grid lasting 12 months, and that is without pizzing the IDF off: link

The Israelis have to do nothing more now but keep the power off and the gates closed and Hamas is history.

Mazel Tov, Israel! Mazel Tov!

"Intelligence missed all this, it seems. I, for one, always thought Israel was stellar at intel."

Yes, where were Doron, Gabi, Moreno and the rest?

Seriously, it's hard to believe Israeli intelligence missed this one coming.

Lovely -- been reading different sources, and Russian drones and drone weapons have been used by Hamas. The drone operators may be Russian, but are at least trained by Russia. Russia refuses to condemn Hamas, and former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has basically chortled that the US is to blame, and the Israelis and the US pretty much get what they deserve. Nice….remember this guy, the man Obama asked on a hot mic he didn't know was active to tell ""Vlad" he needs some space, that it's his last election? Well, Medvedev relayed Obama's deal offer to Vlad, Vlad laid low to quiet things down to help Obama get re-elected and then Obama dumped a defense deal with Poland. How do you like that!

And since Medvedev is Putin's puppet, what he's saying is what Putin thinks.

Hamas also has weapons and advisors from Iran, and they have also gotten a nice bump in their weapons stockpiles from -- the Taliban! Yes, the Taliban has sent Hamas captured US weapons from Afghanistan. Guess we just need to have China join the party and we can announce the start of WW3, eh?

Guess I shouldn't be too surprised things have gone to shite since Obama and his team are the puppet masters of the Biden admin.

Nine, yes a trade. Hamas wants their people out of Israeli prisons, that's why they took the hostages. Negations have started.

Tortorella, in response to your 2:57 a.m. response:

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" For a sneak attack of the size Hamas launched against Israel to have happened (5,000 rockets, parachuters, towns infiltrated, Iranian and, possibly, Ukrainian involvement), there must have been an absolutely epic intelligence failure both in Israel and, to the extent the U.S. helps Israel with information, here in America, too. I have two ideas about how that could have happened, both of which are premised on significant problems within the two country's intelligence services (especially Israel's). I'll start with the one that bespeaks actual evil and then get to the more likely one, which reflects human nature.

Some suggest that the Mossad is no longer working with the Israeli government but is, instead, doing whatever it can to undermine it. I'm perfectly ready to believe that. If you've been following the news about the reforms Netanyahu wanted to make to an out-of-control leftist judicial system in Israel, you know that many in the military and the Mossad were against Bibi's actions. We've already seen in America that Deep State members cease to feel loyalty to their country as a whole and, instead, will use their government positions solely to advance one political party over the other.

Thus, it's possible that anti-government personnel in Israel and anti-Israel personnel in the State Department in America (the ones who maybe could have helped prevent the attack) didn't pay too much attention to chatter about a Hamas attack. They may have thought it would be like others before, with a little death here and a little death there. That would be enough to harm Netanyahu's government without seriously harming Israel. . .

. . . That's a very scary idea. But here's something that's just as disturbing: Nobody caught what was about to happen because of institutional incompetence. Whether at home or abroad, our "intelligence" types may no longer be that intelligent. . . I'd prefer to believe in entropy over evil. Both would have exposed Israel to the events that occurred, but entropy can be fixed now that fear is again resurgent. Evil is a corrosive rot that is almost impossible to root out. "
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As to reasons why, the third paragraph offers plenty of motive (and note the last two sentences of it. Some serious miscalculation, if so…)
So, others have had similar thoughts (and are a bit more articulate… ;-) Hopefully, none of it is true, but the (possible) alternative would be worse…

This country changed in the Nineties. It was generational. The sober, adult crowd that had lived through the Depression and the wars retired, and the Baby Boomers took over. Without the pressure of the Cold War to force adult thinking, government under both parties became deeply frivolous and unserious. Periodic crises have popped up, each one seemingly big enough to wake us up (9/11, financial crisis, defeat, pandemic), and each time, the people in DC relied on their ability to just spend more money to get out of it. Meanwhile, the bigger problems went unaddressed, and we got to where we are today. It should come as no shock that this got missed; the bureaucracies of most Western nations are deeply unserious places, staffed by people whose most intense experience in life was usually their education.

Pro-Palestinian protests in the US in many cities again yesterday. To be fair there were also pro-Israeli as well. But obviously due to the barbarity of the terrorist attack, I have issues with the pro-Palestinian protests. Also have issues with the pro-Palestinian ones, as I saw swastikas being displayed (who are the true Facists?).

Where are the true loyalties of these people? Here are just 2. I could have listed more.

Subject: Tlaib flies Palestinian flag at US office after Ben Gvir tries to ban them in Israel | The Times of Israel


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Subject: Massachusetts pro-Palestinian protestors desecrate US flag, call America 'Legit Gangsters' | Fox News


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Subject: Sister of Israeli TV personality killed 'execution style' while hiding from Hamas


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Subject: Entire family of five, including three little ones, slaughtered by Hamas… – Revolver News


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35th, I have to callout Fox News for not mentioning the Israel Solidarity rally on Boston Common, which was the major focus of the day. Both Senators and the Governor, along with thousands of people. It's no wonder we are at each others throats with this kind of "journalism."

Zephyr – great answer. Complacency is a likely explanation, across many agencies and countries. The Iron Dome was not even fully activated at the time of the attacks.

I take exception to the Deep State as my extensive personal experience has shown that elected and appointed officials can be ignorant, incompetent, and corrupt. Especially appointed officials. There are many patriotic and competent government employees. Some risk their lives for us. Patronage, on the other hand, often reduces performance to a snails pace.

Tort they maybe did not mention it in the article, but they did on TV and I mentioned pro-Israel rallies as well. But the point was the anti U.S. attitude of the pro-Palestinian protesters.

Subject: i24NEWS English on X: "i24NEWS Correspondent @Nicole_Zedek reports from Kibbutz Kfar Aza, a quarter-mile from the Gaza border, and recounts the atrocities that were committed in the small community which remains an active scene as soldiers clear booby traps and recover the bodies of dozens of victims t.co/J4ZfWZQYHp / X

Maybe if they had been armed. 🤔

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Subject: 12ft | Israel Loosens Strict Gun Control Laws To Arm Citizens

Well this explains why so few could defend themselves.

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