"Hamas vs Israel... again" Topic

Tort, would you say that in Iraq, if the US had wanted to, they could have obliterated towns where insurgents had taken residence? Not sent troops in. Used chemical and extreme conventional weapons and wiped out the population?

Why didn't they? Because we follow the "rules of war" as much as possible. We allowed our troops to take additional casualties, in order to save civilian lives as much as possible. Was there collateral damage? Of course. It is not possible in city fighting, when the enemy hides amongst and disguises themselves as civilians, not to have civilians die. Were there possibly some bad apples in our troops who shot civilians? Probably, but that was not the norm.

Did Hamas/Palestinians purposely target civilians, men, women and children? Did they NOT practice barbarism and photographic and broadcast it? Why? Because they don't follow any law, but Muslim law and jihad.

Now what I am specifically targeting is APDC's condemnation of the IDF for civilian deaths. Israel, like the U.S., has the capability to obliterate Gaza without loss of Israeli soldiers blood. But they have chosen to take additional casualties in order to limit civilian deaths as much as possible.

I'm not the one who said:

(This isnt the standard that was put to me. The claim was that the IDF "takes extra casualties to keep from causing civilian deaths")

But this is the answer to that. Israel could obliterate Gaza. They have not chosen to do that, so they are taking extra casualties because of that decision.

I can think of no war where civilian casualties did not take place. But Hamas waged war with that intention. Isreal did not.

I get it 35th, and I know that CD is unavoidable, even more so in this case. I keep saying – do what you have to do but get it over with. But I also can appreciate what an especially tough slog this is for the IDF and the strain on these guys clearing buildings and tunnels, taking casualties, is immense.

That said, the amount of mass destruction does not help Israel's image and that's what I am referring to. It's a bloody mess, try to get it done quickly. I am sure that's not easy. But the images and reports are piling up and it does not help Israel's cause.

I really expected more intel based fighting and not using 2000lb bombs on the safe zone. There must be a reason for this, Hamas is very tricky. But I thought Mossad and the IDF together might have located Hamas leaders and grabbed them to at least keep Hamas from killing the remaining hostages.

Why didn't they? Because we follow the "rules of war" as much as possible. We allowed our troops to take additional casualties, in order to save civilian lives as much as possible.

Youre making some sweeping statements here but following the rules of war isnt undertaking additional casualties in order to spare civilians, it's avoiding war crimes. We are a member of an international community and set of laws.

And The US military should never endorse allowing additional casualties. This is patently absurd.

Now what I am specifically targeting is APDC's condemnation of the IDF for civilian deaths.

Targeting? Wouldnt it be convenient to shut people up when you disagree with them.

Please explain why you think this is proper or why you are in a position to do this?

This shouldnt be personal. You dont think anyone who has studied military history can examine military matters for their accuracy? I am not doing anything but looking at the evidence. I am not making the IDF make any assertions about its conduct and I am certainly not responsible for the IDF's military conduct, rather the IDF is responsible for that conduct.

I'm not the one who said:

(This isnt the standard that was put to me. The claim was that the IDF "takes extra casualties to keep from causing civilian deaths")

Right. But now that you've said this:

35thOVI: Israel, like the U.S., has the capability to obliterate Gaza without loss of Israeli soldiers blood. But they have chosen to take additional casualties in order to limit civilian deaths as much as possible.

Thus, you do endorse it?

But this is the answer to that. Israel could obliterate Gaza. They have not chosen to do that, so they are taking extra casualties because of that decision.

I think Israel has obliterated Gaza. Most of the surface war isnt optimal for getting at a Hamas living in tunnels. Additionally, the USA has said that Israel is engaging in indiscriminate bombing which is a war crime.

There is no other way to debunk this absurdity that the IDF is incurring extra casualties to prevent civilian loss of life than by examining its actual conduct; much of which is masked due to the preventing of the Press from observing Gaza. The little bit that is leaking out is causing concern over what exactly is going on there. And it isnt just me, it's the entire world.

But whether the IDF is out of control or not, the IDF never said they take extra casualties. The very idea is absurd. In fact, it's not even plain vanilla absurdity, it's post modern absurdity. It is not the business of an army, especially a democratic one, to take casualties.

I can think of no war where civilian casualties did not take place. But Hamas waged war with that intention. Isreal did not.

Because Hamas has committed war crimes is no justification for the IDF to reciprocate. And we are not bound to repeat the mistakes of the past, rather we should learn from them.

The fact that both the US and Israel, both have the capability to destroy the adversary without incurring the cost of their troops lives, is the proof they ARE willing to accept the casualties as opposed to killing as many civilians as possible, (the stated goal of Islamic terrorists).

Nobody is trying silence you, that is another straw argument.

You do not support the IDF nor Israel, at least be honest about it.

Isreal needs to silence Hamas for as long as possible. Every time they back off, the Islamic terrorist come back and kill even more civilians.

"From the river to the sea!" The chant of every anti-Semite on the streets today.

"From the River to the Sea, Palestine Will Be Free" is a rallying cry for terrorist groups and their sympathizers, from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) to Hamas, which called for Israel's destruction in its original governing charter in 1988 and was responsible for the October 7, 2023 terror attack on Israeli civilians, murdering over 1,200 people in the single deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust. It is also a common call-to-arms for pro-Palestinian activists, especially student activists on college campuses. It calls for the establishment of a State of Palestine from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, erasing the State of Israel and its people. Another phrase "Globalize the Intifada," which uses the Arabic word for "uprising" or "shaking off," also calls for widespread violence against both Israelis and Jews across the globe"

——

"And it isnt just me, it's the entire world."
Wow, now you speak for the entire world. 😂🤣

I seem to remember quite a few who disagreed with you in the civil war forum about your views on Isreal and the IDF. So I guess it's NOT the entire world.

Tort & OVI +1/ea.

However, i think it is worth taking a look at whether both the member's utterance is true and to what extent the IDF avoids civilian casualties.

As I said again based on my training and experience from long ago. In an urban insurgency or any city fighting/MOUT. There will be a lot of collateral damage of … everything …

Hamas committed medieval murder of Israel civilians. They IDF has ROE. But … they want payback for the slaughter of their people. There was no excuse for what Hamas did. So, when the IDF rolled into Gaza. There would be little quarter given to Hamas and their supporters. And they are handling an insurgency in urban terrain amazingly well. The IDF losses are very low. They know what they are doing …

Now when shooting starts sometimes especially in urban terrain the wrong target gets hit.

You can say the IDF is violating their own ROE and try to limit CD. Frankly if the IDF was not trying to limit some CD. Gaza would look much worse than it is, and many more non-combatants would be dead. No bias … Just the reality of the situation.

If Hamas was really concerned about CD, they would not have butchered Israelis as they did on 07 OCT. They must have known they would "reap the whirlwind" … With more to come … What would one think since the 2 sides have hated each out for decades.

I don't care if the IDF promised rainbows & unicorns … the reality of a situation like this is in any conflict. A lot of people are going to die. Plus, the better trained, motivated, etc. soldiers are going to inflict heavy losses on the enemy.

The fact that both the US and Israel, both have the capability to destroy the adversary without incurring the cost of their troops lives, is the proof they ARE willing to accept the casualties as opposed to killing as many civilians as possible, (the stated goal of Islamic terrorists).

I dont think this means what you think it does.

Nobody is trying silence you, that is another straw argument.

You do not support the IDF nor Israel, at least be honest about it.

It's another strawman argument? What was the first one?

In any case, it's not a strawman argument at all. Every time I discuss the IDF and their actions you make statements that I am against Israel or the IDF. It's directly related.

Im neither Israeli nor Palestinian. Where do you get the idea that I have to pick a side?

And if you yourself have picked a side and you think the information I am discussing is compromising your tenets, then why dont you discuss the facts and events? Unless you think I am making these events up to make Israel look bad? Is that it?

If the IDF are doing nothing they shouldnt be, cant they survive some scrutiny? If I were looking at the stated vs actual conduct of Russian soldiers in the Ukraine would it be a sign that I hate Russians?

Wow, now you speak for the entire world.

Now this is a strawman argument. Bravo, you've finally figured it out.

I seem to remember quite a few who disagreed with you in the civil war forum about your views on Isreal and the IDF. So I guess it's NOT the entire world.

I think this is more of an admission that you need allies to debate this which is odd because most of what youre saying seems to rely on some form of intrinsic righteousness in spite of facts and events as they unfold. But for the record, I presented no views on either Israel or the IDF.

Isreal needs to silence Hamas for as long as possible. Every time they back off, the Islamic terrorist come back and kill even more civilians.

"From the river to the sea!" The chant of every anti-Semite on the streets today.

"From the River to the Sea, Palestine Will Be Free" is a rallying cry for terrorist groups and their sympathizers, from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) to Hamas, which called for Israel's destruction in its original governing charter in 1988 and was responsible for the October 7, 2023 terror attack on Israeli civilians, murdering over 1,200 people in the single deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust. It is also a common call-to-arms for pro-Palestinian activists, especially student activists on college campuses. It calls for the establishment of a State of Palestine from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, erasing the State of Israel and its people. Another phrase "Globalize the Intifada," which uses the Arabic word for "uprising" or "shaking off," also calls for widespread violence against both Israelis and Jews across the globe"

These are all your personal tenets which have nothing to do with my interest in examining mostly military matters except to the extent that you cannot separate the two concepts and apparently believe no one else can either.

Incidentally, killing people for what they might or might not do in the future is considered murder.

Maybe I feel that way because you have only found fault with the IDF and Israel. I've seen no criticism or outrage of Hamas. No criticism of the Palestinians who support and have sheltered Hamas and elected them into power.

If I only criticized the Ukrainians, one might conclude I support the Russians.

Legion, I bow to your military experience.

Hamas committed medieval murder of Israel civilians.

Is medieval murder worse than cutting edge murder?

They IDF has ROE. But … they want payback for the slaughter of their people.

You're not an official IDF spokesman but the concept of payback is currently running them into trouble because the International community believes this to be the case and roundly disapproves.

There was no excuse for what Hamas did. So, when the IDF rolled into Gaza. There would be little quarter given to Hamas and their supporters.

Would you please show me where it is permitted that a nation gets to do whatever it wants because they suffered an inexcusable attack?

What if the attack was excusable?

The problem with identifying who is and who isnt a supporter of Hamas is that it seems to be open to egregious error if not abuse.

Take the Al Shifa Hospital. The IDF assured us it was a Hamas HQ. Remember this map of interconnecting tunnels and buildings which was the seat of the Hamas mastermind operation?

link

The IDF bombed that hospital incessantly, killing untold thousands. And when they took it over, they invited the Press to come see the proof that it was a Hamas command and control center…only it was some tables with a handful of small arms and grenades piled on them.

Also a small tunnel that the IDF assured us was a whopping 55 yards long. There was no evidence that the tunnels had been recently used by Hamas, no evidence that the tunnel connected to other buildings. However, no one could go into the tunnel to see all the Hamas HQ apparatus because it was booby trapped. But the press was assured it was all there.

link

And they are handling an insurgency in urban terrain amazingly well. The IDF losses are very low. They know what they are doing …

The IDF are suffering a lot of wounded…seriously wounded.

" Secretary of State Antony Blinken asked Wednesday why the world was pressuring the victim of terror, Israel, instead of pressuring the terrorist "aggressor," Hamas, whose surrender would end the war in Gaza and save the lives of many Palestinian civilians."

So if the concern is for "innocent Palestinian civilians", let Hamas surrender and it all ends.

Maybe I feel that way because you have only found fault with the IDF and Israel.

I will comment on, find fault or favor with whatever institution I care to. However, so far, I am working off the sparse military facts that are leaking out of Gaza. If you'd like to also discuss them, feel free. However, if you find them threatening, for what ever reason, I dont accept you lashing out; and maybe, if you cant explain them satisfactorily, you should start to ask questions yourself.

I've seen no criticism or outrage of Hamas. No criticism of the Palestinians who support and have sheltered Hamas and elected them into power.

No one is pushing a pro Hamas narrative or really much information about Hamas on here at all. And, as previously stated, I am not required to take a side to discuss this. I have no interst in an immature, visceral reaction to take sides. I hardly think being emotional about this makes for good analysis or helps anyone at all. That is unless your long military studies have taught you that when you dislike the data to succumb to your emotions, accuse people of partisanship and run around in circles as a sound tactic.

Hamas is a terrorist group. They freely admit and are proud to show off what they do to civilians. A bunch of fat cats living in luxury getting kids to commit murder. What the hell is there to comment about?

The IDF is supposed to be a premier fighting force with a code of conduct fighting on behalf of a western democracy and a member of an International community. You cant hold them to the same standards.

If I only criticized the Ukrainians, one might conclude I support the Russians.

Maybe, if someone was just criticizing the Ukrainians with no supporting material, analysis or reasoned arguments.

Please note that I'm not criticizing the IDF without verifiable proof or actions by the IDF themselves.

APDC again

" Secretary of State Antony Blinken asked Wednesday why the world was pressuring the victim of terror, Israel, instead of pressuring the terrorist "aggressor," Hamas, whose surrender would end the war in Gaza and save the lives of many Palestinian civilians."

So if your concern is for the "innocent Palestinian civilians", go demand that Hamas surrender and it all ends.

Good luck with that.

That's oddly written. Where did you get that blurb from?

"Blinken questions why Israel, and not Hamas, is facing demands for peace

Amid growing international calls for a cease-fire between Israel and Hamas, Secretary of State Antony Blinken on Wednesday criticized what he views as a disproportionate pressure campaign on Israel.

"What is striking to me is that … we hear many countries urging the end to this conflict, which we would all like to see," Blinken told reporters at his year-end news conference in Washington. "I hear virtually no one … demanding of Hamas that it stop hiding behind civilians, that it lay down its arms, that it surrender. This is over tomorrow if Hamas does that.

"How can it be that there are no demands made of the aggressor and only demands made of the victim?" he asked.

Blinken added that if the war ends now with Hamas continuing to rule the Gaza Strip and remaining a threat to Israel, "that's not in the interest of Israel. It's not in the interest of the region. It's not in the interest of the world."

It's true that Hamas outsmarted Israel several times over. The Oct 7th attack looks like a calculated attempt to get Israel to overreact. Although, I think Netanyahu's gov't also wanted to take the bait for their own reasons. It might've been smarter for Israel to build global sympathy and consensus. They've now blown that.

Blinken is right that Hamas has to go but it's the manner in which the IDF is doing this which is getting Israel into a PR nightmare. There are other problems too. At the moment, the IDF is probably the best recruiting tool for Hamas ever.

But this hasnt got anything to do with IDF fabrications and excesses. Or with their choice of tactics and military policies.

Iran is the elephant in the room, going back decades. A lot of ME countries would rather be doing business with each other and the world. There were about to be some trade arrangements between Israel and some of these. IMO, Iran was freaked out by this and unleashed its fanatics.

Legion, I bow to your military experience.

Thank you ! After 10+ years in the Infantry … I picked a few things up ! 😎

Is medieval murder worse than cutting edge murder?

So here we go … you are trying to equate what Hamas did to the IDF counter attack ? After over 700 dead of its people were killed, butchered, dismembered, tortured, raped, etc. ?

And again, in urban guerilla warfare there will be CD … No matter how much you try to limit it. That is the reality … What Hamas did as not CD it was, like all islamic terrorists, e.g. Hamas, AQ, ISIS, etc. target civilians.

You're not an official IDF spokesman but the concept of payback is currently running them into trouble because the International community believes this to be the case and roundly disapproves.

Again … your concept of reality of the dynamics of ground warfare supported by CAS is not at all accurate. Those IDF soldiers who know what happened to their fellow Israelis at the hands of Hamas will be looking for payback. You don't seem to understand how the human mind works in situations like this. There is No excuse or reason for what Hamas and their supporters did. I know you probably won't understand that concept.

Would you please show me where it is permitted that a nation gets to do whatever it wants because they suffered an inexcusable attack?

What if the attack was excusable?

You again don't understand the dynamics of this. Any nation has the right of self defense. Again, the IDF is not doing anything it wants or Gaza would look like the dark side of the Moon. With just using standard ordinance.

An excusable attack ? Now you are just play with words. Again, you don't understand the way warfare works. Even if the CGs are followed … But your bias is showing more than mine.

I hate islamic terrorists of any group, type, etc. I remember growing up and often hearing about islamic terrorists attacking non-combatants, e.g. the '72 Olympics. Again inexcusable … But you can try to justify what islamic terrorists do. Common sense tells me otherwise.

he problem with identifying who is and who isnt a supporter of Hamas is that it seems to be open to egregious error if not abuse.

Again your lack understanding of an insurgency. The enemy[like the VC or Taliban]don't wear uniforms so anyone can be suspect. In closed urban or jungle terrain it makes it even more difficult. So yes, CD and even Blue of Blue may happen. The IDF is not rounding up anybody and just shooting them. That is what islamic terrorists do.

In closed terrain you may have only a second or two to make that decision to engage a target. But again, you don't understand urban combat at the Fire Tm, Sqd, Plt, Co. level. Or probably at any other level for that matter.

Take the Al Shifa Hospital. The IDF assured us it was a Hamas HQ. Remember this map of interconnecting tunnels and buildings which was the seat of the Hamas mastermind operation?

You lack understanding of how intel and intel gathering works. Some times the intel is wrong or off a bit. And IIRC, there were weapons, etc. and tunnels found in and around that hospital. It is a standard islamic terrorist, insurgents, guerillas, etc. tactic to hide among civilians and blend in. You must understand that ? Read something from Mao and Che'.

And if a school, hospital, church, etc. is used by terrorists, insurgents, etc. it loses its protective status.

The IDF bombed that hospital incessantly, killing untold thousands. And when they took it over, they invited the Press to come see the proof that it was a Hamas command and control center…only it was some tables with a handful of small arms and grenades piled on them.

Killing 1000s ? I think that is a gross exaggeration. Again, your lack of understanding of what is going on … is … well massive. And again your bias is clear.

Also a small tunnel that the IDF assured us was a whopping 55 yards long. There was no evidence that the tunnels had been recently used by Hamas, no evidence that the tunnel connected to other buildings. However, no one could go into the tunnel to see all the Hamas HQ apparatus because it was booby trapped. But the press was assured it was all there.

Again, most media is biased. I was not there or either were you or anyone else here. So you believe what you believe is "correct". I will pretty much never take anything from any islamic terrorists or their supporters and many are in the media say. But again, I hate islamic terrorist. e.g. 9/11 convinced me …

And BTW Hamas terrorists killed US citizens on 07 Oct and some of the US hostages. One was found dead today. Those killed on 07 Oct etc. The only reason they were killed because they were Jews. No other reason. No excuse …

The IDF are suffering a lot of wounded…seriously wounded.

Yes that sadly is expected. The IDF knows how to take care of their wounded. Most of those seriously WIA will survive. Just like many of US and our allied troops in A'stan and Iraq. Sadly, many have lost limbs, etc. But in any other war these WIAs would be dead.

Regardless, again you don't understand how MOUT works. Study Stalingrad, Manilla, Jerusalem '67. That being said the IDF losses are very low. E.g. losses in Stalingrad were more than 600 a day …

Again the IDF knows what they are doing. That has 0 to do with bias. It's a fact. And yes, again Hamas and their supporters will continue to "reap the whirlwind".

'The projected casualties to completely eliminate Hamas in this Ham Handed way are unacceptable.'

Unacceptable to you. I'd have liked to see Gaza entirely carpet bombed into dust before the first pair of IDF boots went anywhere near the place. Every single building flattened. Hamas/Palestinian, Palestinian/Hamas?? Really not worth wasting your time trying to identify the minor differences.

'The projected casualties to completely eliminate Hamas in this Ham Handed way are unacceptable.'

Unacceptable to you. I'd have liked to see Gaza entirely carpet bombed into dust before the first pair of IDF boots went anywhere near the place. Every single building flattened. Hamas/Palestinian, Palestinian/Hamas?? Really not worth wasting your time trying to identify the minor differences.

Unacceptable to the entire world. At the moment, the only country that stands with Israel is the USA and that support is now wavering.

The IDF has fairly flattened Gaza. And Israel is being accused of indiscriminate bombing which is a war crime.

A war crime is its own violation. There are no justifications for war crimes. If you either root for or approve of war crimes, that is your business but by definition you cede any moral high ground.

No criticism of the Palestinians who support and have sheltered Hamas and elected them into power.

Not that electing someone into power creates a right to be killed but you do realize that, due to their youth, the majority of Palestinians in Gaza could never have voted for Hamas the last time there was an election and before Hamas' Coup d'้tat?

Also you keep, rather randomly, referring to "from the river to the sea" as some sort of Hamas mandate to erase Israel. This term is in Likud's charter (an earlier charter) for the same reasons as it is in Hamas' charter.

Legion +++
Legion and Gunney welcome to my world. 😉

"And Israel is being accused of indiscriminate bombing which is a war crime"

Like the casualty figures coming out of Gaza, all based on what Hamas is telling it's sheep,

Tally Ho!

Legion +1

Thanks for getting at some of the reality of being in a this kind of fight, as the IDF soldiers are. Again, I go back to the emotional side of how tough this can be. I spent a while being treated for PTSD.

The IDF and the hostages incident….they live with it. What choice? No one gets to be the same after this. They do the job, there are physical wounds and then something beyond that…

And I get medieval…it is a visceral, personal way of killing and torture that reflects the acceptance of these acts as a part of life, somehow understandable, as we might assume it happened in less enlightened times. In street talk, we know exactly what it means now.

I don't agree with the use of the big bombs. But I am not there. I don't know what the insiders know. There is no level to which Hamas will not stoop in using the civilian population.

APDC: "And Israel is being accused of indiscriminate bombing which is a war crime"

Nick from sommerset: Like the casualty figures coming out of Gaza, all based on what Hamas is telling it's sheep,

Tally Ho!

The numbers are believed by everyone except the Netanyahu government. A government that has been caught lying multiple times. In fact, due to their remarkable Intel capabilities, they seem to know the number of Hamas fighters killed with precision but can never give any number at all for civilian killed.

On two prior occasions, the numbers that Hamas has released were adopted by the IDF as accurate.

One wonders what sheep would make of all this.

If Hamas surrenders, it all stops. No more civilian casualties. They started it, now they can end it. Simple as that.

35thOVI: Nickinsomerset – do you understand now? Cheers😉

It doesnt look like he does understand. But then you dont seem to be on top of events either. It's amazing that you want to belittle me and yet you need both allies and consensus; what would the sheep say?

35thOVI: If Hamas surrenders, it all stops. No more civilian casualties. They started it, now they can end it. Simple as that.

Hamas isnt an army, they dont have the capability to organize a coordinated surrender.

Legion +++
Legion and Gunney welcome to my world.

Your world? Are you sure theres enough room in there for all three of you?

You are all free to have your opinions but if youre going to pick a side and run with them without reading or considering anything else you can hardly claim to know whats going on let alone maintain a morally superior air.

Tortarella: I don't agree with the use of the big bombs. But I am not there. I don't know what the insiders know. There is no level to which Hamas will not stoop in using the civilian population.

Regev has just reiterated that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields except that there is no evidence at all.

Actually the Israeli army has been convicted and ordered to stop several times for using Palestinians as human shields. Meanwhile, there is no concrete evidence that Hamas has ever done this. At most, theyre carelessly hiding among the population of Gaza but that hardly justifies killing everyone. If Israel wants to simply come out and say they want to kill lots of civilians it would be more honest…oh wait, they have said that, multiple times.

In addition when asked why they're dropping so many bombs on Gaza, Regev says it's because Hamas is hiding among the civilians but when asked if he would drop bombs on a Hamas leader hiding among Israelis, he said no, they'd send in the special forces.

Thus, it isn't that Hamas is hiding among the civilians, its that Hamas is hiding among civilians that Israel doesn't mind killing.

"If Hamas surrenders, the war ends."

It's a Simple concept, please try and grasp it.

Hamas holds the keys to peace. But they seem to want more bloodshed.

"Hamas rejected an Israeli offer on Wednesday to implement a weeklong cease-fire if the militant group releases 40 hostages, according to Egyptian officials mediating the talks. Hamas said it will only consider freeing hostages after a cease-fire goes into effect and Gaza receives more humanitarian aid."

@35thOVI

It may be a simple concept for simple minds but the Military experts say it's not easy for Hamas to surrender as a body.

You have to decide are Hamas an army, a government or a terrorist group? It cant be that they're one thing for one reason and another thing for another reason.

In the meantime, it sounds like you subscribe to the "self genocide" theory which is the theory of all morally good people everywhere.

The IDF excesses are piling up.

Parading those Palestinians around naked is a Geneva Convention Violation.

Then Israel lied about using white phosphorous and now they admit it but they assure us all that they're using it tastefully.

Man, it's so tough being the good guys.

You said:

"It's true that Hamas outsmarted Israel several times over. The Oct 7th attack looks like a calculated attempt to get Israel to overreact."

Then you say;

"You have to decide are Hamas an army, a government or a terrorist group? It cant be that they're one thing for one reason and another thing for another reason."

So based on your previous statement, they are organized with central leadership.

So Hamas surrenders… it's all over.

…..and another one added to the Stifle bucket…not an issue, it's a big bucket!!

(Not you OVI!! :-) )

I was pretty sure who you meant. 😉

Gunny B, 35th, Nick, Tort +1/ea !

What's Medieval Murder? Is this a special type of murder?

Normally in many times in modern warfare this type of war crime does not happen. And Hamas, ISIS, etc. make this as part of their terror campaign. It is protocol, SOP, etc. …

This is Medieval Murder? It's never been done by anyone else or in the modern era?

NOT as SOP … Hamas, ISIS purposefully butcher non-combatants. It is the way they do business. Or don't you know how terrorists work, like so many other things you post …

It's not an exaggeration. Im working off of published and internationally accepted casualty figures.

If any of those numbers come from Hamas they are inaccurate … I'll await until this conflict is over to get more accurate numbers. But you can continue to believe as you wish …

Youre going to find out what my understanding is…buckle up.

Oh stop being silly ! BTW I've been inserted by UH-1s and UH-60s in the 101 on FTXs many times without being buckled up with the doors wide open. I don't think you can come anywhere near to that thrill. And BTW I liked it !

My bias? Soooo, who is neutral here? You're neutral? Mr Medieval Murder guy.

Yes I still hate islamic terrorists … so when it comes to that scum. Yes I am biased.

But they're not conducting that much urban guerilla warfare. I think because they know the casualties will be immense. Theyre mostly bombing the surface.

Again, you don't understand how this works. They are fighting an urban insurgency. Against fanatics. You prep the battlefield with CAS & FA … first. But I guarantee the IDF Recon, Spec Ops etc. are moving using stealth and darkness to infiltrate in on known and likely enemy positions. Looking for hostages as well.

their elite units was just badly ambushed and mauled.

If true you seem to revel in terrorists killing soldiers who are not terrorists. Which again happens in closed terrain. But IDF losses are still very low considering the terrain they have to operate in.

You ever been trained to operate in urban or jungle warfare ? If you were you wouldn't be making a lot of claims that shows you lack understand of the reality of this type of warfare. Where did you get your training and experience in Infantry and Combined Arms ops ?

I wont understand this concept? Oh, I like you.

If you did you wouldn't be making a lot of the comments you post. What was your rank, who did you serve with ?

Evidently the IDF also lacks it.

Again you don't understand how intel works. And in many cases the IDF will not publicize what they know and don't know. again, they are operating in an urban insurgency … a very tough situation. I don't think you understand this. Or want to as you seem to support islamic terrorist. Again where were you trained in intel ops ?

I asked you to show me where it says a nation can do anything it wants to people because of an inexcusable attack.

You interpreted my words to fit your narrative. As I think again you don't understand a lot of what you speak. Save for the hatred for the IDF.

The dark side of the Moon? Have you taken a look at Gaza recently?

Yes … but it does not look like the Dark Side of the Moon … not so far. Preparatory and supporting fires into known or likely enemy positions will cause damage/CD … period …

Except that for someone who doesnt understand, I seem to have to fill you in on what's going on. And again with the bias. WHat's my bias, that I dont like hospitals and churches getting targeted? OK, Im biased about that.

Yes you are as biased as I am. Again, if terrorists are using locations, like hospitals, churches, etc. they are no longer protected. The IDF had dropped leaflets to tell everyone to get out of many of those locations. But Hamas wanted to use them as human meat shields. Hamas is ultimately to blame for all these deaths.

The Israeli newspapers, who will publish on any topic have shied away from the al Shifa hospital situation because it is a colossal screw up of the most embarrassing kind.

That may be … but again fighting an urban insurgency no matter how one tries CD will occur. You don't seem to understand that. Again, where did you get your military knowledge ?

And considering how you like to get outraged by the killing of civilians, what do you think about the mother/daughter killed in a church; most likely by an IDF sniper?

Most likely ? Hmmm ? You need more information to support that allegation. You ever watch Law & Order ?

The IDF have been caught with their pants down several times already.

Who do you think Hamas' supporters are?

Well that may have happened? Again ambushing a unit in urban terrain can occur. Did you ever go thru ambush training ?

And the supporters of Hamas are some of the local Palestinians. But they wear no unform so who knows ? You should have learned that is you counter insurgency training?

I dont think the war is going particularly well for the IDF and they're covering it up. It's been an embarrassment for a while now. And if it takes too much longer, there will be severe repercussions both within Israel and globally.

Well from what I see, not being there it appears the IDF is doing pretty well. Key terrain has been taken, Hamas has suffered very heavy losses. The IDF is cleaning up the North and moving to attack targets in the South. The Hamas locations in Kan Yunis, etc. Again if you understand military ops you'd see that.

You ignored that article about the killing of those Israeli hostages. The IDF knew they were there, and in spite of that they said that they thought it was a Hamas trap and that the building was booby trapped. They left out that the dog ate their homework. Oh wait, the dog had been killed. Probably the best soldier in that squad.

So the IDF killed their own people on purpose ? Again you don't understand the dynamics of urban warfare. That was a big mistake. But again in urban guerilla warfare that may happen. I was saddened to hear their dog was killed during the fire fight. I'd preferred it been more Hamas terrorists. I like dogs much better than islamic terrorists. But many of the terrorists are still getting killed. The IDF's assessment of it may have been a Hamas trap was not unrealistic. But I find it hard to believe the IDF shot their own people on purpose. Some who came across the phenomena known as the "Fog of War" would know that is most likely how it happened. But neither of us were there, yes ? And your knowledge of MOUT again is lacking, IMO.

Apparently you decide who gets to live and die in the vacuum of your own personal hatred against Islamic terrorists?

I hate islamic terrorists … How could I decide who lives of dies? May be if I was there with the IDF, I may have had some input. But I far too old and crippled for that now. However, you just seem not to want to understand about urban warfare. Did you miss that in your training ?

The projected casualties to completely eliminate Hamas in this Ham Handed way are unacceptable.

Not all Hamas will be killed. Some will survive, and they will be hunted like we continue to be kill off like the remaining ISIS terrorists. The IDF is going to make sure 07 Oct will never happen again. And to do this many Hamas and their supporters will have to die. But I'm sure you may not understand that … like a number of things we have discussed here …

And both moslems & Jews don't eat ham/pork …

I was saddened to hear their dog was killed during the fire fight.

I read an article a few days ago that said the dog was sent into the building that the IDF had had received fire from! :(

"According to the probe, on December 10, troops of the Golani Brigade's reconnaissance unit encountered a group of Hamas operatives who opened fire at them from a building.

During the gun battle, an Oketz dog was sent into the building, which the army later determined was where the hostages were being held. The dog was killed by the Hamas gunmen, who were in turn killed by the Golani soldiers . . ."

link

Then I looked up the Oketz Unit:

"Another use for dogs were to strap explosives to them, and then blow them up (by remote control) when they reached their target. In Operation Blue and Brown (Kachol Ve'hum) in Lebanon, 1986 such a dog was used in the failed attempt to assassinate Ahmed Jibril. The operation, which Bergman calls "an embarrassing flop", ended with one Israeli killed, and the dog was "frighted by the shooting and ran away". The dog was later recovered by Hizbollah"

link

Then I looked up that operation:

"The Oketz Unit, the IDF canine special force, had prepared up to a dozen specially trained Doberman Pinschers, fitted with backpacks filled with explosives. The dogs had been trained to enter the caves, whereafter the explosives were to be ignited by remote control. It is unclear how many of the originally a dozen dogs actually were deployed in the battle. Some of them were apparently killed by the Palestinian fire and some ran shell-shocked back to their Israeli owners. There are no indications that any of the dogs caused any damage"

link

This seems like shades of Soviet mine dogs.

Can't they send robots, not dogs? :(

Wow cut back on the spiked eggnog, or maybe Arak in your case.

Again Legion ++

APDC 5 lumps of coal on the 25th.

Yes…. Hamas surrenders and no more war.

Maybe all those anti semitic, deluded and brainwashed student protesters should change those chants of: "from the river to the sea" and "intifada", to
"Hey Hey Ho Ho, Hamas surrenders and the war will go!".

I know the below is just more "IDF" and "white colonialist Jew" propaganda. Unlike your unbiased Ivy League educated sources. Right? Ivy League 🤔 Isn't the current US center of those anti semitic marchers? No… I must be wrong. 😉

"Kindergarten toys? IDF troops found toy boxes filled with dozens of mortar shells, warheads and RPG type anti-tank missiles in a kindergarten in Gaza. t.co/akyJeBnX6i / X


link

Just finished reading your essay Legion. Admire the effort mate but seriously, why bother taking the time responding to that type? (That type being crushingly apparent after no more than a few of their posts traditionally?) You know you're just wasting time and effort.

Steve +1

35th +1

Gunny

why bother taking the time responding to that type? (That type being crushingly apparent after no more than a few of their posts traditionally?) You know you're just wasting time and effort.

You are correct … as with his responses I am wasting my time.

Anyway, its Xmas eve. Got a fridge full of booze, I'm not deployed (and won't be ever again) so cheers one and all. Drink until you can't feel your face!!!

And cheers to you as well. Drink on!

Christmas truce! Merry Christmas gentlemen!

🙂 and you too.

HAPPY FRakk'n Christmas !!!! 🎅 Ho, Ho, Ho !!! 😎🤩

Mother and uncle of a US serviceman are rescued from Gaza in a secret operation

link

So IDF exchanging fire across Egyptian border? Only found a small article on this from yesterday without much detail but that has some interesting potential!

Steve +1

Steve that is the first time I had heard that. And the report said the IDF did it. If I understand it correctly. Which is really no surprise. They are a very highly trained Army. But I think many forget, IIRC 33 Americans were captured by Hamas, etc. IIRC 6 are still MIA. IF this was anywhere else SEALs, DELTA, etc. would be doing the rescues.

Again, the IDF are more than capable for this type of op. A former SEAL frequently interviewed on FOX who trained with the IDF Spec Ops said they are very good at what they do. If anyone should know he would.

The American citizens in Hamas's hands, seems many in the media have lost interest in this tragedy.

Gunny +1

Gunny – Had not heard that but it wouldn't surprise me. However, Egypt and Israel have been getting along for a very long time. I wonder if one of the islamic terrorists, e.g. moslem brotherhood in Egypt had something to do with this ?

AFAIK … That is another reason why Egypt did not want to allow Palestinians in. Hamas is believed to be "allied"(?) with the moslem brotherhood. And there would be no way to tell Hamas, etc. from the Palestinian non-combatants. And those supporters of Hamas.

The IDF is a poorly trained reservist force with very little combat experience which is one of the reasons why the average age of a major is 23; I think a staff sergeant averages about 19 or 20 years old.

Oh and Bibi just declared that Israel was going to control from the river to the Sea. Now where have we heard that slogan before?

link

The IDF has very quickly and efficiently, cleared North Gaza and Gaza city. The move to the South is also being pretty well executed. In the Infantry School, Combined Arms Course etc. The evaluation would be the IDF captured a lot of territory in a short amount of time, with minimal losses. I can see/hear the LTC at Combined Arms school pointing and saying look at the map !

The IDF attrited much of Hamas and their supporters as that was part of their mission. And they continue to search for the hostages.

Was there CD ? Yes, that can only be mitigated. The reported number is 20,000 + 8000 Hamas. Again in an islamic terrorists insurgency in MOUT. This a very tough mission for any Army. But overall, the IDF is doing pretty good job. With the mission they have to accomplish.

The IDF has very quickly and efficiently, cleared North Gaza and Gaza city.

The fighting is flaring up in the North.

Was there CD ? Yes, that can only be mitigated.

It's not CD it's Intentional infliction of civilian casualties which has been an official Israeli tactic for decades.

It's tough mission for a competent army but for a poorly trained and poorly led army it's going to be very tough. IDF is rich in tek but poor in training. Even if the reservists were actually well trained and experienced, it wouldn't be for tunnel fighting. That's why they're trying to starve and punish the civilians.

For a variety of reasons, we dont really know how many of those killed are Hamas. For some reason, the IDF is so successful that they wont provide any proof or allow any inspectors or observers into Gaza.

Based on my training and experience the IDF is doing pretty well. I'm sure our instructors at the Infantry School and Combined Arms Course would agree. Both the North and South sectors still are active. And the IDF continues to clear both AOs.

The IDF cannot stop their offensive ops … they have to finish removing Hamas, etc. as threats and in all of Gaza. Hamas has nowhere to go. The Israeli Navy has the coast covered. And they can't slip into Egypt. And everywhere else the IDF is actively hunting them down.

The topic of IDF soldiers ages is another point. As both a Rifle Plt Ldr , then Mech Co. Cdr most of my soldiers were 18-25. They were well trained and did their jobs. Of course, anyone who has served and/or commanded in the Military would know many of your troops are young. The case is the same with the IDF and generally any other Army.

If asked what makes a good Infantryman, my short answer is they have to have more testosterone than common sense. The job is inherently dangerous and risky even many times in training. Again, Of course, any Vet would know that.

🤔
Hamas surrenders, Palestinian civilians live. Such an easy solution. Leads one to believe that Hamas does not care about civilian deaths. That the Palestinians really mean nothing to them at all.