"Hamas vs Israel... again" Topic

As I posted here elsewhere …

Even to the point that many in our Gov't, the UN, Women's groups, etc., are not coming down hard on the horror that Hamas did on 07 Oct.

There is no way to say it otherwise … The US Gov't needs to stand firm condemning these war crimes. But our leadership knows an election is coming. And they don't want to upset the supporters of Palestine, Hamas/islamic terrorism, the intellectual academics, etc. That are calling Israel the white oppressors. Does that sound familiar ?

POTUS at least has stood firm for Israel and drops even more in the polls because of it. I think it's reasonable to remind the IDF to try to avoid CD. That's as far as he goes, otherwise he gets this part, sent aid immediately, gave his okay to whatever the IDF needed to do, despite the political price.

The US is not a signatory to the International Court. Our international justice is different. But in this case justified IMO. We have lived with Iranian terrorist killing since 1980 at least. It's time to make them stop. Then deal with a Palestine.

These other people in government who do not support Israel or Ukraine are making it very difficult to get the best outcome for the world.

Generally I agree with much of what you posted. But the IDF does Not need to be told to avoid/limit CD. However, as we know MOUT is very bloody for all involved. But in this case, the IDF losses are low. However, it is estimated that 10,000+ Hamas and other islamic terrorists have been killed. And 5000 civilians. The IDF dropped leaflets telling the civilians to get out of locations as IDF is going to start bombing, etc.

Hamas won't let many of their own people leave. But use them as human meat shields.

The US is not a signatory to the International Court. Our international justice is different. But in this case justified IMO.

We see how many times in the UN that the US is voted down, etc., by many other countries. Many who we give a lot of money/aid, etc. to every year.

These other people in government who do not support Israel or Ukraine are making it very difficult to get the best outcome for the world.

Sadly yes …

"Forty-plus White House interns have sent a letter to President Joe Biden demanding a permanent ceasefire between Israel and the Hamas terrorist organization, further accusing him of having "ignored" the "pleas of the American people."

NBC News first shared the terse missive addressed to Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris which also contained a call for the release of all hostages "including Palestinian political prisoners," alongside an end to "Israeli apartheid" in the region.

It is supported by more than 40 interns who work in the White House and other executive branch offices, according to the text. The signees all chose to remain anonymous.

"We, the undersigned Fall 2023 White House and Executive Office of the President interns, will no longer remain silent on the ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people," the interns began.

They then went on to set out the conditions of their demand for an end to hostilities while claiming to be acting on "the voices of the American people."

"We heed the voices of the American people and call on the Administration to demand a permanent ceasefire," the interns wrote. "We are not the decision makers of today, but we aspire to be the leaders of tomorrow, and we will never forget how the pleas of the American people have been heard and thus far, ignored."

The letter ends with the declaration that anything bar a ceasefire and an end to "Israel's mass slaughter of innocent civilians in the Gaza Strip" will not be tolerated.
"

"We are not the decision makers of today, but we aspire to be the leaders of tomorrow,"

I FEAR for tomorrow.

Biden stands alone, it seems. He has never had full support from the left on a number of things, despite the nonsense media. But he is committed to free speech as well and he will likely say something vague about this related to the 1st Amendment. He is not going to change.

As I said, I don't get the level of support Palestinians have gotten, but maybe because we are so focused on the acts of terror that started this war. I have had enough of Irans endless fanatic brutality and disruption. Israel is by far our best ally against Iran, a rogue terror state that must be dealt with.

I did see the latest IDF briefing yesterday in which the commander was very pleased with their estimate that they are only killing two civilians for every Hamas soldier they get, and he said that this is a very good ratio for this type of fighting. He did not seem to understand how this might be seen around the world. And there is no way to know how many bodies are underneath the rubble. They have no rescue machinery and it will take years to uncover.

People are apparently not buying that there is no other way to get Hamas. I wanted the IDF to get in and do what they had to do as fast as possible. But the reality of this type of fighting makes this difficult. Now Gaza is a wasteland and Iran will recruit on all of this and keep doing horrible things.

As the war continues,it is occurring to me that this is such a deep wound on both sides that there may be a ceasefire eventually, but no peace.

I think we all fear for tomorrow these days.

Tort my opinion:

There has never been, nor ever will be peace in that area, as long as Israel exists. Isreal is an anti-Islamic enclave in the heart of the Islamic controlled world. It is another Crusader State in the Islamic view. From their perspective, what they conquered, is always theirs and Allah's. What is not conquered, is still available to be conquered in the name of Allah.

As I have said, I view this all as continuation of the conflict that started in the 600's.

As far as Gaza, think of it as Stalingrad, except imagine it full of German civilians, with the German soldiers hiding and fighting from the civilians homes and many of the German civilians having family and friends among the German soldiers, or being sympathetic to them. The casualties are inevitable.

Isreal did not perpetuate this latest conflict. What was done was barbaric in its intensity. I don't blame them for wanting to settle this and seeking retribution.

I think we all fear for tomorrow these days.

Yes, the US and much of the world is in a bad way. But I look forward to the IDF taking out Hamas, etc. Anytime islamic terrorists die is a good thing IMO. Kill many, kill often. They will make more.

I also look forward to Iran reaping the whirlwind for support of Hamas, etc. But I don't think that will happen anytime soon though. Maybe in a year … but not now with the current US leadership …

Iran cannot get away with their crimes against humanity …

The Current Admin is also beginning to position itself to escape blame for possible terrorist attacks inside the US, which I'm sure Iran is threatening us with -- and which they've been planning for.

FBI Director says U.S. is facing highest risk of attack in YEARS: Chris Wray says there are 'blinking lights everywhere' and warns terrorists will 'exploit' the southern border
Chris Wray tells Congress the threat has gone to a whole 'other level'
He warns violent extremists could draw inspiration from the Hamas attack on October 7.

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Isn't that rich? I mean, they have had a deliberate Open Border policy for years allowing millions of people to flood into the US without any oversight or awareness of who they are, causing rising crime, social turmoil and economic costs, and security risks, while attacking anyone trying to stop the flood by using Administrative power and propaganda to label people as racist and such, and NOW they say the Open Border is a security issue?? That THEY intentionally caused?!?!

Flood 'em out, good!!

Israel setting up seawater pumps to flood Hamas tunnels

Israeli troops have been pictured setting up pumps to flood Hamas tunnels with water.

Long pipes can be seen running from the sea up the beach and into Gaza in images released by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF).

It follows reports that the IDF was moving to ruin the terror group's vast subterranean network by setting up five pumps capable of sending hundreds of thousands of litres of water cascading underground every hour.

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And another article on it.

In a roundabout, Maybe pharaoh and the parting of the Red Sea again.

Subject: First images 'show Israel preparing to flood Hamas tunnels with sea water as troops set up pipes and pumps in Gaza' | Daily Mail Online


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Quick video

Subject: Shocking Video: Here Are the 16 Innocent Israelis Hamas Massacred on the Beach in Southern Israel on Oct. 7


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35th, I have been agreeing, but my point is that the the optics of this are not great for the IDF.

Playing the victim will be easy for Hamas with the daily images of Gaza being razed and bodies in the rubble. The faster IDF can get it over with, the better.

"Playing the victim will be easy for Hamas with the daily images of Gaza being razed and bodies in the rubble. The faster IDF can get it over with, the better."

And in the US, who is it showing these images. One should ask what are their motivations for doing such? Are they not siding with the anti-Israeli, pro-Palestinian protesters on the College campuses and in some of the streets of our cities. Did they not too, attend these same Colleges as these protesters? How can anyone who sees and reads about the barbarity of the Hamas attacks, (rape, beheading, live burnings, executions), show sympathy for them. The anti-semitic attitudes being espoused by these protesters, politicians, professors and media, is unforgivable.

SB+1

35OVI +1

but my point is that the the optics of this are not great for the IDF.

No matter what the IDF does it will be vilified. Yes, CD will occur in MOUT. Hamas is using their people as human meat shields. If the Israelis aired the 47min from the Hamas Go Pro cameras. Where their actions are medieval, barbaric, etc. But even then, some will say it is faked by the Israels, etc.

Playing the victim will be easy for Hamas with the daily images of Gaza being razed and bodies in the rubble.

The academic intellectuals, leftists, progressives, etc. have took a lesson from Marx. Not haves and have nots, but oppressors v oppressed.

All Whites are oppressors and everyone else are oppressed. So, using that skewed logic Jews are white and the Palestinians/Hamas/Hezbollah, etc. are brown people. So, no matter what with this dogma the White Jews are colonizers, occupiers, invaders, etc.

Now this thought process by used the students, teachers, etc. rioting in the streets worldwide. The reasons couldn't be more inaccurate, biased, etc. Just plain ignorant … They don't know the real history, etc. of that region, etc. Only the Kool Aid they get from the plethora indoctrinators, etc.

And in the US, who is it showing these images. One should ask what are their motivations for doing such? Are they not siding with the anti-Israeli, pro-Palestinian protesters on the College campuses and in some of the streets of our cities.

There is an election coming up. They want to appeal to everybody. But it seems the islamic terrorists and their supporters, etc.[many of whom are "White"] are the target voters.

Subject: ‘I Couldn't Breathe': Watch Arabs React After Screening Footage Of Hamas Slaughtering Civilians


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So will they continue to support their moslem brothers in Hamas ?

Whoa! I am talking about propaganda warfare opportunities for Hamas, not condemning the IDF. Trying to understand Americans who support Palestinians but not Hamas.
How does anyone support Hamas? They point out long standing Israeli aggression. This makes no sense to me given the horrendous crimes of Oct 7. On the other side, many insist all Palestinians are Hamas who support what happened on Oct. 7. This defies logic and common sense.

Given that a majority of Americans have favored a separate Panlestinian state in recent years but are not likely big supporters of mass murder and atrocities, the victim strategy of Hamas seems logical as a propaganda tactic, smoothing over and trying to justify the war. College kids are susceptible. The three elitist universities trying to explain themselves deserve the hit%s they are taking.

If I was running the IDF and told to limit civilian casualties by the US government, my reply would be that we have no intention of doing a Hiroshima in Gaza, or even a Tokyo, Dresden or Hamburg. But if Hamas wants to make it into a Manila, that's on them.

I have every sympathy for Israel.

I thought it inevitable that smashing up the Gaza strip would lose them support. I suspect in the long term it will produce more new recruits for it's enemies than are killed.
You can't kill everyone and many of those losing family members will turn to hatred.

Outside of Gaza there are anti Semitics of course. There are also people watch the footage of crying babies, children et al. See the rubbled buildings. Some proportion of viewers will think the Israeli actions as so extreme they feel for the victims.
Technically, the Israeli occupation of the left bank is illegal. The UN condemned it way back. Security council "expressed concerns" link

I don't think Israel is likely to make WW2 comparisons. The powers that ended the Holocaust and have supported them ever since may seem hypocritical, but the idea remains a good, if impractical goal.

Security council "expressed concerns"

Yes, everyone in the UN save for the US and Israel voted to have a cease fire for humanitarian reason, etc. in Gaza. The IDF is no going to stop until they complete their mission. Also, a report said, the two IDF troops were wounded trying rescue some hostages. As I said I believed Mossad, Shin Bet, IDF Spec Ops, etc. are actively looking to the hostages.

Another report said now many Hamas are surrendering. That adds another complexity to the situation. But they don't have the eggs to fight to the death, I guess ? They don't want to go to Paradise ?

These captured Hamas terrorists, etc., can't be released. Just like with the thousands of ISIS in camps guarded by the Kurds, etc. In both Syria and Iraq, IIRC. Both men's camps and women & children's camps. All are unrepentant, they fly the ISIS flag, etc. They can't be released. As they will not go back to being peaceful farmers, etc. They will go back to being islamic terrorists.

Hamas, etc. would do the same. And as with ISIS some of the Hamas are war criminals. That can't go unpunished.

Tort +1

Subject: Blinken blasted for ‘lecturing' Israelis, as John McCain's 2014 warning about diplomat resurfaces


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Subject: Jewish man beaten and robbed in potential hate crime in Brooklyn, NYPD says


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Subject: Jewish man attacked in lower Manhattan Duane Reade: police


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Subject: Chaya Raichik on X: "Flying over @Harvard today! t.co/SaGOroarWN / X


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I am interested in the apparent defense lapses by the IDF and other related Israeli agencies leading up to October 7. Not because I want the Israelis to suffer through the usual American-style political outrage game, but what exactly went wrong with the Iron Dome, border security, etc?

The whole para-glider thing just seems like a movie plot to me. And how did Hamas apparently have so much intel? Before this, I would have thought Israel was pretty much immune from such a large scale assault. Hopefully, they have dealt with these apparent issues?

@Tortorella from what I've been reading they became complacent and felt they had contained Hamas, and some people in leadership didn't want to have their peace disturbed. For example, the commander who received the intel reports we've read about having been sent as warnings in the news didn't want to deal with it -- he wanted a peaceful tour to get his next promotion, don't come to me with bad news. So institutional complacence, combined with some incompetence.

Well, that delusion must have come to an end in a hurry… I hope the conclusion to this war is decisive, but no western nation can ever let down their guard.

I thought I read something about some of the Dome was shut down in October for some reason, maybe maintenence. And those para glider guys must have trained somewhere. But it sounds like this whole thing could have been prevented to some extent. Not good….

Blinken blasted for ‘lecturing' Israelis,

I can't say what I think about this "diplomat" and others in this admin, some in Congress, etc. The IDF is going out for payback/blood for the barbarity which was carried out by Hamas on 07 Oct. The IDF won't stop until their mission is complete.

The IDF shows how it is done. This article is from the Jerusalem Post, some may say it may be biased. Based on my past training, experience, etc. the comments are spot on.

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The whole para-glider thing just seems like a movie plot to me. And how did Hamas apparently have so much intel? Before this, I would have thought Israel was pretty much immune from such a large scale assault. Hopefully, they have dealt with these apparent issues?

This was a tactic that very much depended on surprise. As many attacks do. They wouldn't be able to pull this off again. Yes, the gliders can avoid/go under the radar, etc. As they must fly low.

But their low altitude makes them very vulnerable. They are easily seen and small arms fire from an Infantryman's rifle all the way up to a .50 cal. HMG, etc. Can easily shoot them down. Israel suffered from an almost unforgivable sin … I.e. underestimating their enemy. This will never happen again.

Now with the IDF on the warpath … Hamas, etc. will suffer the wrath of a force they can't stop. Gaza and Hamas, etc. will never be the same.

The weapon carried by the Islamic Jihad terrorist in the Jerusalem Post article Legion linked is worthy of note.

I found this very interesting and enlightening

Subject: 1 in 5 young Americans don't believe the Holocaust was real: Survey


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It's frequently said that civilian casualties will create terrorists.
This isn't born out by history.
Massive civilian deaths on both sides in WW2 did not create mobs of terrorists. We haven't been attacked by "Remember Dresden!" suicide bombers. The two Koreas do not launch terrorists at each other (with a few Nork exceptions), or anyone else, despite the Korean war killing an awful lot of civilians.
Ideology creates terrorists. Very specifically, an ideology that idolizes terrorists, justifies terror, and gives terrorists social status. People will do crazy things for social status.
The people with the banners and the bullhorns are creating terrorists.

I think I have said before that civilian casualties make families ripe for recruiting. Hamas is known to visit the families of civilian casualties to offer sympathy and recruit new soldiers.

In a sense I am saying the same thing. Dresden is not a good comparison. No religious motivation for victims to respond in a war that was already lost. No cultural acceptance of suicide as part of a warrior code as in Japan. And no clear way to strike back in any case.

Ben +1 …

1 in 5 young Americans don't believe the Holocaust was real

The US educational system across the board has been hijacked. By activists who don't teach reality. But lessons that favor their narrative and agenda. We can see with what is going on at many of the universities, etc. Things even being taught in grade schools and high schools, etc. The biggest threat to the USA is from within …

And IMO with 07 Oct being the very last straw. Hamas and its supporters have to be severely culled. In an attempt to stop this madness. Which at this point means many will have die. As usual the IDF's losses are very low considering it is MOUT. About under 100(?). May they RIP.

However, Hamas and its supporters have taken 5000-6000 casualties with a large number of civilian losses. As Hamas is using their own people as human meat shields, along with an insurgency in a MOUT environment, those losses were inevitable. With more to come. The Gaza Strip will change forever …

Hamas Veterans Paid By the EU

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Armand

Subject: Hamas Senior Official Sami Abu Zuhri Threatens U.S., Britian | MEMRI


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Ben +1

Hamas Senior Official Sami Abu Zuhri Threatens U.S., Britian

With the gov't sanctioned open borders there may be terrorists here we don't even know about.

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Dapeters

Here you go

Subject: Israeli Mom Whose Son Was Mistakenly Killed By IDF Sends Incredible Message Of Support To Troops

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That is an incredibly generous sentiment by this Israeli mom at what has to be the lowest point of her life.

Apparently, days before the three Israeli hostages were killed by the IDF, there was an IDF dog with a Go Pro camera attached killed near their location. Their voices could be heard and identified and the IDF knew they were in the area. Thus, why was greater care not taken?

And further, what sort of policies are the IDF operating under? Why are they shooting unarmed civilians at all?

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So APDC you view the IDF and Israel as being in the wrong in this war?

So APDC you view the IDF and Israel as being in the wrong in this war?

Do you think if you look at the full record of events and ask probing questions it's indicative of a judgment?

If you were researching a military book, would you ignore the parts you thought were dis-favorable?

I want to point out that both the IDF and the Israeli government admit that this was a screw up of colossal proportions. Something I havent come close to saying.

Maybe you could ask them if they think both the IDF and Israel are wrong in this war?

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"Do you think if you look at the full record of events and ask probing questions it's indicative of a judgment?"

No, I am looking at "your" full work across multiple threads (yes I know Bill obliterated them) and have seen only criticism of the IDF.

Israel did not start this war. The cowards of Hamas, hiding among the civilians, in their homes, churches and hospitals, started this. They broke a truce, murdered civilian men, women and children. Burnt them alive, rapped both women and men, slit their throats, beheaded them, shot them, tortured them, perpetrated all types of inhumanity. They filmed it and called friends and family and bragged about it.

This was not the first time, nor the last according to them. They previously indiscriminately fired rockets and shells into Israeli cities, not caring who they killed.

Mistakes happen in city fighting, when the enemy hides among civilians and pose as civilians.

It is not the IDF policy to purposely kill civilians. It was exactly the policy of Hamas and over 50 percent of the Palestinians support them.

I don't believe the majority of Palestinians ever want peace with Israel

So again:
So APDC you view the IDF and Israel as being in the wrong in this war?

Robert Kennedy Jr does a good job of summarizing this.

Subject: Robert F. Kennedy Jr. on Gaza: "If Mexico Attacked Us And We Built A Fence, Would You Blame Us For Caging In Mexico?" | Video | RealClearPolitics

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Subject: Imshin on X: "Earlier today, IDF dropped notes on Shati "refugee camp" west Gaza City, warning residents to vacate south immediately because IDF was going to strike Hamas terrorists there. In response, the young men of the neighborhood marched in the streets chanting that they wouldn't leave… t.co/WzRIIV1Yf9 / X

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"Come on settlers, we will slaughter you. We are waiting for you in all the cities of the West Bank. What Hitler did to you was a picnic. We will drink your blood and eat your skulls."

Subject: The left's Palestinian cover girl has revealed herself to be a proud, ghoulish Nazi

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Subject: Poll

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Subject: Children as Young as 10 Took Part in Hamas's Oct. 7 Terror Attack, Survivors Say

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Another

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Subject: PHOTOS: Palestinian Women, Children Joined Hamas in Looting in October 7 Attack

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Subject: Palestinians: Are you willing to share the land with the Jews? – YouTube

YouTube link

+1 Au pas de Charge

@35thOVI: That was quite the leap…

Swingfire – not if you have been reading his other posts, in other threads. They have been critical of the IDF. Bill has deleted most of ours in the Civil War Discussion forum. But I am not the only one to ask him.

It started with what many thought was a very cold thread just days after 10/7. Horribly or purposely timed.

You can read what is left of it in the Civil war discussion forum(bill deleted much of it)

"Netanyahu's Israel Would Side With the South

There was a time when Israelis joked, half in hope and half in reservation, that this country was becoming the 51st Of the United States. No longer. Now it feels more like the 12th state – of the Confederacy
A somewhat eerie premonition made shortly before the recent violence broke out. Some of the parallels between the CSA and Israels current regime are interesting.

The rest of the Haaretz article here:"

Hamas not only killed innocent civilians, with full intent, they killed innocent US citizens as well. I have no sympathy for Islamic terrorists nor those in the world who show sympathy for them. The terrorists are a plague on the world.

OK 35thOVI, have to admit I haven't.
Now I have … OK :-)

And to make my stance clear, I am adamantly pro-Israel in this.

I just stumbled across this and thought, "That's odd?" lol

Probably my favorite topic here on TMP "would" be Ultramodern, but it seems most threads, including some very good threads, just devolve into "America's southern border, illegal immigrants and the failings of the current admin."

So I've kind of stopped reading this forum as much as I would otherwise do.

It's like:
Ukraine is winning the war!
"America's southern border, illegal immigrants and the failings of the current admin."

Ukraine is losing the war!
"America's southern border, illegal immigrants and the failings of the current admin."

John Smith's prized racing pigeon is pregnant!
"America's southern border, illegal immigrants and the failings of the current admin."

I can't be the only one to see this?

Swingfire NP. Just explaining why I responded as I did. 🙂

Yeah, I get it :
I just hijacked my own post to go off on a bit of a rant about something completely different unrelated lol

25thOVI: Swingfire – not if you have been reading his other posts, in other threads. They have been critical of the IDF. Bill has deleted most of ours in the Civil War Discussion forum. But I am not the only one to ask him.

My other posts, in other threads? I have only ever refuted one person's claims that the IDF would rather take casualties than kill unarmed civilians. A claim which was triple downed on I think to prove that the IDF was absolute good. I gave some recent examples where the IDF has killed unarmed civilians on multiple occasions. The information is freely available and used to refute the claims by the member. I dont see how the truth is critical (negative?) of the IDF. And I wonder again, do you think mentioning anything which can be deemed unflattering to be a direct attack on something?

That was one thread. What other thread have I discussed the IDF on?

35thOVI: Mistakes happen in city fighting, when the enemy hides among civilians and pose as civilians.

All your comments about who started what and who is acting in what manner may all be true or not but what does it have to do with the actual conduct of the IDF? If you dont think it's a big deal that they shot those Israeli hostages, why would my posting it bother you?

FWIW – the IDF is involved in an urban insurgency. Collateral damage is almost a given. All you can try to do is mitigate it.

Ukraine is winning the war!
"America's southern border, illegal immigrants and the failings of the current admin."

Ukraine is losing the war!
"America's southern border, illegal immigrants and the failings of the current admin."

Yeah I repeat myself a lot …

FWIW – the IDF is involved in an urban insurgency. Collateral damage is almost a given. All you can try to do is mitigate it.

This isnt the standard that was put to me. The claim was that the IDF "takes extra casualties to keep from causing civilian deaths"

I thought that an astounding claim, especially because it appears to have been used to prove that the IDF is unimpeachably "good".

Even the IDF Spokespeople dont make this claim. I dont know of any army that would willingly allow its soldiers to take casualties; at least as an official policy.

In fact, one statement from the IDF themselves reads like thus:

How Does the IDF Minimize Harm to Palestinian Civilians?

The IDF is currently engaged in Operation Pillar of Defense against Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups in the Gaza Strip. As a result of Hamas' strategy of using civilian areas for military purposes, it is inevitable that there will be civilian casualties in Gaza.Nonetheless, the IDF goes to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties and to minimize collateral damage.

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Nothing there about incurring "extra casualties" to avoid killing anyone else. If someone has statements from the IDF that they do this, I'd like to see it.

However, i think it is worth taking a look at whether both the member's utterance is true and to what extent the IDF avoids civilian casualties.

This whole thing does not begin with Oct 7.

I looked at the video surveillance and tried to find the perps that I would say were under the age of 18. I saw one, but there is no telling. Regardless of how these people were dressed they were "soldiers" of Hamas, not civilians. They pulled off a hideous, barbaric assault at great risk to themselves. Not that they care. Insanity. They are criminals. But I would never think of them as civilians. That line gets blurred with Hamas, but none of the Oct 7 offenders were functioning as anything but trained fanatic combatants,, dressed as civilians to pull this off,IMO.

I have said that Israel needs to do their thing and end this ASAP or the tide of public opinion would turn. The NYT today reports that satellite imagery from the first six weeks shows that the IDE dropped hundreds of 2000 bombs on southern Gaza, where they had told Palestinians to go as a safe zone. No doubt Hamas took advantage of this. But it just keeps looking like the IDF was caught napping on Oct 7, and is extracting its own overwhelming revenge on the entire population. I am not saying they are not doing their best under tough conditions, but as times goes on, more goes wrong and so many people have been killed that it becomes a blur.

This looks different from CD. Destroying Hamas must happen, and that means there will be CD. But the IDF needs to get it over with.