"Is 3d printing ruining online stores?" Topic

The issue of 3d printing itself aside, I am noticing a lot of miniature companies offering print files in online stores.

Sometimes these are free, which sounds great.

However is this doing more harm than good?

In particular, I mean when certain figures are only available as files, even though the company sells mostly traditional figures.

This means some figures are out of reach to some people.

I know someone will say you can just get a printing service to print it, perhaps bypass myself and tell these companies instead, if it's that simple.

Are they trying to push people into 3d printing? I guess it's cheaper for them than having to actually make anything.

I think 3D printing has a place for low volume items. If you had a line of Rev War, I could see the line and militia being in plastic or Siocast and like General Washington being a 3D print. I would start with "made to order" and print them in house before selling the files.

I'm not interested in printing stuff myself, although I'm happy to pay someone else to do it. So I guess these 3d print files aren't aimed at people like me. I don't particularly care as I have more stuff than I can ever use, but that is capitalism.

3D printing is still young, and it has its issues with brittleness. For me, 3D printing is a new facet on the gem of this entire, all-encompassing, hobby. It has its place, but injection molded, plastic miniatures, along with spin-molded metal figures, have their place. So, too, do vinyl pre-painted figures, along with every other type of miniature being made for customers.

Eventually, 3D printing may push plastic, vinyl, and metal miniatures into niche status, but I think that is still years away from happening.

I got into Prince August gravity cast molds, in the early 2000's. It was fun and interesting, but I could not get the figures I wanted, nor could I get consistently good castings, even using higher priced Model Metal. It was fun, and I still have a number of those figures within my collection, and I use them as often as I can, but it just wasn't a great fit for me, so I moved on. I am very fond of my experiences with them, however.

I enjoy exploring most facets of this hobby, but not all. I am not interested in learning 3D printing. I am pretty much done buying 3D printed miniatures due to their brittleness, and the ease with which they break! Everyone's experiences varies. Cheers!

Online businesses are the threat to FLGS. 3D printing annoys me for reasons I can not clearly articulate.

Like others, I don't intend to get a 3D printer, at least as long as instructions, permutations, and learning curves remain so problematic and the results so dependent on a moderately high level of technical skill. Also, Kickstarters etc. that offer files that can be printed at this or that percentage to get the scale one wants greatly confuse me. Even if I were having someone else do the actual printing, how many tries in size and content would I need to get it right, and how much effort would be required to clean up the castings?

Whether online or the FLGS, I value clarity in advertising and quality of service, and knowing what I am getting in return for my investment. I don't find it easy to determine what this is yet if I print it myself, though I do follow reviews by people who have purchased things 3D printed elsewhere (e.g., Butler's) and am certainly tempted by them. I'm sure the technique will last and become easier, but it is not for me at present, so local hobby stories aren't losing my coin to 3D anything at the moment.

+1 AD

Myself, I live in a small apartment in a senior-citizens' building, am leery of having melted plastic fumes in my eating and sleeping space. Anyone have experience with this?

Eventually, 3D printing may push plastic, vinyl, and metal miniatures into niche status, but I think that is still years away from happening.

The latest generation of 3D color printers is already cheaper and better than the last generation – from hundreds of thousands of $$ per printer to tens of thousands per printer. The same cost curve that 3D printers followed. I don't think we'll see every home with one, but why can't a savvy FLGS have a 3D print service for their customer community and sell printed miniatures and terrain themselves?

If anything 3D printing is creating a new set of niche vendors.

SBminisguy: I know of a couple that have done that

At lot of the online stores I know sell only 3D-printed products. If I had to guess, at some point 3D printers may become ubiquitous, and few of that generation of miniature wargamers will buy large armies of castings they can print up cheaply. But there will be a market for one-offs--the command figure or sapper you only need one or two of, so it's not worth buying the file.

Or some of the designers may prefer selling the figure to selling the file. But that assumes continued progress. If tech advanced according to expectations, the Mars colony would be two generations old, and I'd be doing math on paper, with the results in a filing cabinet.

I have a resin 3d printer and it has its role in my hobbies. I am able to print niche items, or other oddities that I would normally have to get by mail order. Which still doesn't support my FLGS.

I am stilling buying metal and plastic miniatures in a volume greater than printing.

It would be nice to have a list of 3D print folks that you could contact. I have a couple of STL files I'd love to have printed but no where to get it done. Honestly, as much as I like many of the designs, I have stopped buying them because looking for someplace or someone to print them is just becoming a gigantic pain the the posterior!

I don't think the economics for 3D printing is quite right just yet. Printers continue to improve, but prices remain high. Unless you print quite a few (and then sell some), I'm not sure there's a positive ROI at this point.

pmwalt,
It depends on what you are printing. For example, my son and I are into 28mm scale Halo (video game) skirmish type gaming. There are no official miniatures in that scale – there are some 15mm-ish scale, but as the company that sold them went out of business, prices are astronomical.

We don't have an printer, no place to set up one, etc, and have to rely on others printing them for us. We pay $1 USD each from one guy (not very reliable, lots of breakage and re-dos), $3 USD-5 each from another guy (very high quality, minimal support cleanup). Given that we've got over 100 figures already, the ROI on a mid-range resin printer wouldn't be that bad.

@pmwalt – I printed around 50 vehicles for a 15mm WW2 Finnish army last year. The white metal cost would have been around £3.00 GBP-400, the resin cost was around £15.00 GBP I could have bought a new printer and all the supporting gear and it wwould still have been cheaper

The effect of 3D printing on games companies will be interesting to watch. For example, GW's new 'Warhammer Old World' game. How much will the miniatures be? $10.00 USD for a rank-and-file infantryman is not inconceivable, I'm sure they'll be lovely models. People online are already boasting of their 3D printed armies – at next to zero cost. But if the miniatures don't sell, GW won't support the game. As they clearly state in their annual report, GW are a miniatures company, so not buying their models could be self defeating if you're wanting a well-supported, ongoing game system.

I will put in my .02 here…. I bought a cheap $120 USD Phrozen back June of last year, upgraded to a $350 USD Elegoo in the fall of last year and I have not looked back.

- Learning curve? Yes, but it is not steep. The slicing software is easy to learn, learning the pitfalls of careless printing habits, and learning where to find info on resin that works best with your printer is about it.

- Environment – I use strictly washable resin which has much less odor, and cures in sunlight.

- Cost – I am into it for about $800 USD after buying a couple aftermarket tools to make printing easier. The cost of resin is a factor (but not a show stopper) though…. if you get addicted to printing it is an expensive habit.

I have no regrets. If I have printed less than 2000 figures I would be surprised. So how has this affected my interaction with online stores?

- Has it stopped me from buying metals and plastics? No. In fact I have dumped money into three new directions.

- It has allowed me to go in several directions where there are no metal/plastic counterparts – steampunk armies for example.

- It has allowed me to fill gaps in my Napoleonic, Black Seas, 1/1200 and 1/700 naval and fantasy armies. A lot of the file producers concentrate on the obscure rather than the common, and this is a real bounty.

- there is sooooo much out there in terms of figures available it is often hard to choose

- there is no such thing as out of scale, since you can scale a 3D figure any way you want to. However, one has to be very careful as impulse buying and printing can kill you – or at least add to the unpainted pile.

Your mileage may vary.

One thing to watch though, is a lot of the plastic/metal companies are now pushing into the 3D market. Mantic is now pushing 3D files for their Armada game and the printed ships are every bit as good as the store-bought resin. THIS trend will hurt the online stores for sure.

I sell 3d POD them on my online store but I do have three rules sets and their supplements that I designed and published too. Most of the minis I offer can be used with my rules.

Raynman: I have a couple of STL files I'd love to have printed but no where to get it done.

Check with your local library system. Many of these have 3D printers and can do stuff (usually for a small fee…)

@Raynman

Try Impact Miniatures. I used them before I purchased my printer. They were easy to work with and completed my prints quickly. In my opinion also reasonably priced.

It is interesting that printer folk always neglect to include the cost of a computer into their calculations.

Unless you just stick in a flash drive and hit print, you are going to require a modern computer to run a printer, as far as I am aware.

I also suspect the more modern printers may not run on some computers that ran the earliest printers, although I'm guessing from computer games experience there.

Unless you go second hand, which is a valid option, its at least $500 USD-1000, I assume, added for a new computer.

If you already have one, that's great, but many don't.

I suspect many wargamers don't even own a computer. Stereotypically older wargamers, while stereotypically younger ones are probably having to use their parents, who probably don't need it tied up to a smelly printer in the office.

That said, I'm not old but my computer is. It recently developed graphics card issues. Do you need one of those to run a printer? Dune 2000 still works, thank God, if that helps as a measure.

As the technology improves the cost and difficulty of use will come down. Eventually we'll just download a file and print what we want with little cost and less effort/knowledge than it takes today.

That is the threat. It is the way.

No.

Who prints their own books at home?

Ccgs?

Birthday cards?

Some people do. But that has near 0 impact on the companies making them.

Lots of people have no interest in computer engineering. They may be forced to use one at work, but don't want to go near one in their down time.

Retail therapy is a thing. Buying shiny rattly boxes is a thing.

Home 3d printing is a bubble. Outside is everyone else.

Home 3d printing is a bubble.

People thought that about the Internet at one time too.

H Man doesn't like 3D Printing. His posts reflect that. I'm fine with that. He is greatly outnumbered by the mass that either print their own or buy printed figs. The only figs I have bought this year are older metal figs from tMP marketplace in bulk as it was a great deal and I already owned armies with these figs so they fleshed my stuff out. Some 54mm Old West/Plains and Apache War figs. Some 15mm PSC WWII figs as I was just starting the scale and early in the year 10mm French Indo-China both sides. Now I have files and been printing my own. I recently have been printing for myself 6mm Clone wars (both sides), 54mm Old West, 1/72 Cold War Brits, West Germans, Soviets and Americans including infantry and vehicles and Mantc Armada ships. There is zero chance I could have bought all of this stuff commercially. Just no way. Same with my Battlestar Galactica ground forces, Star Trek Dominion Wars, Clone Wars space combat, Halo 18mm and 32mm ground combat and so many more.

3D printing does have a learning curve. It's nowhere as involved as it was when I started. Give it 5 to 10 years and it'll be be vastly easier to do. I think the mini companiers are ok for at least the next couple of decades. But if they perfect color 3D printing and reduce the price to what they cost now all bets are off. Resin building companies on the other hand are switching to 3D printing or won't last.

Bottom line is you don't want to 3D print great. Buy commercially. It's your hobby and your money.

Thanks

John

3D printing technology is the future. This direction is rapidly developing, as it provides a lot of the advantages already listed above. In addition, there are no borders, no physical goods with expensive and lengthy shipment across half the world, the author (owner) no longer needs to think about the organization and content of production. Moreover, a huge number of models from enthusiastic authors are available for free (although often these models are problematic, but not for an experienced 3D printing operator who can solve most problems). There are already photopolymer resins with very impressive characteristics. And now, albeit quite rarely, it is possible to print from metal. The issue is the relatively high price – but it's just a matter of time.
And yes, most wargamers do not need to master 3D printing and related programs and technologies. I think in the foreseeable future there will be a sufficient number of specialized workshops that will professionally engage in custom 3D printing. And these will simply be specialists in their field who will print anything – toys, models, spare parts for household appliances or cars, furniture fittings, and God knows what else…
You simply find or buy the model you are interested in and send it to the 3D printing workshop nearest to you, and in a day or two you will receive what you need. Or even bring the drawings to the designer in this workshop and in a week you will receive an absolutely unique thing.

And traditional production and trade in miniatures will gradually disappear as unprofitable.

JL, are those properly licensed files?

Again no, on that last point.

Traditional miniatures production isn't going anywhere.

No more than lead based metal did after lead free became a rage.

Again we can learn (if people bother to hear) from home computer paper printing and the microwave oven (if you have either, I currently don't).

Most people simply can't be bothered and still buy things.

Even the internet, as brought up. The current fad is streaming, but DVDs are still sold and TV is still a popular form of advertising, this is still watched by many. I have DVDs and watch TV, I don't stream.

I thought the future was drinking radium tonic (don't look that up, didn't go well). As another example.

If you check out my website through my username you will find I offer printing.

Going back to the title of this post, I'd say it has not "ruined" online shopping for me. It has, however, made it more cumbersome for me as it has added the extra step of seeing whether or not the really cool mini I want to buy is just a file, a file that can be printed by the seller, or a physical miniature. Gratification less instant.

Agreed.

And if they do clarify it as different products, they may be all dumped together, so you have to trawl through a longer list.

"GW's new 'Warhammer Old World' game. How much will the miniatures be? $10.00 USD USD for a rank-and-file infantryman is not inconceivable,"

Well they have/had the Mordhiem skaven up for about 3 dollars au each.

I don't think they have much option what with Mantic having entire armies for 1-150.

Don't forget they will be rereleasing much of it, so possibly just redating existing tools. So they would be basically free for them if that's the case.

I think 3-5 au for most rank and file.

Will GW sell 3d prints or files?

Probably not files at least, as they seem to think they make the world's best minis and a bunch of low res defects floating around would make them look bad.

I don't think they would sell prints either, as its not efficient enough Vs injection. Occasional specialist bits, maybe.

I agree with @Tacitus

In fairness though, resin/metal offered similar issues.

YOU STILL BUY METAL? 3D FDM, near indestructible, light weight, precision well beyopd any metal casting with its dreadful shrinkage, Spear that bend? Models that break when dropped and chip paint.

3D, precision, hell even the turrets don't fall off. Guns don't bend or break if dropped, neither does the paint chipping! Loads of online stores to help the printers and the printer less. How can this be ruining online stores, more and better models? And If you have printer the cost saving, even paying for the printer and file is huge. As for needing a computer, we have one it was never bought for 3D printing its as essential to a household as a Microwave.

Near indestructible? Not with any resin I've seen.

Light weight is nice for transportation but can be inconvenient in play – the figures are more likely to move accidentally.

Intrinsic (dis)advantages aside, a lot of stuff simply doesn't exist as 3D prints yet.

Yeah, don't leave it in a hot car… ;-)

I was not talking crappy resin but proper FDD Extrusion. I have come back from a show we were participating in. I showed a guy a resin IMR2 and an Extruded T809 He could not tell the diffrence. At wargame distances there is no doiffrence. resin vs Extruded except Extruded is as tough as hell.

Never had an issue with plastic moving be that extruded plastic, airfix etc. or my light weight 3D printed prone infantry.

Now Zephyr1 has a point but don't drop metal in a box that is catastrophic so honoures are even and yes I have occationally droped a box, but being platic no issues.

PS don't drop either in hot tea, one will give you metal poisening and the other Might spoil the print. I have yet to drop a model in my tea.

There are not many military vehicles for which free stl files are not available, and the paid for files are often not that expensive. Has anyone actually had difficulty in finding a file for any WW2 tank for example?

Certainly for Moderns AOTRS Shipyards has started publishing its 1/144 models as STL for a relatively low cost. That means lots of stuff at modest prices. Probably a bigger range than others and thanks to US things like engineering vehicles you would never get as castings or injection molds they sell too few. So the 3D prints add to whats available beyond that of the out of date metal stuff.

You are rare indeed if you don't have a computer for other reasons, I have one but class as a Luddite as I don't have a smart phone, mine still has buttons! Computers are probably on balance cheaper than a smart phone and it's call costs. You can call phones cheap on your computer.

"out of date metal stuff."

Chomp, munch, munch…

Metal is still used and new models are made in metal.

Does metal have an expiry date?

Lead disease, maybe?

Metal certainly isn't old fashioned, nor out of fashion. In fact GW are planning on releasing/rereleasing TOW figures in metal. If GW is any guage of things.

Many figure makers only offer metal figures. Others have a mix.

Lead fears had an impact, maybe resin fumes and dust will too?

So H man, what are the gains for figures in metal, they are excessively heavy, anybody who has had to put a Lead multi piece model will know how inaccurate they are. Don't even get me started on the disaster that is flash and lead feed in sections where even gross detail is missing. Minifigs Marder was a classic disaster like that.

Perhaps they make metal figures for the "vintage market". Like vintage cars, cars you drive them occasionally but they are far too uncomfortable, unreliable and unsafe for regular driving ;-).

"but they are far too uncomfortable, unreliable and unsafe for regular driving"

As opposed to modern SUVs that Tip over easily. Or all the recalls for cars that spontaneously combust, or air bags that randomly inflate, or the higher speeds leading to more speed related accidents and higher speed police pursuits.

Incompetent drivers don't help either.

";-)"

I haven't encountered the trouble your having re metal.

Probably depends on the manufacturer?

GW is usually good. Eureka also. Warlord. Others.

If a mould is getting tired you can get coliflower where bits of the mould have broken away.

Flash is usually minimal, I've seen it in plastic figures also.

Mould lines are what they are, plastic, resin also.

Actually it's plastic that suffers most from missing details, as the mould is not flexible. Hair, for example fades to flat and undetailed on the sides. Most textures do this.

The worst I've seen is the GW LOTR rangers (the human ones) they have capes and clothing flapping around everywhere, all the space beneath them is solid plastic, not air. Do you paint it Black? Or like the clothes?

Stretched faces are an issue in plastic too, when not directly front or side on, the facial features turn into weird straight lines.

While metal usually escapes these issues due to flexible moulds, I have seen it. The Mordhiem cultists had axes that had metal at the back merging them to the figure. This was probably deliberate though, to reduce the chance of later coliflower and also to save having to have the weapon as a seperate peice. Still could have been better thought out though.

Rider feet to horses in metal can have excess, if moulded as one.

I wouldn't call these flash though. Flash is usually caused by a gap between mould halves, these are either by design or coliflower from mould deterioration (which is still better than resin mould deterioration, remember).

A lot of people prefer the weight of metal (Weight suggests value also). I hate trying to spray lighter figures especially prints. You either have to stick them down or have perfectly still day. Metal doesn't go anywhere.

As to parts not lining up and having to deal with that, welcome to the hobby. That's what it's all about, actually having to do something. If you want push and fit, try that knock off, Lego. Kids don't complain. No tools or glue required.

";-)"

I've been printing as a side-hustle business for almost two years. Most customers are gamers who don't want the hassle of owning a machine, or just want bulk lots of after-market parts to convert commercial figures.

It's been going well, and printing at scale is no worry at all. I've printed entire DBMM armies for players (you know how big those things are!), and printed 1-off models for someone who needs to finish a base or diorama. Typically it's still models that aren't easily available or are too expensive from the big players, but that's changing.

This said, every customer has a half-life of the time it takes them to release they can eventually do the printing themselves.

A lot of people prefer the weight of metal (Weight suggests value also). I hate trying to spray lighter figures especially prints. You either have to stick them down or have perfectly still day. Metal doesn't go anywhere.

Realty ytou want to heave massive boxes of superheavy metal instead of superlight boxes? Where I( come from heaviy is just cheap Cr*P. ;-)

As for fitting my wife has far to much stuff needing fixing, uneccessary fixeing of toys is just a No No. I want to PLAY. ;-).

"Where I( come from heaviy is just cheap Cr*P. ;-)"

Here I was thinking metal was A heaier, B more expensive, and C more detailed/durible than plastic/resin.

Guess I got it wrong.

";-)"

"As for fitting my wife has far to much stuff needing fixing"

I'm sure she would not approve of that statement.

";-)"

"fixeing of toys is just a No No. I want to PLAY. ;-)."

Then try a toy shop, not a hobby store.

";-)"

Toy shops are for buying toys (not really I print my toys).

Does the place that sells the filament now class as an online shop for war games as that were my kit comes from? In which case online stores are doing really well.;-).

The man cave/club is for playing and on a bad day the dining room table for colouring toys, the worst bit of war gaming to me.;-).

SWMBO disapproves that I have not fixed everything even though the list is infinite and growing. ;-).

PS printer sales shops should also count as war games online stores now, so there must be vastly more war game stores than ever before. Must mean the hobby is growing ;-).

I agree and when you add in the plastic raw material manufacturers and suppliers, and the metal foundries and Mines, and all the hardware stores supplying epoxy and resin, and the people sewing the GW shirts, and the take away supplying fat bloke with food, and Warlords two WHO fans that produce tears, and the poor forign kids gluing flock to blobs of glue one at a time, and the paint tasting outfits, and the GW scalpers, and the ones I hope people will add below, it really becomes the biggest hobby in the world, the world that wargaming built.

I was going to put ";-)" between every word, but you'll just have to imagine it as it will take forever. ";-)"

AH a real bone of contention! GW to me is not part of the hobby, they are a commercial firm who is anti anything not GW so are a separate hobby and NEVER despite their arrogance do they or should be allowed to speak for the Hobby, they are NOT PART of it. Rant over.

PS Long ago we gave up buying even paint from them, very poor value and to my mind not as good as other reputable brands.

I think it's the black hole of wargaming.

But your right, all they do is sell rattly boxes.

If it were cheaper, or paint not a good money spinner, they would be sold pre assembled and painted.

Already they got rid of making your own terrain, non manufactured basing, and anything else that isn't glue model, paint. And of course those are made cumbersome with a bazillion fancy paints you don't use, and associated tat.

About as far from the miniature hobby as you can get without being part of the action figure collecting hobby.

Hasbro/WOTC are wanting to dump physical books for D&D and are also wanting to dump Physical cards for MTG! GW is kind of going the same way, trying to push the Online aspect. Hasbro is also dumping the distribution network for selling all the books them selfs to the distributors as they dont want to loose money to a middleman. Once GW and many others decide to get out of the Manufacturing of mini game, miniatures, ect, just like all the software and music companies realized they have no overhead in just selling their products digitally, printing your own miniatures may be the only market!

3d printing is going to be the future of miniatures. The quality is as good or better as the manufacturers now, the variety of miniatures far exceeds what the physical producers can even dream of making, there is so much available to 3d print and the selection is getting bigger every day, literally!

I like my metal miniatures, they have heft, I often glue my miniatures onto washer instead of resin bases, because they are then magnetic, can stick to magnetic movement trays, and the metal washer makes them a little heavier, and partially protects them.

The quality and price of resin has greatly improved.
Im sure there are still people trying to sell miniatures printed with standard resin, people need to stop buying from them. there are now inexpensive resins that you can print miniatures with the are sufficiently durable now.

If there are reasons you cant own a 3d printer and print at home, find a wargaming friend and have them print for you!

Im not a 10mm Warmaster player, ( 15mm is my deal) but a person could print a friend or even a wargaming enemy a freebie army in 10mm, using STLs from ForestDragon or a similar company for as little as 10 dollars in resin, ya like a full army for that price! Give the army away, but make them paint it!!!

The issue with owning a 3d print is the problem of painting! you can easily print 10 to 100 times faster then you can paint. The mountain of unpainted miniatures will quickly grow on you, way faster then the piles of unpainted lead that plagues people!!