Help support TMP

"Ovation for a Nazi in the Canadian Parliament" Topic

68 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

Please remember that some of our members are children, and act appropriately.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.

Back to the Ultramodern Warfare (2014-present) Message Board

Back to the WWII Discussion Message Board

Action Log

26 Sep 2023 9:19 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Removed from Modern Media boardCrossposted to WWII Discussion boardCrossposted to Ultramodern Warfare (2012-present) board

Areas of Interest

World War Two on the Land

Featured Hobby News Article

Featured Link

Top-Rated Ruleset


Rating: gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star 

Featured Showcase Article

1:300 Scale US Modern Tanks & Mortar Carriers

Twenty-five years? It seems like just yesterday to

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian...

Featured Profile Article

Other Games at Council of Five Nations 2011

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian snapped some photos of games he didn't get a chance to play in at Council of Five Nations.

Current Poll

Featured Book Review

Featured Movie Review

2,517 hits since 25 Sep 2023
©1994-2023 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Pages: 1 2 

Cuprum226 Sep 2023 8:40 p.m. PST




The SS veteran was warmly welcomed in the Canadian Parliament. But for some reason the Canadian Jewish community was outraged, which marked the beginning of a big scandal.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian26 Sep 2023 9:55 p.m. PST

Note that the parliament was not aware of his service in the S.S. grin

Gray Bear26 Sep 2023 10:13 p.m. PST

His introduction to parliament included the fact he fought in WW2 against the Russians on behalf of Ukraine. The only forces fighting the Russians were the Nazis and their eastern front allies. Reasonably intelligent persons, including MPs, knew the actors fighting on the Eastern Front in WW2 and that the Russians were allied with Britain/Canada. Zelensky undoubtedly knew the background of this guy and applauded him like a trained seal.

Cuprum226 Sep 2023 11:05 p.m. PST

Editor in Chief Bill, if this is so, then there is a high probability that next time they will applaud a serial killer… Why not? They are so easy to mislead.
However, I think that if the West has now closed its eyes to the presence of Nazis in Ukraine, then it will be possible to turn a blind eye to them everywhere if they fight with the Russians (for now – with the Russians). Let's remember who always votes at the UN against protest statements about the glorification and veneration of Nazism in Eastern European countries. Take an interest ;-)


You don't want to see the obvious… But someday they will come for you, not the Russians…

mkenny26 Sep 2023 11:09 p.m. PST

He even got a private visit


Darrell B D Day27 Sep 2023 12:02 a.m. PST

At least these things attract comment and mockery – we're not blind to these things. in fact, many of our "leaders" see fascists everywhere:


Arjuna27 Sep 2023 1:13 a.m. PST

This just cries out for a special military operation.

Russia could even free Alaska from imperialism on the way.
It shouldn't be a problem to find some bullied ethnic Russians over there.
Bullied by Nazis, taxes, inferiority complexes, or alcohol addiction.
Should be reason enough.

Meanwhile in Ukraine Andrij and Alina Smolenskyj, Citizens of the Ukraine, Mr.Smolenskyj former soldier of the Ukrainian forces, heavily wounded in defense of his country in 2023.
2019 and today:

But it appears, he still could raise his right arm for the Nazi salute and she is pregnant with his child, that he will never be able to see, so no victory for Russia.
Go on, do it.

backstab27 Sep 2023 1:34 a.m. PST

The war must be getting worse for the Russians especially when the Putin Trolls star pulling the Nazi card..again

GildasFacit Sponsoring Member of TMP27 Sep 2023 3:11 a.m. PST

It gets a lot easier to understand why Ukrainians fought against the USSR in WW2 if you look at the history of exploitation of Ukraine in the years prior to WW2. It is often said that the enemy of my enemy is my friend – by the time some of those Ukranians found out that Germans were as bad as Stalin's mob it was probably too late.
It does tire me a bit when all Germans are labelled 'nazis' whether or not they actually signed up to the party – similarly all Russians were 'commies' during the cold war. Simplistic labels don't help understanding, they just fuel mindless hatred.

Darrell B D Day27 Sep 2023 3:39 a.m. PST

As our American chums say, GildasFacit +1

Unfortunately a nuanced view of most areas of public debate seems to be a thing of the past.


Arjuna27 Sep 2023 3:42 a.m. PST

So, let's see, what happened next.

Canadian Nazi Trainwreck – On Times of Israel

A "clueless" resigned Speaker of the House of Commons of Canada, Trudeau, making a fool of himself (nothing new), a few hundred clueless politicians in turmoil (nothing new), a member of the SS found "unexpectedly" after decades of having nothing to hide (nothing new), the Poles not having noticed him before (nothing new), a lot of pissed Jews, because nobody really cares (nothing new), the Russians equipping their starving diversion and distraction clowns with smoke grenades (nothing new).
Which doesn't make it any easier for the Jews.

Don't you think, Rota looks in real life a bit like a puppet character out of Spitting Image?
I mean, look at that fake grin and that skinny neck.


35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2023 5:12 a.m. PST

If he had just been an ex-Nazi Trucker and honked his horn twice, he would never would have fooled them. 😉

Subject: Woke Canadian MP claims Freedom Convoy's 'Honk Honk' catchphrase is a secret code for HEIL HITLER


Cuprum227 Sep 2023 5:24 a.m. PST



Arjuna, this boy is Vanya Voronov. At the end of 2014, he was maimed in the courtyard of his five-story building in Donetsk by a Ukrainian artillery shell fired into the city. He lost both legs, an arm and his sight. But he's still Russian. And for eight years this was a sufficient reason for the Ukrainian Nazis to continue shelling cities that did not want to come under their power. All that the residents of these cities demanded was a federal structure of Ukraine and consideration of their interests, trampled upon by the "revolutionaries."

backstab, Russian trolls are so insidious that they brought a Nazi into the Canadian parliament. Damn it – they are simply omnipotent!

GildasFacit, and also the Ukrainian Nazis successfully fought against the Jews and Poles. Until they finally figured out that the Bolsheviks and German Nazis were to blame for this too. I think thousands of murdered Jews and Poles (not to mention Russians, Belarusians and Ukrainians) will not really agree with you.

Well, I see that many in the local community would be happy to join in the applause in the Canadian Parliament.

Cuprum227 Sep 2023 5:37 a.m. PST

GildasFacit, this is especially for you. Several photos of the first Jewish pogrom in Lviv, organized by Ukrainian nationalists on July 1, 1941 (the first week of the war in Russia). Thousands of Jews killed. Enjoy fighting against Russians and Bolsheviks:


More photos here:


It is quite possible that somewhere among the indignant Ukrainians is the current hero of the Canadian parliament.

And here is another photo – here the Poles in Volyn have already been exterminated with inhuman cruelty by Bandera's followers (the first photos are the same Lviv pogrom). I won't post the photos openly here – they are terrible. If you want to see it and you have strong nerves, look at the link:


This Oberststurmfόhrer was a nice guy, wasn't he? Just like his current followers. Glory to Ukraine? After all, this is the chant of precisely those killers who did everything in the above photos. Now this is the official greeting of the Ukrainian army.

shadoe0127 Sep 2023 5:52 a.m. PST

Yes, it's a scandal, an embarrassment, but it's also a sloppy mistake on the part of the Speaker of the House, who despite his photograph was respected by all political parties. Some people have genuine smiles like that and many also have skinny necks. So be it.

I would not expect even average Canadians to understand how Parliament works – never mind non-Canadians; and, regretfully we live in an age when news media, of all sorts, don't practice journalism – in terms of determining the facts and informing readers. It is the way it is, but just so readers here know:

The Speaker of the House is elected at the beginning of each parliament by all members of the House by secret ballot. The Speaker runs the House staff – numbering about 2,000 and with the Speaker of the Senate has oversight of the Parliamentary Security Services, which has sole jurisdiction within the parliamentary buildings. The RCMP has jurisdiction on the parliament grounds but not inside the building. The Ottawa police have jurisdiction in the city but only outside parliament and the parliamentary grounds. Both speakers are independent of the government and do not report to the Prime Minister's Office.

Also, as it's relevant here the Speaker has the sole privilege of recognizing people who might be in the gallery. As a result member of the House trust the Speaker, which includes his staff, to have done due diligence including vetting of invitees. Someone didn't do their job – whether it was the Speaker of someone on his staff doesn't matter. The Speaker is accountable and has betrayed the House's trust. Resignation was the proper thing to do.

While it's not Prime Minister's fault, I do think he should offer an apology since it was not just an embarrassment for the Speaker but for the House, the government and the country, but he's not seeking my advice. LoL

FYI – here's a short discussion by members of the three main political parties plus a journalist from the Toronto Star – a centre-left newspaper.

YouTube link

And, if you're really bored here's information on the House Speaker and the Parliamentary Protective Services.



In summary, it's fair enough to point out errors when, for example, people make statements about Russia when they don't really have much knowledge about the place, but, also in fairness, they should at least be aware that a statement like, "The SS veteran was warmly welcomed in the Canadian Parliament", while technically correct, implies foreknowledge of the individual's past by Parliament.

Now you probably know more about Canada's parliament than a good number of Canadians. In that regard I agree with any statement about people not knowing their history.

However, except in places perhaps like the Russian news media, this story will be forgotten by the end of next week.

Personal logo jsmcc91 Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2023 5:57 a.m. PST

Cuprum, once again you prove you are the mouth of Sauron. Be like Putin and push the Nazi rhetoric that doesn't exist in any number to justify the illegal invasion of a sovereign country. Goes back to 2014.

The people involved admitted they never looked at this guys background and just assumed because he fought against the Russians in WWII. It has nothing to do with the current situation in Ukraine brought by the Russian terroristic state. Shame on the people who brought the guy to parliament not doing a background check. At least the person who brought him resigned.

The only outcome is another loss of generations of Russians dead. Until the Russian people stand up to Putin, more will die for no reason.

shadoe0127 Sep 2023 6:07 a.m. PST


"…assumed because he fought against the Russians in WWII."

This is the shameful part – that people's knowledge of history is so poor as to not realize that the Soviet Union was an Ally of Canada in WWII. However, I was born after WWII and I'm now retired, and I expect the average parliamentary staffer is probably 30 years old plus/minus a few years and for whom even Desert Shield/Desert Storm is ancient history. The Speaker should have picked that up on that when reviewing his notes. He's not that young – although younger than me. LoL

Clearly, more wargamers need to be hired on political staffs.

ETA: I suppose Hollywood can be blamed for people thinking that WWII was fought and won solely by the USA. A pity as there have been some excellent movies about Soviet involvement.

Cuprum227 Sep 2023 6:09 a.m. PST

I'm tired of repeating the same thing for the hundredth time. If the West, at the official level, had not openly supported the anti-government coup in Kyiv in 2014, Crimea would have remained Ukrainian. Not to mention the fact that hundreds of thousands of people would still be alive. Yanukovych had only a year left before the elections… He would have simply been re-elected, even perhaps the same Poroshenko would have been elected. And we would all live in a completely different world now.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2023 6:11 a.m. PST

"Current hero" he is obviously not. This embarrassing mistake by the Canadian Parliment is now in the open and getting the attention it deserves. It is marked by ignorance and lack of awareness, but it was never Trudeau's intent to celebrate a Nazi soldier. He should have known better. How many world leaders in the past few years can we also say this about?

This PR disaster still pales in comparison to the Russian invasion and brutal war on civilians Putin is running. The invasion was a far more ignorant act than the Canadian politicians' mistake. The crime of aggression is committed by autocratic leaders who are dictators, marked by disregard for human life. Freedom and sovereignty are still at stake for everyone.

The Russians are happy enough for the West to lose its perspective and be distracted for a few days. The American right can beat up on Trudeau. We are appalled by this mistake, but it's over.

And the war goes on…

nickinsomerset27 Sep 2023 6:16 a.m. PST

"I'm tired of repeating the same thing for the hundredth time. If the West, at the official level, had not openly supported the anti-government coup in Kyiv in 2014"

I am tired of repeating it for the hundredth time, "If the Soviets, at the official level, had not rigged the elections and put their own man in charge, there never would have been an anti-government coup.

There fixed it for you,

Tally Ho!

mkenny27 Sep 2023 6:24 a.m. PST

And the war goes on…

Indeed it does and after 100 days the Ukrainians have advanced 5 miles at Robotyne.

shadoe0127 Sep 2023 6:42 a.m. PST

One should know that any statement about what would or wouldn't have happened if something in the past was different. A statement like, "If the West, at the official level, had not openly supported the anti-government coup in Kyiv in 2014, Crimea would have remained Ukrainian", is speculative. It assumes no agency on the part of Russia or Ukraine. Only the "West" has agency – all happens as a result of "Western" actions or inactions.

One might also ask what would have happened if Yanukovych had stayed in Ukraine and, perhaps, have asked for Russian help in suppressing an insurrection. Maybe Ukraine would be similar to Belarus. Maybe there would have been a messy civil war with "hundreds of thousands" of dead anyway.

Surely speculation of how history might have unfolded differently if some past event happened or not is the stuff for movies involving the consequences of time travel. Hard to make declarative statements about what might have been. However, it does feed into the "big lies" governments tell their citizens, whether the government believes its own "big lies" or not, when trying to get their people to kill their fellow human beings. Yes, many countries are guilty of that – the "domino theory" with respect to Vietnam is but one example. It didn't happen – perhaps not a "lie" as intentional untruth, but an untruth in that it was an unproven theory used to support a desired political course of action.

Garand27 Sep 2023 6:56 a.m. PST

This is really grasping at straws. Canada makes a PR mistake, Russians grasp at this as PROOF of the duplicity of the "West!" And when that argument goes nowhere, trots out the claim that all of this was the "West's" fault because of supporting the Maidan Revolution. Meanwhile Russia hasn't known a truly democratic moment in it's entire history.

In 1944 as Soviet forces were advancing into Ukraine, the Waffen SS set aside enough weapons & equipment to form a single division of Ukrainian ethnic troops, to resist. They needed around 15K troops. They got over 45K in volunteers. This wasn't because of rampant Nazism in Ukraine (after 3 years of German occupation, & treatment as Slavic sub-humans), but because they HATED the Russians more than the Germans. This is telling, & something necessary to understand Ukrainian mentality, IMHO.

I recently picked up a regular in my ESL classes from Lviv. He's a lawyer so rather intelligent. I may ask him about this event.



Personal logo McKinstry Supporting Member of TMP Fezian27 Sep 2023 7:30 a.m. PST

Russia can give back the stolen lands of Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, Zaporizhia(sp)and Crimea and the war ends tomorrow.

Straw Plaiter Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2023 7:46 a.m. PST

Typical pathetic Russian deflection because of the UN report –
"Russian soldiers raped and committed sexual violence against women of ages ranging from 19 to 83 years" in occupied parts of Kherson province, he said.

From here,The%20U.N.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2023 8:08 a.m. PST

Someone in Canada's gov't didn't do their due diligence/homework. Or just didn't know history or care. They should be punished. They really *bleeped*ed up

Desperate, grasping at straws propagandist(s) posting shocking photos, etc., etc., would try to tie-in this with the West supporting Nazis … Maybe should post photos of what the Russians did to German women in Berlin ? Very few hands are clean … But that type of propaganda is well known anyway.

We here generally know our history. Most others in the US, Canada, etc. don't. Especially with the progressives rewriting some of it.

Almost what they go by is what they see in the movies/TV. If they even watch war movies or anything about history. What they see in most cases is wrong.

Again, there is no way to excuse the imperialistic fascist invasion of the Ukraine. Even using the excuse, it was to hunt down Nazis. Again, propaganda used to cover Putin's real reason to invade a sovereign nation.

And again, I'm sure I speak for most here … In no way do we support Nazis then or now, in any way shape or form. We don't support Communism either … no matter what some try to call it.

BTW – my Father a US Army Infantry SGT with the 90ID in WWII France fought the Germans/Nazis. And like so many others he was WIA'd. Was deaf in one ear for the rest of his life.

Many North Americans were KIA'd, WIA'd, POW/MIA fighting the Nazis. They all paid their dues … just like all the Allies, including the Russians, who went to war to fight the Axis.

troopwo Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2023 8:14 a.m. PST

An absolute embarrassment for Canadians.

For the speaker to have him as an invited guest, no less for the prime minister to include him in a private audience with a foreign leader would have meant that the person was vetted by the PMO, the office of the prime minister and the protocol office both for public background as well as for security checks. This means that either the vetting and background checks were NOT done,,, or,,, they were done and the speaker and prime minister ignored them. I would lay odds on they ignored the report of the background checks.

To have parliament applaud a nazi on the highest holy day of judaism.

It comes on the very hot heels of accusing the Indian government of murdering people in Canada. An accusation that is backed by no evidence.

A poor track record is about the politest thing you can say about the current government.

Arjuna27 Sep 2023 8:31 a.m. PST


It is heartwarming and very farsighted that the Russian Federation is giving Vanya a few tens of thousands more war invalids on both sides as playmates, or putting them in wheelchairs, for that matter, so they can share his fate and feel for him.
He can be proud of the fact that the Russian Federation is not too shy to avenge citizens of neighboring countries who have suffered and happen to be ethnic Russians with the now probably hundredfold blood toll, no matter whose blood.

But my sociopathic callousness to that poor sod Vanya aside, and I'm a highly functional sociopath at that, what can be done to end economic support for artificial limb manufacturers by adding Andrijs and Alexanders, other than the unconditional surrender of Ukraine preferably followed by a purge to extinguish Ukrainian national aspirations forever, the desirable collapse of the West, and the fantasized creation of a Greater Russian Empire within the borders of the former Soviet Union?

Don't lose a leg over it.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian27 Sep 2023 8:38 a.m. PST

The house speaker has resigned.

Fox News: link

Grattan54 Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2023 9:33 a.m. PST

Amazing how the Russians keep running into Nazi boogeymen every time they invade someone. They said that Nazi's had taken over Hungary during the Hungarian Revolution in the 1950s so had to invade. Then Nazis took over Ukraine and Russia invaded.

You can show a hundred pictures of wounded Russian children it will not change the fact that Russia started this war. Anyone who dies or is wounded or maimed in this conflict are all the fault of Russia. All this is on Putin and no one else.

GildasFacit Sponsoring Member of TMP27 Sep 2023 9:46 a.m. PST

I would probably try a reasoned argument with most participants on this forum but there would obviously be no point in doing that with you. You are convinced that the current state of affairs is somebody else's fault entirely, no matter what the evidence otherwise. The extreme violence of the reaction is justified in your eyes because of the imagined threat that you have convinced yourself exists. Logic is pointless, only emotion and dogma are true.

Surprising though it may seem to you this is exactly the same dogma put out by both the National Socialists and the Bolsheviks (among others) – read history instead of propaganda and you would realise that for yourself.

Dave Jackson Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2023 10:00 a.m. PST

Well said shadoe01

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2023 10:35 a.m. PST

It's barely possible for Americans to avoid blamer culture over the smallest things anymore. We are easily led in this. But in the bigger picture, this is no more than an unwitting PR disaster, already over. Nobody in Canada meant to praise a Nazi.

Americans are hardly in a position to berate other leaders for not knowing their history after the last few years.

This is in no way a defense of Trudeau. He made a bad mistake. But no artillery shells are falling on Ottawa. Back to the actual war….

79thPA Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2023 10:39 a.m. PST

Gray Bear,

Without getting into politics, I don't know how things are in Canada, but here in the US most people couldn't tell you which countries fought for the Allies or the Axis during WWII.

Frederick Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2023 10:55 a.m. PST

Good point – the statement "fought against the Russians in World War II" should have triggered a thought as to how this happened – but further to 79th PA's point, I can recall talking to No 2 son's buddies when they were in high school and they were amazed to hear that Russia and Canada/US/UK were on the same side in WWII

williamb27 Sep 2023 11:23 a.m. PST

Cuprum2 – How many times do you have to be told that the cross on the tank is not a NAZI symbol?


These are NAZI symbols.

PDF link

Why don't you do something about Russia's NAZIs


GildasFacit Sponsoring Member of TMP27 Sep 2023 12:01 p.m. PST

I'd agree Phillius.

Started badly & got worse.

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2023 1:00 p.m. PST

There is no country that can stand up to analysis of its past and that surely includes any of the more Western parts of the former USSR. Even Poland was an ally, but hardly a model of democracy prewar. Ukraine (and not just Ukraine) saw a chance for liberation from the USSR and many citizens made a pact with the devil, failing to realise that their new occupiers despised them, almost as much as the minorities that they themselves persecuted in their own land.

Finland might be an exception from the list, but it was a shameful time for all. Go west and the history is equally "challenging" and can still be. There were recently some extreme right wing groups in Ukraine, but a minority. Imagine that there is a Nazi movement in Israel….seriously, however small.

But yes, this discussion should probably be deleted. It adds nothing to the press comments about the incompetence that allowed this to happen in the first place. How ignorant of history to you have to be? (I know the answer, when we read of public surveys of the simplest questions of historical facts)

Ned Ludd27 Sep 2023 1:12 p.m. PST

This whole event in the canadian parliament is a huge metaphor for the us and Europe's approach to the conflict in ukrain. They want us to blindly support and clap like demented seals for the lies and double standards they present before us. The emperor's new clothes spring to mind. What half literate person would not think to ask what was he doing fighting the russians in 1942? It is pathetic, they are pathetic to claim they could not know. The ukrain has broken through yet another russian line, that is at least ten, they must be well on the way to moscow by now. Im clapping like a demented seal at every pathetic propaganda piece they give me. 1984 is getting very real,

"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past

"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength"

Yes delete the discussion the proles could see it and start thinking for them selves, then where would we be?

nickinsomerset27 Sep 2023 1:17 p.m. PST

"Im clapping like a demented seal at every pathetic propaganda piece they give me"

Then in another post you quoted a couple of non entities, declaring how the Ukraine was doomed, as if straight from Putins little diary. Showing your true colours,

Tally Ho!

Zinkala27 Sep 2023 7:50 p.m. PST

79th PA, sadly your opinion holds true for too many in Canada as well. Our education system has been getting worse over the years and currently seems to be focused on emotions and blame instead of facts and critical thinking.

This incident is a huge embarrassment and has rightly upset a lot of people. I don't know what our government thought they would gain by presenting him but claiming that they didn't know who he was and his history is BS. Our deputy Prime Minister's grandfather was a Nazi propagandist during WW2. Her cousin who's Grandfather also served in the 14th SS with Hunka is president of the Ukranian Canadian Congress. Speaker Rota is also closely connected to the UCC as well as Hunka and his family. I don't know much about the UCC but find some of the things I'm learning about them disturbing. There were at least 2 people high up in Trudeau's cabinet who knew him personally for years. He wasn't invited by accident.

I do know a fair bit about the history of that area and it is a tangled mess. I can understand why people would fight against the Soviet Union. But take a quick look into Bandera and the 14th SS. It's claimed that they were so brutal it even shocked the Gestapo. They committed a large amount of atrocities against everyone in the region, ukranians, poles, belorussians, slovaks and others. Hunka was a volunteer who claimed that it was the best time of his life in a newspaper article years ago. To use him as a shining example of what we need now just because he also killed russians is disgusting.

I miss when my country used to be famous for it's peace keeping instead of constantly trying to stir up anger and hatred everywhere. Never had a very good opinion of politicians in general but our current crop never cease to amaze me with their ignorance, arrogance and outright stupidity.

Gray Bear27 Sep 2023 8:28 p.m. PST

Well said Zinkala!

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2023 9:10 p.m. PST

Canadian Prime Minister Trudeau Apologizes On Behalf Of Canada's Parliament After A Nazi Veteran Was Praised By Parliamentarians At Zelenskyy Event Last Week


Canada's Speaker Resigns After Honoring Nazi Now-Wanted For Extradition By Poland


In this way… it becomes clear what should be done in a serious and democratic country when one makes a mistake… a true lesson for those non-democratic countries where murder, rape, stealing and everything bad is NEVER considered as a mistake… and it doesn't even occur to anyone to ask for forgiveness. They have NEVER committed the most despicable horror… proud of belonging to the West…


Ned Ludd27 Sep 2023 9:55 p.m. PST

"In this way… it becomes clear what should be done in a serious and democratic country when one makes a mistake… a true lesson for those non-democratic countries where murder, rape, stealing and everything bad is NEVER considered as a mistake… and it doesn't even occur to anyone to ask for forgiveness. They have NEVER committed the most despicable horror… proud of belonging to the West"

YouTube link

Murvihill28 Sep 2023 4:18 a.m. PST

This does not belong in the WW2 forum.

shadoe0128 Sep 2023 6:13 a.m. PST

@Murvihill, I just noticed that this thread was cross-posted to the WWII forum. You have a very valid point. I'd argue that this has also somewhat strayed away from the Ultramodern Warfare forum in that I see domestic political talking points surfacing.

However, from an Ultramodern Warfare perspective, information operations are a key element of warfare and, in particular, Hybrid Warfare, which arguably the "West" and Russia are now engaged. So I would support deleting this from the WWII forum but keeping it on the Ultramodern one.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP28 Sep 2023 6:53 a.m. PST

"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past

"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength"

I thought "1984" was prophetic, it was excellent … And it appears to be more and more representative of many nations with mine leading the way …

However, IMO is does not apply to what Putin & Russia is doing by invading the Ukraine and the war crimes that follow …

BenFromBrooklyn28 Sep 2023 7:39 a.m. PST

Nazis are people who do Nazi things.

Like hold fake referendums to justify their conquest of territory.

Anschluss, Luhansk, wherever. Nazi does Nazi. Different words, different symbols does not hide the fact that the actions and motives are identical.

shadoe0128 Sep 2023 8:41 a.m. PST

A discussion on information operations and how one can determine what's true, what's not true and what's uncertain in light of the information chaos and overload of the modern world would be interesting but it would deserve its own thread.

One relevant issue here is that with a degree of hybrid warfare going on – and domestic citizenry being the targets of opposing information operations – every public forum is a potential information "battleground" whether intentionally (info ops people) or unintentionally (re-broadcasting).

On the topic for this thread I think the following two videos say enough:

1) the BBC series – Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister. As someone who's been in the civil service and been at interdepartmental meetings, it very much does work this way in a Westminster form of government with the most senior bureaucrats being professional, career civil servants:

YouTube link

2) I'm sure there's some overlap with other forms of government – in particular, the jealousy with which departments seek to control information, protect their mandates and increase their resources. This is a German language film on the 1942 Wannsee Conference. It's far better than its English language equivalent. Ignoring the topic, which in this case is the "final solution", the interactions of the participants could be any interdepartmental meeting I attended where participants sparred over information, resources and mandates. It's well worth watching as it shows how the face of evil in the world can so often be banal.

YouTube link

Final comments on bureaucracies:

The economist, Thomas Sowell, who was a Marxist as a young man but changed his mind after a year in government. He realized that government couldn't do the things expected of it.

The economist, Milton Friedman, "I say thank God for government waste. If government is doing bad things, it's only the waste that prevents the harm from being greater."

An economist I worked with…"In a Westminster system, the bureaucracy is optimally fragmented to ensure amateur oversight of professional departments". I took me a minute to think on that one.

So, never discount the general ineptitude of bureaucracies (perhaps designed to be that way to a degree) for why something happened, and like Friedman, thank God for bureaucratic inefficiencies as it might have been worse.

cmdr kevin28 Sep 2023 10:57 a.m. PST

Maybe perhaps the world is not so black and white. I think he was being honored for his fight in the defense of Ukraine, not for being a Nazi. Perhaps he is a hero, perhaps he is a Nazi, maybe both or neither. All that is known is he fought in a SS brigade during WW2.

Pages: 1 2