"3 elite Russian brigades ‘crushed’ in east" Topic

…The Russian units in question were the 72nd Motor Rifle Brigade as well as the 31st and 83rd Air Assault Brigades…

Aljazeera: link

Destroyed? Will we soon see photos of abandoned positions, mountains of corpses and burned and captured equipment? I'm eagerly awaiting proof.
Well, since the positions have been broken through, we will soon see Ukrainian troops entering the breakthrough, pursuing the retreating enemy.

Although, wait… A couple of weeks ago I already read that the strongest first "Surovikin line" had been broken and Ukrainian troops were already marching on Tokmak. And How? How close did they get to Tokmak in two weeks?

By the way, just near Bakhmut the Russians do not have powerful fortifications, since these territories were taken along with the capture of Bakhmut and there was simply no time to build them. Because of this, here the line of long-term fortifications runs at a considerable distance in the rear.

"Although, wait…" Last year Adolf Putin told us it was a 3 day special operation, victory would be quick next stop Poland!

Tally Ho!

Although wait….a couple of thousand dead Russians soldiers is the official line but now we know there's 230,000 dead.

Will we soon see photos of abandoned positions, mountains of corpses and burned and captured equipment?

Actually, yes. Already available.

Straw Plaiter, perhaps. But for now, general mobilization was introduced precisely in Ukraine. It is Ukraine that demands European countries to return men of military age to it. It was Ukraine that obliged women of 14 professions to register for mandatory military registration. And it is Ukraine that conscripts sick people into the army who were previously declared unfit for service.
And in Russia there was only one limited mobilization a year ago.
What thoughts do these facts not suggest? ;-)

Editor in Chief Bill, haven't seen these epic pictures yet. Where can I look?

Cuprum, you know where you can shove your Russian propaganda. You continue to spew rhetoric on how great you Russians are for attacking a sovereign country, raping, pillaging and killing civilians. Even stealing Ukranian children. The Ukrainian people are fighting for their very existence. They are going to include people of different ages and normal physical deferment. I hope they kill each abd every one of the Russians in their country. It all will end when the borders go back to the pre-russiam terroristic incasuon. Including Crimea. I have friends over there. I know what your great orcs are doing to the people.

"And it is Ukraine that conscripts sick people into the army who were previously declared unfit for service."

And whose fault is all this, here's a clue not the Ukraine,

Tally Ho!

link

Drar your own conclusions. Russian vehicles knocked out "en masse".

Straw Plaiter, perhaps. But for now, general mobilization was introduced precisely in Ukraine. It is Ukraine that demands European countries to return men of military age to it. It was Ukraine that obliged women of 14 professions to register for mandatory military registration. And it is Ukraine that conscripts sick people into the army who were previously declared unfit for service.
And in Russia there was only one limited mobilization a year ago.
What thoughts do these facts not suggest? ;-)

It suggests that Russia outnumbers Ukraine by 3.5 to one in population and that you have over 400,000 troops in occupied Ukraine. The first mobilisation has never stopped as you know, especially amongst migrants and minorities. The second wave is coming once Putler secures his 95% majority in the elections and the attempted genocide will continue.

Jsmcc91
You said it right, but far more charitably than I was thinking.

Cuprum, you know where you can shove your Russian propaganda.

Well, I appreciate his Russian propaganda to balance out the Western Propaganda, letting me see a more accurate picture falling somewhere in between.

I don't mind his posts either. I expect him to advocate for his country. He doesn't have an inside track to the Kremlin; he is telling us what he is being told, and the collective we is telling him what we are being told. I certainly do not support the Russian invasion, but I think it is interesting and important to hear what is coming from a Russian citizen.

I'd say good news … even if none of us were there …

But yes, Cuprum is going to defend his Motherland, the same way I defend the USA. He may only be getting what he is told by the Putin, etc. gov't …

Parroting Putin's propaganda is NOT helping his "Motherland". It is helping only the gang of fascists who control it. Russian patriots are the ones standing against Putin.
The ones jailed for saying "No War".
They are the best of Russia, at least, the best of Russia that is still in Russia.

But aren't we also at risk of parroting *our* governments' propaganda? We have to be really clear of the stakes here -- the end of life as we know it in a spate of mushrooms clouds. We've never been engaged as directly with Russian military forces as we have right now -- US and NATO advisors and specialist troops are in direct combat right now with Russia, despite any protestations. The last time this happened was the Vietnam War where the USSR and US both pretended that most North Vietnamese fighter jets were not being piloted by Soviet pilots.

So the stakes are high. There's also a LOT of $$$ being flung around with very little oversight. The US alone is up to something like $150 USD Billion to $200 USD Billion. We know it's not all going to aid Ukraine, we know there's fraud -- and the Clinton Foundation jumping for a piece of the action is telling.

Every $$$ that doesn't get spent on munitions, gear and training for the Ukrainian military and for direct support of Ukrainian civil systems is $$$ NOT spent on defeating Russia's invasion – and $$$ we can't spend on say, the Homeless, or fighting the Drug Cartels, or Border Security.

And that's what is so crazy -- I have never -- *never* -- seen a major war like this where there *was no peace plan.* There is none! There is no MoveOn protest movement, no Stop the War movement, and the Establishment political system in the West is in lock step on escalation, more fighting, more $$$$ spent, and on some wishful thinking about being able to steer the outcome the way the wat to. And to justify that they resort to the crudest propaganda and escalatory talk.

As a smarter man than I once said

My favorite Twain quote. It is still accurate almost 160+years later !

Yes, granted there is a middle on the information. I however, draw the line at genocide and stealing children.

Pretending that the truth is in the exact middle of the two positions just rewards the side with the most extreme propaganda.
The truth in the middle fallacy is just another game that is being played.

Martyn K- that is very erudite and shrewd comment. 'Truth in the middle' is an especially dangerous fallacy.

The current russian regime and its bots, trolls and shills is always keen on spreading this fallacy. In the West, it only gets any traction amongst the bots, trolls and shills of the loony extreme left and the loony extreme right, and those people who live in their parents' basements (who can exhibit both tendencies simultaneously).

Bots, trolls and shills can claim their rouble (probably US Dollar actually) from the regime by showing that a few basement dwellers are humming along to their tune. But I'd say the regime is making a poor investment of foreign currency.

"What thoughts do these facts not suggest? ;-)"

My thought is every man, woman, and children ( Those not stolen by Putang ) will fight to the last.

My other thought is Russia will turn from a second rate country to a third rate that can only say they have the largest stock pile of nuclear weapons in the world.

BTW this is a very interesting link to a guy from Austria doesn't always get it right (and admits that) but is an authority on air warfare and apparently well connected on both sides re land and sea warfare. He is definitely pro-Ukrainian but criticises both sides strongly- see his archive criticism on how the defence of Soledar was conducted- echoing frustration he was getting from some Ukrainian officers.

He is also suggesting that the three Russian Brigades have indeed become combat-ineffective in the last few days- worth a read IMHO.

Also worth a read are also some analytical pieces in the last week about how the Ukrainians might have have mastered russian air defences in Kherson/Crimea as a preliminary act to attacking and wrecking the minsk and rostov in drydock.

If it's true, most Western air forces even the USAF might be hard pressed to carry out such a finely balanced operation.

link

Pretending that the truth is in the exact middle of the two positions just rewards the side with the most extreme propaganda.

They truth is the first casualty in war.

The Russians are neither as evil and incompetent as Western media portray them to be, nor are the Ukrainians as noble and indomitable as Western Media would have them be. And not every Russian unit that's broken or retreats can be "Elite" can they? I never see a headline that reads "3 meh-quality Russian conscript Battalions were forced to retreat."

The cause of the War is clear, the path out is also clear *if you want peace.*

Putin saw Biden's fumbles and felt the US and West were weak, and that he could get away with a land grab to recreate part of Russia's defense buffer zone. The US under Biden did not give off solid signals to deter Russia, or have your forgotten when Biden said the US won't react to a "minor" Russian invasion, and then offered Zelensky, want a ride out (which they now pretend they never did).

So now we're in it. And our fearless leaders have turned what should have been a short border war followed by a peace deal into an existential crisis for Putin. Why the hell would we back him into a corner? Barring the hand of God he's not going away, we're not going to topple him, and we're not going to march troops to Moscow. So what the hell is the point of this war??

Russia is defanged. I don't care what propaganda on whatever side, Russia has zero global power projection and is breaking its military in Ukraine and we've stressed the carp out of its economy. Fine. We did that. Now what?

We also have pushed Russia into an alliance with China. Something we had tried to avoid doing for the ENTIRE COLD WAR. And in 2 short years the geniuses on Capitol Hill have done what the best efforts of the Chinese failed to do for generations. Fine. We did that. Now what?

We're being bull3hitted from both sides. Both sides are using the crudest propaganda imaginable to paint the other as irredeemably evil, foul and brutal, and incompetent. And we've done shitty stuff already -- like overtly blow up the Nordstream Pipeline and cause an ecologic catastrophe of the kind the environmentalists usually freak out about…except this time. Where's Green Peace? LOL!

So what's your end game? What's your goal, what does "winning" look like? Don't tell me "total victory" or "when Putin is tried for war crimes." Grow up, not going to happen.

russia and china were able to put their (genuine) differences to one side enough to jointly plough massive amounts of military aid directly devoted to killing young Americans in Vietnam.

china's current mealy-mouthed obfuscation on russian aggression against Ukraine is nothing new, it's just historical reality reasserting itself. russia and china have plenty of form for that and it's completely naïve to think otherwise. Neither is going to side with the US and its allies against the other, or even remain really neutral. At the end of the day, both countries are anti-western dictatorships, and we can't expect any more from either of them than that.

This is US foreign policy realities 101. Even British people understand that.

"And our fearless leaders have turned what should have been a short border war followed by a peace deal into an existential crisis for Putin. Why the hell would we back him into a corner"

You are very naive to believe that Adolf Putin was going to stop at anything less than the conquering of the Ukraine, in 2012 he said that the large european territory on which Russia, Ukraine and Belarus are located is our common spiritual and morale space.

Tally Ho!

As they say if the Ukraine surrenders, there will be no more Ukraine, if Russia leaves the Ukraine there will be peace.

Typically "short border wars" don't involve air mobile ops on the outskirts of the opposition's capital or deep driving thrusts to encircle it once the air mobile operation fails. That's more of a regime change move. Perhaps it would have been short had it succeeded. Seems some would have preferred that option.

This war was never a "short border war," not since Crimea, not since ever. I lived in Ecuador. If you want to see what a short border war is, read up on the Paquisha War & the Cenepa War.

The question was asked, what is this war for? The answer is clear: to maintain the sovereignty & territorial integrity of Ukraine. The peace plan is to kick Russia out of Ukraine, and maintain it's sovereignty & territorial integrity.

No one was going to, or should have, made terms with Hitler. So why should we do it now with Putin, just so we can be a little more comfortable, and get cheaper gas…

Damon.

"Pretending that the truth is in the exact middle of the two positions just rewards the side with the most extreme propaganda.
The truth in the middle fallacy is just another game that is being played."

I don't remember now where I heard this, but:

"The best propaganda is true"; don't lie, speak the truth, the population will discern reality.

False propaganda is one of the reasons for the destruction of the USSR. One day it will lead to general demoralization of the population and total distrust of the population to the authorities.
The pendulum will always swing back. And the higher the rise, the stronger the pullback will be.

Good points SBminisguy.

Please keep posting Cuprum

1.

You are very naive to believe that Adolf Putin was going to stop at anything less than the conquering of the Ukraine, 2012 he said that the large european territory on which Russia, Ukraine and Belarus are located is our common spiritual and morale space.

He *can't.* No matter what Putin's desire, we see his ambitions are not matched by his abilities and resources. He's not going to conquer Europe as long as there's basic EU and NATO focus.

2.

russia and china were able to put their (genuine) differences to one side enough to jointly plough massive amounts of military aid directly devoted to killing young Americans in Vietnam.

Temporarily, while still being competitors and fighting border skirmishes. China looks covetously at Russian Siberian resources, Russia's always been nervous about that, But now Putin is less nervous about that than actually dying from US/NATO actions and coups. Kinda focuses his attention on being a faithful captive ally of China -- so we have pushed the creation of the new Axis bloc of Russia + China + North Korea + Iran.

3.

Typically "short border wars" don't involve air mobile ops on the outskirts of the opposition's capital or deep driving thrusts to encircle it once the air mobile operation fails. That's more of a regime change move.

Yep, that's right -- and then what? Russia failed spectacularly after Zelensky rejected Biden's offer of golden exile and motivated Ukrainians to fight back. Russia has failed to reach its regime change goals. It has failed to conquer Ukraine, and yes, the fighting is taking place in border areas.

Why didn't we push for peace as soon as Russia failed and Putin was looking for an out? The Israeli PM had both Russia and Ukraine at the table talking ceasefire and a peace deal, and then Biden stopped it. Why? Why would Biden reject a peace deal and expand and prolong the war? Several other attempts to start peace talks have also been *stopped by the Biden Admin.* Again, why, why is the Biden Admin so set on continuing the war? What do they think they will gain from it?

4.

No one was going to, or should have, made terms with Hitler. So why should we do it now with Putin

Because Putin is not Hitler. He's more like a Mussolini, and hell, we seem to have no trouble accepting Xi and China even though Xi is like Hitler and runs *ACTUAL CONCENTRATION CAMPS!*

Genocide? Xi

Ethnic cleansing? Xi

Slavery? Xi

Live human medical experimentation? Xi

Totalitarian social controls backed by secret police, fear, torture and executions? Xi

Ambitions for global empire? Xi

Seems like a bigger threat…

Ain't no concentration camps in Russia, even though Putin is an authoritarian bastard. And unlike Hitler, Russia has no capacity to conquer the world, it can barely hold its own against its poorer smaller neighbor in a war Putin foolishly started.

5.

False propaganda is one of the reasons for the destruction of the USSR. One day it will lead to general demoralization of the population and total distrust of the population to the authorities.

That is true of any society, including the US…

SBmini +1

It seems like everything else … those in power only see what fits their narrative/agenda. E.g. talking about China going Green while Xi/CCP commits daily genocide …

It seems like everything else … those in power only see what fits their narrative/agenda. E.g. talking about China going Green while Xi/CCP commits daily genocide …

And we all know the "going green" is total BS since China is clear that it will meet its industrial goals at all costs -- firing up two coal-fired power plants a week, polluting vast swathes of land with inefficient mining and resource extraction practices that result in places like the massive "toxic lake Baitou" -- where rare earth metals are mined and processed with toxic chemicals that are dumped into a vast stew of insane poison, worked by an industrial peasantry that live in what are called "Cancer Villages" where they have, as you can imagine, high death rates due to cancers.

link

Yes, the PRC/CCP is only giving Go Green lip service. But some in the US in charge at the very top. Still believe that the CCP wants to Go Green … Foolishness at the very least.

"And we all know the "going green" is total BS since China" The eco loons continue to make excuses for China whilst telling us, UK, we need to go poor to save the world!

Tally Ho!

'False propaganda' is not one of the reasons for the destruction of the ussr. Actual TRUTH is the reason for the ussr disbanding itself.

soviet false propaganda could no longer hide the truth that soviet communism was completely incapable of providing an improving standard of living for its population. Improved living standards were an illusion sustained for a while as the 1973 Arab-Israeli war inflated oil prices vastly beyond their natural level, plus lots of fake soviet economic data. The dollar revenue resulting from that gave a warm (but completely false) feeling of prosperity to all the little sovs growing up in the 1970s, who now look back to that fake golden age with something like nostalgia.

But there was no real base to that fake soviet prosperity. There was no experience of, or culture of, improving productivity. Most importantly, there was no incentive to do so- no one's fake job was at risk in the fake soviet economy. But when that fake was exposed, by truthful comparison to Western standards, most people got poorer very quickly and started to blame others. Only a tiny few, including putin, got much, MUCH, richer on the backs of the russian peoples' misfortune.

To be fair, 1970s UK, miserably poor and depressed to a degree we can barely imagine now, spent a whole decade feeling sorry for itself and blaming others for its decline, before we re-created a more productive economy in the 1980s better able to compete internationally. So it's not only the sovs/russians who have whined pathetically about how others are to blame for it's problems, Brits have done it too.

Back to the original post- I think that the two VDV and one VSRF Brigades mentioned are not completely destroyed but have little of their previous fighting power intact at present.
Aljazeera is also hardly an uncritical pro-Western source.

StillSenneffe, I disagree. The USSR, unlike Great Britain, spent huge amounts of money on a variety of not-so-practical things, such as the arms race, maintaining a huge army, supporting communist influence throughout the world, and much more. Something that the UK either did not do or did to a much lesser extent. But it was necessary, first of all, to invest this money in the development of our own economy, and not in confrontation with the "capitalist world." By limiting defense spending to amounts sufficient to protect oneself. However, this is not the topic of conversation here.
It is natural that the Russian brigades suffered losses in the directions of the main attacks. The main thing is that they held their positions and bled the enemy army dry in fruitless attempts to break through the front. Battle of Kursk 2.0
Let's now see what the Russians have in their reserves…

"Let's now see what the Russians have in their reserves…"

T-34s and SU-100s.

I think that the two VDV and one VSRF Brigades mentioned are not completely destroyed but have little of their previous fighting power intact at present.

A unit is generally considered "combat ineffective" when it takes about of 1/3 losses. But in some cases, they still are in the line taking more KIAs, WIAs, etc. Regardless, based on reports the Russian VDV & VSRF who are better than the standard line Infantry. They still have performed only marginally at best. And taking high losses in many engagements.

Aljazeera is also hardly an uncritical pro-Western source.

Like many in the news media they tell the story their own way.

T-34s and SU-100s.

Hey, why not? When even advanced Leopard 2s can be whacked by a drone, and tanks have been relegated to being direct fire infantry support tools, an SU-100 could be dang useful in breaching strongpoints and trench lines.

As long as folks are throwing clichés,

"there are two sides to everything" … That doesn't preclude one from being mostly correct or the other from being mostly wrong.

That doesn't preclude one from being mostly correct or the other from being mostly wrong.

Facts or the "truth" are in the eyes of the beholder …

"Facts or the "truth" are in the eyes of the beholder …"

No, they really aren't. The idea that nothing is true and everything is possible is a great summary of what Russian propaganda attempts to achieve.

Indeed … But people still believe what they want to believe …