"What Happens If Ukraine Can’t Beat" Topic

Tell me more!
Who will have such luck?

Jshut – "Once a sovereign state Ukraine has forfeited its independence etc", so the Ukraine should have just rolled over and become another state of Russia?

Tally Ho!

I like the clarity of thinking and discernment Ned Ludd, keep up the good work.

Iraq
Afghanistan
Libya

GWI was a UN sanction, IIRC. No way was the Free World going to allow Saddam to keep the oil from Kuwait. If Saddam had in invaded KSA and captured their oil fields. Saddam would have controlled 1/4 of the known oil reserves in the world at the time if he occupied Kuwait and possibly the KSA. Along with Iraq's oil. One must understand that would have been a very bad thing.

Afghanistan harbored AQ the terrorist group responsible the attack the US on 9/11. NATO Article 5 was in effect. One of the big problems in A'stan was the ANA/ANP could not fight the Taliban successfully. E.g. like the S. Vietnamese forces could not fight effectively vs the VC and NVA.

A'stan as with Vietnam no matter how much equipment, training, etc. they received. They could not win against their enemies.

The US leadership at the time of the Libya/Benghazi was out of their league. Didn't have the right stuff. 'nuff said …

GWII was not a good idea in retrospect. But the
dictator/tyrant Saddam was captured and executed.

Once the US and its allies left Iraq. Their gov't could not keep effective control of their now free nation. And in turn with no US, etc. in country. ISIS grew and became a worldwide threat. So yes, the US leadership at that time again were out of their league. The US had to go back eventually and effectively clip ISIS's "eggs" off.

So IMO, your opinion stated on this topic was not the whole story. But that version of events fit the narrative that the USA is "Bad" …

There are differences between actions in response to murderous crimes or threats to world peace, and crimes of aggression for no other reason than personal ambition or gain.

Legion 4 +1

Libya/Benghazi was also driven by the liberals getting upset at the images of civilians being killed, as they had been during previous "uprisings" but social media meant it was visible,

Tally Ho!

And yet again the vatniks have been able to steer the discussion towards other topics. They always say "well what about…" and being nice "dumb" people we respond and try to explain/justify. And suddenly we discuss Libya or A-stan in a defensive mode. All the while Russians commit genocide and gang rape and murder 11 yr old girls.

Nick & Legion,

People also forget that the US had no intention of annexing any of those countries……. Unlike Russia

My point also, Backstab. The US acts when someone is destabilizing peace and balance, not at the whim of dictators. We have made mistakes. We have chosen leaders not well suited for world diplomacy. Every presidential candidate should take a history test without cheating. Our politics and media are selfish and unethical.

But we have an institutional strength that is grounded in certain shared values of everyday people in both red and blue states. We have a generous spirit when others are in need. We understand the threat of aggression and brutality. We would rather not got to war as a people. But our military is still the strongest. It's just that we are not about to invade Mexico and claim it as ours.

Ah, coming late to the party, I see the protectors of the villainous slandered Russian motherland are at it again.
He makes a truly stern speech to the unruly auditorium!
Stabbing the pack here and there.
The TMP master of apodictic rhetoric, with one or the other evasive feint in between for a good measure.

But…, don't know, somehow I have the suspicious feeling that I already know all the tirades in and out…

So, a former teacher is it?

Is there a *yawn* emoji?
…obviously not…
A pity.

Libya/Benghazi was also driven by the liberals getting upset at the images of civilians being killed, as they had been during previous "uprisings" but social media meant it was visible,

I'm actually gonna go with the Oil angle here -- the deliberately started Western war with Libya that toppled Khadaffi has little to do with his treatment of the "Arab Street" protests from years before, especially how the US and Europe tacitly backed the Iranian regime during the "Green Revolution" popular uprising. Since the fall of Libya into chaos one thing is clear -- France backed and supported every regime that would give an energy contract to Total.

Total now manages Libyan oil fields that produce almost 1.2 Million barrels of oil per day.

"Khadaffi has little to do with his treatment of the "Arab Street" protests from years before"

no it was going on in 2011, part of the Arab Spring, plenty of civvies dead and a civil war before the West got involved. Khadaffi had been warmimg up to the West for a few years,

Tally Ho!

People also forget that the US had no intention of annexing any of those countries……. Unlike Russia

Well of course not … but that does not fit their narrative …

Libya/Benghazi was also driven by the liberals getting upset at the images of civilians being killed, as they had been during previous "uprisings" but social media meant it was visible,

Yes, just like Somali, the media frequently showing sick and starving children. If the US do not do anything they'd be labeled racist, etc. Even back then … Because these were Black Africans starving not "white" people. So the US had to do something.

As a sidebar I remember growing up with similar commercials and news reports of starving African children. I'm 66 years … seems not much got better, AFAIK. All AFAIK Europe and the USA sends a lot of aid of all types … and has been for decades upon decades, IIRC.

Am I missing something ?

Regardless, I DO laud the US & Europe sending all that aid of all types, to Africa, etc., e.g.; food, medical, etc. We should help our fellow man if we can. But is there a tipping point ?

And yet again the vatniks have been able to steer the discussion towards other topics.

Of course, but that is a standard, if some don't like/disagree with what some are saying about the topic we are discussing. Set up a diversion. We should be talking about the war in Ukraine …

As with Korea, this conflict would be best served now by a ceasefire, freezes the front lines as a de facto border, that stops the bloodshed and satisfies no one, but produces stability that can develop into a peaceful, political settlement down the road, when passions have cooled, leadership has changed, and all sides can pragmatically discuss the lingering issues.

I mean, would we want to be still fighting the Korean War?

So after Hitler took half of France, the World should have not resisted the Nazis any longer and freeze the front lines as de facto borders?

piper909 +1

If you want to draw comparisons with Korea, don't forget that the Korean War began by North Korea invading South Korea. Also don't forget that the armistice came and the fighting ceased, only when the fighting front lines had solidified pretty much along the original pre-war border. The armistice thus meant the pre-war border was effectively re-established.

Russia could therefore set the conditions for a Korean-style settlement tomorrow if it wished. The Ukrainians may be able to force the Russians back to their own borders, maybe they can't- we'll all see. But they have shown themselves to be very capable and determined. The Ukrainians show little sign of accepting the theft of their territory by a foreign invader as the basis of a lasting settlement. Why would they? Would the USA or the UK?

by a ceasefire, freezes the front lines as a de facto border, that stops the bloodshed and satisfies no one, but produces stability that can develop into a peaceful, political settlement down the road, when passions have cooled, leadership has changed,

Good luck with that happening. Both leaders on both sides want a victory. But the Russians just have to hold the land they have occupied. The Donbas, land bridge to Crimea and Crimea[since 2014]. So Putin will claim victory, and prep for the next invasion of the rest of the Ukraine. 5-10 years from now.

The UN would have to set up along the "borders", with check points, etc. Would Russia as part of the P5 allow that ? And would their BFFs – China, Iran, North Korea etc. not agree with Putin ? We know the answer …

StillSeneffe +1

Latest Defence Intelligence update on the situation in Ukraine – 21 September 2023.

Wonder to Know the opinion of our friend Cuprum 2 about this news…

link

Armand

No rotation for private conscriptovitch huh. It's a one way ticket to a grave, being posted to the Special Operation.

A lot of Russian mass graves in the Ukraine. They may be good fertilizer for future crops. As the Russians don't seem to care about their dead. Just leaving many behind.

The first Abrams tanks arrive inUkraine next week. First wave of Ukrainians have completed training.

Finally !!!! But more should have sent much sooner and already on the ground and running ops and killing Russian AFVs, etc.