"basing question" Topic

so i got a copy of Empire 4th edition – finally a copy of Empire although i know this is the version people like the least, it was of course the cheapest copy at the time.

Just a question on basing in empire games in general – for 5-15mm scales is it just 2 infantry figures per stand? i see diagrams where it is two and that sounds like what is being described but i see other diagrams that have 3 or 4 per stand – such as the diagram of the prussian column of advance

is there basing arrangement that works for Empire and other rules at the same time?

Hi
Each figure is should have a individual frontage of 3/8th inch save British which is 1/2inch as they fought in two ranks. My period of interest is 1809-14 so after the French reforms of 1808 which reduced the number of companies per battalion from nine to six my french infantry are based in three's save the elite companies which I represent with two Voligeurs and one Grenadier. I do however have several bases with two Grenadiers and one Voltigeur. I only set up a game with French battalions of either nine or twelve figures. My Russians are based in two's with eight Fig battalions and my Austrians are based in three's with battalions of twelver or fifteen figs. Hope that helps.

Prussians of 1813-15 should be based in threes with twelve/fifteen figs I suggest the Fusilier battalion should have three figs based like the french Vols and Grens so they can skirmish. Jagers in two's for same reason.

thanks – are those figures all on bases together or are they just grouped together so that singular figures might be movable?

I use Empire rules ( 3) my stands are by company so however companies are in a Battalion that's how many separate stands you have. They can be from 1 figure to 5 might be biggest I have. It would be ideal to have a light Battalion in 1/2 company to use as skirmishers.

thanks – you are basing the number of figures on the 1:60 figure scale ratio yes? 5 figures though – a 300 man company?
also arent all stands done by company in empire?

I know my Russians has 2 figures per stand.

My Russians are 2 to 3 figures per company. My oob is from Borodino but am way over what they should be but still built as they should be on a full enlistment.
My Prussians are from a oob just before the Aug 1813 armistice broke so they are higher than they should be.

The most I have on a base is three abreast. Two for the Russians. I only have either a French voltigeur or Grenadier on a single base though most on the voltigeurs are in pairs as are my Austrian Jagers. Nothing in blocks one behind the other.

If its too fiddly because they topple over make some movement trays. Pieces of card with matchsticks around the edge though I must admit I don't bother.

My Russians infantry
Guards 12 figures, Guard Jager 8 -10
Musketeers 12 or 11
Jagers 8 – 10
Cavalry mostly all 12, few 8 -10
Cossacks Ataman 14
Rest 6 – 8

Been that way built for many years, works for me. As said over a bit for Borodino. There I long ago figured would lose 1 company in ever battalion would be close. But they still pack a lot of artillery

Our Empire 3 'standard' was 4 2 figure stands per Russian battalion (possibly 3 figures for Guards). 6 3 figure stands for Austrians. 4 3 Figure stands for Prussians.

French had 2 2 figure (lights and grenadier companies) and 2 4 figure stands (12 figures). the 4 figure stands were 2 companies each.

Does that help?

yes that helps – so is a stand supposed represent around 100 metres roughly ie the rough frontage of a company?

due to space limitations and because the rules mention 5mm scale also , i am thinking maybe 5mm , though the rules dont detail how 5mm is based, but i imagine one cant really buy individual 5mm figs, instead they are normally in strips like 6mm

actually 5mm miniature ranges dont seem to exist anymore do they – i was just looking online for them -6mm and 3mm and 2mm but no 5mm

I want to just use a scale that will make Empire playable in a smaller space like no more than 4x6 feet and preferably less – woudl this be possible?

Even at Borodino the Russian guard units were at full strength

100 metres is the frontage of a battalion, not a company. Company frontage is 30 yards

ah 100 is a battalion roughly? – i got the company idea from this reddit post on basing sorry
link

there the person wrote:
"to get into details:
taking the french as prime example, they were organised in 3 ranks and a company was ~130 meters wide while only ~2,5 meters deep (without Officers that were further behind)
going with 28mm being 1:56, 2,5cm (1 standard inch) would represent 140m

Working on a new cavalry Regiment just thought I have every one with at least a1 figure stand, so as this Regiment has 8 figures will have 2 x 1 figure stands. I do remove casualties on them switching out figures.

I have enjoyable Divisional sized battles on a 6x4 table.

An entire battalion in line was approximately 130 meters, a company at about 1/6th of that. 20-25 meters frontage for a company. 40 troops at 20" shoulder to shoulder, roughly translates to 22 meters per full strength (120+) company, multiply by 6 companies. About 130 meters.

Since we are talking basing for Empire, my question is for the Portuguese from 1810-1814. Are they based for two rank infantry or three rank? They were British trained, so I assume they would be based using the two rank measurements, just like the British.

Portuguese are two rank after 1808 per Appendix G of Empire V. All Anglo allies are two rank in 1815.

Regarding figures, I doubt you'll find it practical to handle tiny bases of 6s. Like that ‘size', nominal 10s also vary, roughly from 1/160 to 1/144 scale, but you can get significantly smaller frontages than with 15s.

The Old Glory infantry do indeed come in strips, 5 on a 1-inch frontage. It might be wider with advancing poses; the OG site is not informative, but I gather that instance of wider strips (maybe ca. 1-1/8") is the case with the Civil War line.

I don't have experience, but from what I've read cutting strips is a fair bit of bother — perhaps typically including a significant frequency of figures' brittle legs breaking. That's just trimming strips; four cuts on each would of course be more work.

I think most other lines — Pendraken, GHQ, Magister Militum, Irregular, etc. — are cast as individual figures. Probably all can fit on 2/3 the old standard frontages for 15s (and a slight further shave).

Adjust ground scale from 1" to 40 yards to 16mm to 40 yards. Now your 4' X 6' table is equivalent to 6' X 9' (and change).

Frontages then are 6mm or 8mm per infantryman, 12mm per cavalryman. Depth might need to be slightly less reduced, but I'm not sure.

I recall it being common to base infantry by company, rather more than typical field strength (perhaps offset by others rather under) to make up equal bases. Maybe that's not stipulated in the book, though?

It's easier to approximate strengths for a given battle — without need to base units especially for it — if you're not so bound, but can put together varying numbers of bases.

(Nowadays, the Nafziger Orders of Battle Collection is freely available online, a pretty respectable source of data on campaigns and battles.)

Three-figure infantry bases (or two-figure for the Brits and Portuguese) have been fairly common with other rules sets. Typical field strengths are in the neighborhood of 540-600, or 720-900 for the Austrians. (British Guards and some others also tend higher, partly from starting with a larger establishment.)

Many base all cavalry in pairs. In the course of hard campaigns, a lot of regiments would get down to fewer squadrons than establishment and those near a ‘floor' of 120 (the Brits being more prone to go down to 100).

On the other hand, if you're modeling a regiment that historically stayed much closer to establishment, and that was circa 200 sabers per squadron, then you might want to use three figures per base.

I think the number of gun models — on appropriate frontage for the number of pieces in a battery — can be anywhere from one per battery (for the frugal) to one per section (for the Russian player who wants that "grand battery" look).

A compromise is I like is one model on 60 yards for 3-4 tubes: 2 for a 6-8 piece battery, 3 for 12 cannon.

Some people use singly based figures for casualty removal, but in my experience most prefer to leave frontage the same unless losses reach a greater threshold (and perhaps even then adjust only after a day of battle).

One alternative is markers, casualty figures bringing a look some like. I prefer to use a roster system, but some people detest that more than I dislike what I call ‘clutter' on the table.

Different strokes for different blokes!

This isn't an answer to the original question, but a comment on what I will be doing. As explained here I've done a deep dive into Revolution & Empire (thank goodness I have Empire V which helped address some of my questions about R&E) for a ply by email game using computer images (using PowerPoint) for tracking the course of the battle.

TMP link

I'm enjoying the rules enough that I will use them for actual miniatures on the table top. All of my Napoleonic figures are based on 40mm wide bases with the infantry in double ranks. Mostly it's 8 infantry (4 X 2), 3 cavalry and 1 gun model per base but not always (e.g., an infantry base with a mounted officer might have 5 or 7 figures). So, I will be using a roster to keep track of casualties and I've figured out the Empire/R&E strength of each base:

1) Infantry base = 4 Empire figures (that works out to 30 troops / figure for an 8 figure base). That means a column one base wide would be about the same as a two-company wide column where a company is about 60 men.

2) Cavalry converged = 2 (normal) Empire figures (i.e., 40 troops / base for a 3 figure base).

3) Artillery = 3-4 guns but I could go with 6-8 instead of the using double ranked artillery as per the Empire rules.

It's not perfectly aligned but it's close enough for me; and I'm not going to rebase all of those miniatures.