"Two-lidded ammo chest on ACW limber" Topic

Anyone know if a two-lidded ammunition chest was a thing in the ACW period?

I recently purchased a single 10mm ACW limber set from Silver Eagle to see if I liked the miniature. The website indicates it is an Irregular Miniature.

Anyway, I like the mini (and the price; I want a limber set for each artillery stand) but was a but surprised at the ammo chest with a "channel" splitting the lid into two.

Sounds like a caisson. A limber had one box and lid. caissons had two boxes and lids. Check the web for a caisson and see if that is what you are looking at. caissons stayed further back from the line and supplied extra ammunition after the limbers emptied.

Hope this helps

A caisson was pulled by a limber and six horses,just like an artillery piece.

And the ammunition boxes on the limber and caisson were removable.

Would each gun have its own caisson or were they general resupply for a battery? Any idea how many caissons in a 6 gun battery?

I never paint and most I know, don't paint the Caisson, as they were further behind the line. Just the gun and gun limber and horses. The caissons make for extra money and time, for little if any purpose other than aesthetic. But your choice of course. Enjoy

"Each gun in the section was supported by a caisson which carried two ammunition chests, plus a limber for the caisson, which limber had one additional ammunition chest. Typically, there were available about 1,200 rounds for the battery going into battle, which would be divided into the sections according to the number of guns in the battery.

Horses were required to pull the enormous weight of the cannon and ammunition (close to two tons for a cannon and its attached limber chest of ammunition). On average, each horse pulled about 700 pounds (317.5 kg).

Each gun in a battery used two six-horse teams: one team pulled a limber that towed the gun, the other tea, pulled a limber that towed a caisson. The limber was a two-wheeled carriage that carried an ammunition chest. It was connected directly behind the team of six horses and towed either a gun or a caisson. In either case, the combination provided the equivalent of a four-wheeled vehicle, which distributed the load over two axles but was easier to maneuver on rough terrain than a four-wheeled wagon."

Each field piece in a field artillery battery had a limber with one ammunition chest and one caisson (two ammunition chests along with a spare wheel) pulled by a limber. Each of these vehicles had a six-horse gun team.

So, in a 6-gun battery there would be six caissons.

There would be more ammunition with the artillery and ammunition reserve.

There are quite a few excellent artillery references for the Civil War, both primary and excellent secondary sources. If anyone would like a listing, I'll post those that I have.

The Imrie/Risley Miniatures site might also be helpful as they produced the three main artillery pieces used in the war as well as the standard limber and caisson. The six-horse team is also available.

I have this material it is excellent as well as accurate.

You can also go to the web and search numerous sites dealing with civil war artillery. Some will link you to additional sources.

Good luck

Examples:

Subject: Artilleryman Magazine | historicalpublicationsllc.com


link

Subject: The Civil War Artillery Projectile and Cannon Home Page


civilwarartillery.com

Instead of websites, much of which have no or little reference to credible artillery sources, the following might be more helpful and accurate:

-The Guns at Gettysburg by Fairfax Downey.

-Sound of the Guns by Fairfax Downey.

-The Artillery Service in the War of the Rebellion 1861-1865 by John Tidball.

-Grape and Canister by L VanLoan Naisawald.

-The Artillerist's Manual by John Gibbon.

-Field Artillery Tacticss 1864 by William French, William Barry, and Henry Hunt.

-Ordnance and Gunnery by James Benton.

-The Artillery of Gettysburg by Bradley Gottfried.

-Civil War Artillery at Gettysburg by Philip Cole.

The only down side for books is that they get expensive collecting a reference library. It is also time-consuming. On the other hand, you'll always have them on hand to use and they are valuable references. And if you're careful what you collect, they are accurate and reliable.

-Artillery and Ammunition of the Civil War by Warren Ripley.

-Field Artillery Weapons of the Civil War by James Hazlett, Edwin Olmstead, and M Hume Parks.

Guys obviously, make up your own minds. Since the original question was:

"Anyone know if a two-lidded ammunition chest was a thing in the ACW period?"

That question has been answered. If you want to read websites or spend the money on books or both, or none, that is your prerogative.

Enjoy whatever you do.

Thanks for the replies, one and all!

The item I purchased is described as "TACW33 – Limber with two horses and seated figure."

Here's what I think is the issue: I don't use limber riders. If I used the rider with the limber, the "channel" wouldn't be visible and the one (1) ammo chest wouldn't look like the lid is split into two.

I decided to use caissons with my limber & horse teams instead of rotating the artillery stands with crew 180 degrees. It gives me a chance to model the caissons and Irregular Miniatures sells the darn things for $1.00 USD each in 10mm!!

Of course, this is all in theory: My huge order of 34 limbers & horses and 34 caissons have yet to even been cast, I assume. I already have six limbers with horses and six caissons from Old Glory. Love the miniatures but the cost savings with Irregular Miniatures is huge.

@Brechtel198 Thanks for the website. What a great visual reference! The detail is amazing at 54mm!

Thanks as well for the book references.

Regarding artillerymen mounted on the limbers: Horse artillery batteries didn't do that as they had their gunners individually mounted.

I've collected and painted Imrie/Risley miniatures since 1965. I was also fortunate to meet Bill Imrie in 1994.

And just to make sure-the Civil War ammunition box on both the limber and caisson had one lid…

The British limber of ca 1794 had two boxes, not one.

The new French limber of the Valee Artillery System of 1827, modeled on the British vehicles they fought against in Spain and Belgium, had only one lid. The American artillery arm undoubtedly used the Valee System as a model.

From the Imrie/Risley website:

link

The limber as stated was a removable ammunition box with a single lid opening forwards to protect the contents from sparks .

The inside had a pasted fuze settings chart.

The cassion was two limber boxes, one behind the other, usually with a spare wheel mounted at the rear as well.

Mr B's model website shows the equipment very well indeed.

There would also be battery wagons, forge and wagons as part of the units maintainence element.

Best wishes,

Chris

You can always tell a caisson from a limber.

Look at the pole. A limber is drawn by a team of horses and the central pole needs to extend beyond the wheel horses, to carry swingle trees for the next pair to pull.

A caisson is pulled by a limbers and has a stouter, but much shorter, staff to connect it. No need to fit in a horse now.

Except of course the British RHA when they used the offset double shafts, for the limbers, but that rule still applies if you look carefully enough.

The caisson team makes a very attractive addition to a battery and is one heck of a target for artillery in any game (or real battle). A lot more to go bang

Since this was asked about a CW caisson. You can see caisson in back, limber in front.

Here you go

Subject: ACW43 Union Caisson at Full gallop ( includes 6 limber horses, 3 riders, caisson , limber and 6 crew seated) – Perry Miniatures


link

Below is limber in artillery piece

I did not read the article, just sending it along for the photo

Subject: Emerging Civil War


link

Caisson by itself

Subject: Guns of History Civil War CAISSON Ammunition Carriage 1:16 SCALE


link

Lastly

This is interesting as it details distances. Gun to gun, limber to gun, caisson to gun, when dismounted. I have read varied distances, also heard the same from discussions at military parks. Distance would also be determined somewhat by terrain. Obviously you don't want the limber too close to the dismounted field piece, as the limber getting hit and exploding when too close, would take out gun crew and possibly the gun.

Hope all this helps

Subject: Prospect Hill Artillery Footprint | Mercer Square


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I think that the original question was about a split ammunition box, Ala Airfix/Revell as examples.

These were useful for seating the limber riders provided in the Airfix set but not representative of reality except emergency movement as the extra weight provided extra strain for the team.

I notice that the Perry's have got into this as well from the link.

The artillery men normally marched with the piece whilst the ‘horse artillery' gunners rode on their separate horse.

The ammunition box was a one piece item as stated mounted on a limber or as a pair on a cassion.

Happy modelling.

Chris

"Anyone know if a two-lidded ammunition chest was a thing in the ACW period?"

🤔 if it is "one" chest with two split lids.., then for me, that is extremely unique. But if two back to back chests, as in the links, that would be a caisson.

I guess he will have to tell us, or say if the links look like what he has.

I have ever only seen limbers or caissons.

There is the traveling forge, but can't believe that is it. As there are not split lids on the box.

Subject: Civil War Traveling Forge Wagon : r/Blacksmith


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My best guess is caisson

Hopefully, this will illustrate what I mean.

theminiaturespage.com

‌"TMP link

A single, lidded box containing various ammunition types and fuzes with the settings pasted on the lids inside. The lid was a single piece, I believe lined with zinc.

One on a limber and two on a cassion.

These are Conversions for my Antietam refight in 20mm and the cassion is not hitched in this picture.

The ordnance is also obviously missing but for the sharp eyed the settings are for a 12pdr.

Happy modelling,

Chris

Yes a gun limber and a limber with attached caisson.

Can't tell if your caisson has the double box or not.

But I think we speak of the same things. Having the chart on the gun limber is nice detail. Our repro 6 pounder has the same chart. 🙂

Hi,

Yes it has two ammunition boxes.

Honest!

Chris

I believe you. 🙂

Just could not tell in the photo.

Again, everyone, thanks for the replies!!

I'd post a picture of what I have (it's a single ammo box with a "split" lid) but I think @Chris Dodson (thanks for that awesome picture!) is on to something: I think this was a manufacturing decision and that the included limber rider would have covered that split with their rears. :)

For a bit of clarity: as molded, the "crack" in the lid and the assumed "crack" in the rider's bum would be parallel, lol. The channel runs width-wise (the smaller side of the rectangle).

I don't use limber riders, so it obviously stands out to me. I'll be filling it in best I can to make it a continuous lid.

F