"Polish/Red Lancer question" Topic

Am I correct in thinking the only difference between the 1st Squadron (Polish) Lancers of the French Imperial Guard and the other (red) squadrons was that the Polish lancers had an "N" on the saddlecloth?

In this case, the Victrix 28mm lancers I have are all Polish 1st Squadron (the "N" is cast onto the saddlecloth) and this will need removing with a knife for them to be red lancers.

Or have I got that all wrong?

The uniforms were a different color-dark blue for the Poles and red for the rest of the Lancer Regiment.

you must separate the guard lancers pre-1814 and those of hundred days times

before the first adbication, there were up to 3 regiments of lancers, (plus 3 of eclaireurs-lanciers)
the first one was blue, Polish, with 4 to 8 squadrons
the second was red, made of the old Holland Guard Hussards troops, 4 squadrons (plus some young guards ones)
the third was franco-polish, with the same uniform than the first, but poppy red facings instead of strawberry color

the first two had crowned "N" on the saddlecloth, the third, maybe not, as it was deemed a "young guard" unit

those were disbanded with the army mid 1814, except one (small) squadron of the first regiment, who went to Elba with Napoleon.

For the hundred days, the lancer regiment was reinstated, with the first squadron being the Poles who went to Elba (with some french reinforcement) the three other squadrons were all french, newly raised from old soldiers as an "old guard" unit, in an uniform close to that of the 2nd regiment.

so regarding the "N" on the saddlecloth for hundred days, lets say the old poles had it for sure. the new troopers for the rest of the regiment…who knows!

Not from a difference wanted between squadrons, but from the dearth of equipment of any kind all trough the army.

the Guard was ordered new equipments quite early in the preparation, but with the dearth of species, disorganisation, logistical nightmare that was the preparation of almost 400 000 new soldiers (guard, line and national guard) that were pushed to every frontier before mid-june, nobody can say for sure what the regular joe got in any particular unit.

for the lancers, they had a lance, sure! Most had a sabre, and perhaps some pistols, with or without ammo.

some were certainly still in green from line dragons/chasseurs/lancers units (under a greatcoat to hide that), headdress was the same, with a good number of undress caps replacing unavailable czapska.

saddlecloth, IMO, were a rarity (price, logistics), and were certainly old stock repaired or recovered, so with "N", from the 2nd regiment. some had received new one, but with no one checking what was done, and no time to correct blunders, their design is conjectural

long answer short, do as you wish! Nobody will ever be able to prove you wrong either way…

Lance pennons were red over white for the Polish Lancers, and white over red for the Dutch.

Fantastic help, Gounour – that's what I love about this forum – thank you very much!

I'd like to do both Polish and red lancers, so good to know I don't have to take a knife to half of the saddlecloths. I'd going to choose the full dress option (the Victrix set contains both options), which I realise is extremely unlikely, (especially in 1815 according to your description!) but I just can't resist the full peacock appeal of those colour combinations. Why have a dull black oilskin czapska, when you gave a gold crescent sun?!

But good point about the forage caps etc – I'll throw some of those in. Thank you!

One small puzzle – I have Rousselt's book of paintings of the Garde cavalry. It features the Chasseurs and Grenadiers a cheval, and the Empress Dragoons.

The final section is the lancers but only shows the Polish uniforms (pink/purple and blue) but not a single one of the Dutch/red lancers. Were the latter not considered Garde? Why are they not in the book?

Author's choice.

The artist in the book is Rousselot, but the author is Edward Ryan.

There is the book Napoleon's Army 1790-1815 which is a compilation of Rousselot's plates. He is the author of that one. And the 2d Regiment of Light Horse Lancers of the Guard are covered on pages 269-278. The 2d Lancers only existed from 1810-1815, the Polish Guard Lancers three years longer.

Then there is also the plates by Rousselot…

Let's not forget that shoulder lace on the Polish lancers was on the right, and left for the Dutch.

those were disbanded with the army mid 1814, except one (small) squadron of the first regiment, who went to Elba with Napoleon.

The 2d Guard Lancer Regiment was not disbanded in 1814 after the first abdication. The regiment had a change of title, they became the Royal Corps of Light Horse Lancers of France, but they were not disbanded. Neither were the Grenadiers a Cheval nor the Dragoons of the Guard. And the Guard Chasseurs a Cheval wasn't disbanded either. Thje 1st Lancer Regiment of the Guard, less the squadron that accompanied Napoleon to Elba, went home to Poland.

For the lancers, see The Red Lancers by Ron Pawly, 97.

…shoulder lace on the Polish lancers was on the right, and left for the Dutch.

The shoulder lace for the Poles was on the right until they were converted to lancers in 1809 after Wagram. Then it was on the left shoulder. The Poles were initially formed as light horse, and not lancers.

As the 2d Lancers were formed as lancers, the aquillettes were always on the left.

You learn something new everyday, thanks.

You're welcome.

All we are doing, with all the fine research that has been done through the years, is scratch the surface of any historical period. A wise man, and excellent military historian, told me that years ago.

The red lancers are usually shown with a black sheepskin, yellow toothed edging, over the blue shabraque. The Polish lancers did not show this, just the shabraque.

No N crowned, in front, for the Red lancers, only the Poles, as Lord Hill said above.

Very minor differences in the lapels of the kurtka, quite invisible in any wargaming figures. Same with some detail on the Czapka crown ornamentation.

Both swapped the side of the aiguilettes for NCOs and Officers.

The names are confusing for The Hundred Days compared with pre-abdication and any uniform detail for 1815 must be doubtful. One hundred days (actually much less), was not much time to worry about details of dress!