"The Teaching of US History" Topic

that isn't how my professors used the term.

Mine certainly did. And they didn't mince words about it.

Interestingly, they explained the definitions right along with plagiarism.

It might be helpful if you revealed who 'Allen' and 'Watters' are…

Jesse Watters is Fox news. Allen was thoroughly discussed in earlier posts you did not read.

I don't think we were trained the same way. Mine was at Rice University, 1964-70 (BA and MA) and then University of Virginia, 1971-74 (PhD).

(This is like Jefferson and Adams comparing education in the musical 1776 when they disagreed on spelling inalienable.)

I attended and graduated from West Point and then Norwich for my master's program.

Watters? You've got to be kidding.

Ah 60s and early 70s in the south explains so much.

'Ah 60s and early 70s in the south explains so much.'

Exactly.

Jesse Watters is Fox news. Allen was thoroughly discussed in earlier posts you did not read.

Yeah, Jesse Watters that dangerous intellectual.

Just more proof that anyone who says what he wants to hear is automatically exalted to expert status.

That's why a 50 year old book written by a communist is suddenly all the rage, because it says exactly what he wants to be true. If that same author had blasted slave owners and slavery he'd be condemning him as a threat to America.

I don't think we were trained the same way. Mine was at Rice University, 1964-70 (BA and MA) and then University of Virginia, 1971-74 (PhD).

Why are we constantly bombarded by his degrees? Is he blaming those institutions for his inability to accept the mainstream definitions of historical revisionism?

Also, he keeps using examples from the media of what politicians think. Is this a case of projection? I read the Florida Curriculum guideline myself, I dont rely on what others say to identify a bad idea.

Indeed, the hatred for the south -- not the GWTW south but TODAY's -- does indeed explain a lot.

Someone asked Flannery why her stories are filled with freaks. (As is the Southern Gothic genre generally). She answered that in the South we still know what freaks are.

But bless your hearts, I'm sure you're doing the best you can.

dcmb, Rice was whites only during your education wasn't it?
What was that like?

Oh lookee, turns out the AP course includes as essential knowledge precisely the point the Democrats are condemning:
EK stands for Essential Knowledge.

EK 2.8.A.4
In addition to agricultural work, enslaved
people learned specialized trades and worked
as painters, carpenters, tailors, musicians,
and healers in the North and South. Once
free, American Americans used these skills to
provide for themselves and others.

Who knew DeSantis had infiltrated the AP course designers!!!

I am going to stick with my assertion that Allen falsely represented the concerns people are having about this.

The word indoctrination has bothered me. Have you ever been warned about it in any curriculum guide? It has an authoritarian sound to it as if some ideas have been made illegal by the law. Indoctrination means Lost Cause narrative to me in this case. But I still would not use it in a curriculum guide.

I think much of the guidelines sound okay. It's curious they have so much detail in them, as if the practitioners in the classroom need this much help. Looking at the Board of Ed, it might help them as much as anyone. They have to rule on these matters. But the teachers?

Bobrob, actually, my class was the last all-white to matriculate, and we got a black student coming in sophomore year. But Rice was pretty white for a while. Will Rice's will required that Rice Institute be tuition free and limited to white male residents of Texas. Iirc they added girls in the 1930s. Out-of-staters were still limited to I think 10%. My class was the last to go through tuition free. The university had to go to court to change the will in each case.

About half of the ROTC cadre were black. Impressive men.

Allen going on Fox to be interviewed says it all…

This is all happening in the context of highly charged political activity, resulting in media attention money can't buy. Nobody does culture war like "America's" newsroom.

Tort, yes indeed.

Kevin, going on, say, MSNBC would say something too. We feel the same away about your media.

😁

Doc +1 Can't leave out "The View" or "CNN" bastions of truth. 😉

All true!! Although I have never seen the View. Lines must be drawn somewhere.

There is no "my" media. I learn from everywhere. My thinking is that much of this topic is a real ratings grabber.

But I am likely to be edited out for bringing this up. Sorry….

Tort, you should watch The View some, just for the entertainment value. Some women in my gym have it on one of TV's near the stationary bikes I use. All I can say is… 😂 but don't watch it too many days in a row, I can't vouch for the permanent long term effects. 🙂

Allen going on Fox to be interviewed says it all…

It's pure populism. And worse, it's pure made up populism for the numb.

I am just not gonna do it 35th. I don't want something bad to happen to the tv. Same for the couch women on that other station. It's hard enough holding onto reality now!

Tort 😉

More on the Florida curriculum:

link

Indeed:
link

Indeed:
link/

Indeed, indeed:

link

Note the bold print.

The tweet contained a screenshot from the course outline that said: "In addition to agricultural work, enslaved people learned specialized trades and worked as painters, carpenters, tailors, musicians, and healers in the North and South. Once free, American Americans (sic) used these skills to provide for themselves and others."

Also listed under "essential knowledge" in a course unit called "Slavery, Labor and American Law," is that many enslaved people "relied on skills developed in Africa."

The outline also states that enslaved people "were foundational to the American economy, even though they and the descendants were alienated from the wealth that they both embodied and produced."

It adds: "Over centuries, slavery deeply entrenched wealth disparities along the U.S.'s racial lines. Enslaved African Americans had no wages to pass down to descendants and no legal right to accumulate property, and individual exceptions to these laws depended on their enslavers' decision."

Aside from the fact that one is a College level course and one for HS, there is nothing implying being a slave was a happy, fulfilling, productive existence; which is insinuated in the Governor's HS course version.

Additionally the College course suggests that African Americans have been severely hamstrung economically by slavery; if you agree with the course's statement around skills learned, then can we assume you probably agree with ideas around reparations to descendants of slaves?

More on Florida under draconian education legislation:

link

from THE GUARDIAN? Really?

Reported from a number of other sources and confirmed by the gov, as he offers them a fond farewell.

@Brechtel

An unfortunate side effect of pandering to low information voters is that for a short term, personal gain, one ends up damaging ones state for decades to come. That "Brain Drain" occurring in Florida schools is unfortunate for a state that already makes the list of dumbest states in America.

link

Says she decided to leave as soon as she heard DeS was taking over. Well, Buh Bye!

It sounds like everything will work out just fine then.

Florida has been suffering from a teacher shortage. Veterans there can now get a 5 year teaching certificate without a degree. While I fully support veterans, this seems a little off.
The teacher shortage reminds me of the recruiting issues in the military. Maybe the teachers leaving their profession in FLA can enlist while the retiring veterans there become teachers and replace them.

Most vets I know would make excellent classroom teachers. The military does instruction right.

I was a lateral entry teacher, in that I did not have an education degree. My degree was in engineering. So, in order to get my teaching certificate I had to take seven classes in 'education.' Only two of the seven were beneficial. Degrees in education, in my experience, are not as strong as degrees in math and science. A math education degree, for example, is not equal to a hard math degree.

The middle school in which I taught had about fifteen retired Marines and a few retired sailors. The school was quiet and well-disciplined. That being said, we veterans still had to go through the education 'hoops' to get our permanent teaching certificate. I have no problem with that at all.

The problem I found in public education was the mediocre quality of most administrators (principals and assistant principals. The good ones were fine, the incompetent ones couldn't even spell 'leadership.' One in particular, when she reported to our school and in her first meeting bragged about the teachers she got rid of in her last school. Not encouraging to us at all. She believed that asking her a question in a meeting was insubordination.

I firmly believe that a good portion of the administrators go that route because they can't hack it in the classroom.

I learned how to teach at West Point and in the Marine Corps.

Veterans there can now get a 5 year teaching certificate without a degree. While I fully support veterans, this seems a little off.

Where is the knowledge base? It is just 'a little off.'

Teaching is a profession. I think the vets I know would not function well in a classroom full of kids without more education. You don't want a plumber taking out you appendix even if he he a great plumber.

Lots of people would make great teachers. Life skills and experiences are great, some great guest lectures happen all the time. No degree of any kind waters down the profession, a stop gap measure too far for a state with significant and growing difficulties.

Again this is no knock on vets. Or any other field that requires specific education and trading. It's takes year to prepare for many careers. I don't want government deciding some are interchangeable.

Kevin, yes, your experience and mine are very similar. Some of the best instruction I ever received was at Infantry Hall at Benning. Ed course are by and large a waste of time.

Excellent instruction is not confined to the US Army. I wasn't too impressed with the instruction at Fort Benning (now renamed).

West Point and the Basic School at Quantico had excellent instructors-not all, but most.

And of the middle school teachers I worked with for twenty years, over ninety percent were excellent and were masters of the subject(s) they taught. They were also dedicated professionals who worked long hours and were not paid what they were worth. And a good portion of them had advanced degrees.

This is all fine. A degree from West Point and time in the army is not the same as no degree and time in the army.

Ed courses are not mostly a waste of time, any more than in other fields.

There are a lot of reasons we are short of teachers. Florida is not helping this.

Just a note-Fort Benning is now Fort Moore.

Using indoctrination as a teaching tool:

link

This is really scary…

There is no such thing as 'truth' in history. Everyone has their own 'truth.' What there is, are historical facts.

Teaching, and writing history is a process where actual facts are researched and assembled and a logical conclusion is drawn from them. That is historical inquiry. What is going on today in some cases is absolute nonsense. Facts are not political or ideological, they are merely the facts and to find them can be a lot of work. But it is honest work which brings an honest result. And facts can also be uncomfortable for some as they tend to disprove myths and legends.

Every time I see the word 'truth' in title of a book on history, no matter what period, I am skeptical of what the author has written and take a hard look at it. I have found that many books with the word 'truth' in the title are inaccurate and have an agenda that is ahistorical.

Kevin, what is the relationship between truth and honesty?

Truth is the standard by which we know good history from bad. And there is a great deal more to it than facts. The selection and exclusion and arrangement and emphasis of facts is what historians do, with truth as an aim. Never all the truth, of course.

Perhaps you should read what Henry Adams had to say about it…

Perhaps I should. Oh wait . . .

Who is Dr. William B. Allen?

Here is some information that may be helpful:

'William B. Allen, a retired professor with a history of promoting far-right, anti-public school, and anti-LGBTQ causes, previously served as chairman of the U.S. Civil Rights Commission in 1989.'

link

I wonder how accurate the story is?

The selection and exclusion and arrangement and emphasis of facts is what historians do, with truth as an aim. Never all the truth, of course.

Accuracy should be the 'aim' of studying, writing, and teaching history.

'Exclusion and arrangement and emphpasis of facts' sounds a lot like an agenda and revisionism to emphasize an agenda, not history.

That is not what history is or supposed to be.

How many now believe Washington's army secured the airports during the Revolution? Alternate facts about history abound as well.

Kevin, your conception of history is too small, too limited. History is a literary art form; that is why it has a muse. I don't believe she has inspired you much.

Tort, that would be none. Unless you can show otherwise.

Well, I cannot show otherwise about "manning the air" during the Revolution, doc. But I bet I could find people if I tried. "One if by land, two if by sea, three if arriving at Terminal D." American history, like geography, is a total blank for a number of our citizens.