robert piepenbrink  | 10 Jul 2023 4:14 p.m. PST |
OK, not the main movie. That would be ridiculous. But I'd like to observe that the people involved did something pretty good with fall of Nazi Germany sequence. The wild variety of uniforms, the number of kids in uniform and the overall half-trained, slipshod feel of Indy's opponents was a long way from the proto-Afrika Korps of Raiders. I'd have to go back most of a lifetime to come up with a film (not a documentary) that did so good a job of capturing an army and nation in the last stages of defeat. Someone involved knew what he (or she) was doing. Pity it wasn't the scriptwriters. |
| microgeorge | 10 Jul 2023 6:12 p.m. PST |
Trying to polish a  here? |
| microgeorge | 10 Jul 2023 6:13 p.m. PST |
Let's try that again. Trying to polish a mass of fecal matter here? |
| 79thPA | 10 Jul 2023 7:13 p.m. PST |
My son and I are looking forward to it. |
| CeruLucifus | 11 Jul 2023 12:36 a.m. PST |
My wife and I enjoyed it. |
Old Glory  | 11 Jul 2023 6:05 a.m. PST |
It is what it is.
I enjoyed it and the Roman attack on Syracuse scenes especially-- and I don't really give a hoot how wrong they were.. Russ Dunaway |
| advocate | 11 Jul 2023 6:11 a.m. PST |
I enjoyed for the romp it was. You knew what you were getting from the first few minutes of "Raiders…". This was up there with the first film, and yes, Robert, the atmosphere in the first scenes was great. |
 20thmaine | 11 Jul 2023 6:33 a.m. PST |
It's a perfectly good Indiana Jones movie, in my opinion. Lots of daring do, chases on various vehicles and Indy and his female sidekick arguing There were some clever in references, I liked the final point of the puppet show for example. But no spoilers from me  I don't know why it has flopped, unless it's as simple as the audience have lost interest in the franchise. I hope it isn't because a strong female lead was written in, that would be a rather sad comment on fragile masculinity not being able to cope with that aspect. So I m rooting for "bored with indy", although personally I enjoyed it as a fun adventure film. |
 Silurian | 11 Jul 2023 7:17 a.m. PST |
I agree, I was impressed with the uniforms and atmosphere of Nazi doom at the beginning. I enjoyed the movie – it was exactly what I was hoping for in an Indy romp.
I would have liked for his son to still be around and see a transition into a new generation, but oh well. |
| Tgerritsen | 11 Jul 2023 7:28 a.m. PST |
'Sad fragile masculinity' is such a reductive and dismissive statement. It's part and parcel of today's level of debate. Reduce someone's argument to something crude and then decry it rather than exploring the issue. Anecdotally, most of the positive reviews I have seen of it came from men while most negative reviews I have seen of it came from women. What does that do to your argument? I think it tanked due to just the unnecessity of it all after 4 was received so badly and general 'franchise fatigue.' People are tired of cash grabs of stories told over and over and over and over. It's a time for fresh ideas to take hold rather than milking the same stone over and over. |
| Grattan54 | 11 Jul 2023 9:13 a.m. PST |
I enjoyed it. I also admire a guy in his 80s who can still appear in an action film and do well. More than most of us could say who are criticizing the film. |
| 20thmaine | 11 Jul 2023 11:19 a.m. PST |
'Sad fragile masculinity' Oooh…I seem to have touched a nerve. And it also wasn't what I said, I said "sad comment on fragile masculinity". Which is completely different. When someone says they won't see a film because it has a strong female lead/co-lead really I just pity them. It must be terrible to feel so threatened. When they attack a film in a franchise like this one which they haven't even seen because they perceive that woman are given lead parts as strong as their male counterparts and somehow this "ruins" the film series then, to me, it is rather sad that they are so petty.
So, like you, I prefer to hope it is just franchise fatigue. This one doesn't seem any worse than any of the rest of the series (and it's a lot better than the risible "Temple of Doom"). Of course none of them are as "fresh" and "novel" as the original Raiders.
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| robert piepenbrink | 11 Jul 2023 2:27 p.m. PST |
Sigh. So much for the costuming. For what it's worth, I don't think it was "franchise fatigue" or threats to "feeble manhood." It tanked--and it deserved to--for lack of script. The people at the top thought if they brought back Ford and John Williams and spent a ton of money on special effects, they didn't have to do the parts that were actual work for them--theme, plot, character development and dialogue. Generals who hold their enemies in contempt are soon going to be defeated, and producers and directors who despise their audience won't make money for long. Most especially, a film about the end of a character's career should be about legacy--in this case, recovered artifacts, inspired students and successors. Instead, this one all but declared Indy's life futile. I have no idea what Kennedy, Mangold & Co were thinking of. Tacking on an ending completely at odds with the previous two hours and change only highlighted the problem. As for the "strong female lead" as somehow a problem for the male audience, 20th, Drosophila, I don't think the evidence supports you. People who loved and love Princess Leia and Marion Ravenwood don't have problems with that. If Rey and Helena Shaw aren't equally loved, try asking yourself what else is different about them or their presentation. Could it be the reduction of their male counterparts to bad examples and comic relief? But this paints no miniatures. I just wanted to put in a good word for the costume, casting and set people who I thought did a very good job in the opening sequence. I think it's especially important to give praise to people who have done a good job in an otherwise poor production. When a team effort fails, the tragedy is the members of the team who did their parts well. |
 Old Contemptible | 11 Jul 2023 6:22 p.m. PST |
Odd movies are good, even movies are bad. Saw it the other night and it is really good. Especially enjoyed scenes that harken back to earlier movies. |
| 20thmaine | 12 Jul 2023 2:18 a.m. PST |
Ok, just once more for the record. I never said that strong female lead/misogyny was the cause of the failure. I have no empirical evidence for that, and never claimed to have any. I've seen it suggested in reporting that it may be an element, and there is the usual froth from certain parts of the internet but that isn't evidence as such. Never claimed it was. What I actually said was that I hoped that wasn't the reason. I do wonder if they overdid the "this is definitely my last outing as Indy" publicity stuff from Ford, a lot of people might read into that finality that he dies and don't want to see that. Spoiler Alert Spoiler Alert Spoiler Alert he doesn't die Spoiler Alert Spoiler Alert Spoiler Alert. I enjoyed it as a film – it didn't seem so different in tone from e.g. Last Crusade (in fact, it is very like Last Crusade only Indy plays the "father" role and Wombat is the reluctant child). That's a matter of taste anyway, but it didn't seem incapable of selling buckets of popcorn, but seemingly is. That is, I'm led to believe, Show Business. |
| CeruLucifus | 13 Jul 2023 4:29 a.m. PST |
I think it didn't do well because fewer people go out to movie theaters nowadays. When the Internet says a movie "tanked" they mean ticket sales were (much) lower than needed to make back production costs. That's historically an important part of the revenue cycle, but it's also an arbitrary metric, since the audience has no control over how much Hollywood spends to make a movie. Audience rating on Rotten Tomatoes is 88%, which is lower than the first 3 films but still pretty high. Indiana Jones on Rotten Tomatoes: link Probably will do quite well on streaming platforms. |
| robert piepenbrink | 13 Jul 2023 6:05 p.m. PST |
CeruLucifus, It's very curious. The other part of "tanked" is lower initial attendance than expected, and a sharper drop-off over time, neither of which are directly related to production cost, but are related to word of mouth. Frankly, I can't make sense of it: the audience rating is much too high to reconcile with way the seats emptied as soon as word got out. My suspicion is that someone's put his thumb on the scales at Rotten Tomatoes. Possibly more negative audience ratings are being disqualified as some sort of spam or robovoting? 20th, Surely you've noticed that Hollywood's reflex response to a failed movie these days is to insist that they're morally superior to the people who don't like their story. So yes, we've all "seen it suggested" but you're the one who brought the publicity agents' excuse into the conversation. Wear an enemy uniform in the middle of a skirmish, and you take fire. |
| altfritz | 14 Jul 2023 9:13 a.m. PST |
I heard that "He sounded old". I guess CGI and make-up can only do so much. |
| Old Contemptible | 14 Jul 2023 8:54 p.m. PST |
Isn't it a little early to call it a failure? |
| Zephyr1 | 15 Jul 2023 9:35 p.m. PST |
I saw this today, I thought it was very good (nice'n loud boom-booms from the surround sound, too ;-)
As for the female lead, there was a lot of internet talk that she was going to be Jones's "replacement" (I didn't see that, she's a good actress, but I grew to dislike the character she played. YMMV.) "I heard that "He sounded old". I guess CGI and make-up can only do so much." Oh no, in the WW2 flashback he looks as young as he did in Raiders. It was quite impressive… ;-) |
| robert piepenbrink | 16 Jul 2023 5:54 p.m. PST |
OC, I am not a Hollywood accountant, but the guys who do this for a living do a pretty good job of working out total studio revenue from what they take in within the first two weeks. Evidently once you know what the initial receipts were and how fast they're falling off, there's not room for a lot of short-term surprise: maybe in 20 years, something will be a beloved classic, but that won't help anyone at the stockholders' meeting this fall. And the range the money people can "predict with high confidence" won't get Disney/Lucasfilm back the money they blew on this turkey. Hollywood is a business, and if they spent $500 USD million making and promoting this one and get $400 USD back after the theaters get their cut, that's failure. Glad you enjoyed it, but that's different. I own and watch DVDs of two of the great all-time Hollywood money losers. This one will not be joining them. Oh. For what it's worth, I agree with Zephyr1. The CGI and makeup were adequate, but the script wasn't up to the job. I DO know better than to attend movies where four people have writing credit, but I told myself "it's Harrison Ford's last hurrah, and surely after Crystal Skull, he'll carefully vet the script." No such luck. Oh. OC, I think you got the odd/even thing backward--unless you're actually partial to Star Trek V? |
| jgawne | 18 Jul 2023 1:45 p.m. PST |
You only have to go back to "Downfall" |
goes to sea with the Terrain Mat.
