"Austrian Deployment 1809-15" Topic

Does anyone know how the Austrians initially deployed for battle during the period 1809-15? Did they still use Line formations or were they always in battalion masses?

Thanks

This comes from;
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Tactically, the infantry used a 3 rank system, a company forming in this manner on almost all occasions. Battalion movement was usually by the column of companies, i.e. one behind the other, and this formation was used for storming, etc. In a fire-fight, the battalions would fight in line. The 1st (Leib) battalion of a regiment took the right of the line, with the 2nd in the centre, and the 3rd on the left. March step was 95 paces to the minute. All officers from the rank of major upwards were mounted. The infantry was generally well-disciplined, and could manoeuvre well, but the highly developed sub-unit system sometimes found difficulties in broken country.

Also look at this:
link

Cool!

Tom

Lots of divisionmasse, semi autonomous groups of 2 compagnies on sigle coy frontage so 6 ranks but of course, if not closed up , with half a coy space between the two compagnies.

I was under the impression that Karl recommended Bataillonsmassen for initial deployment and using features of terrain for protecting them.

I have to look at Divisonsmassen, I was under the impression they had a half company frontage – so 12 ranks.

here Divisionsmassen formed from a battalion in line to repell cavalry,

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So cool to see you contribute David Hollins!

I know you have had some difficulties from others on this forum, it I wanted to say thank you for all you have contributed over the years. I have read & collected for reference as many of your past posts on the Austrians as I have found on this site.

I for one am eternally grateful to you sir.

Regards

@von Winterfeldt: Superbe plan!

J'aimerais bien connaitre la date de ce plan.
Visiblement, les bataillons d'infanterie possèdent 8 compagnies???? D'où une numérotation des compagnies de 1 à 24.
En 1809, les bataillons autrichiens possédaient 6 compagnies.
Les compagnies étaient numérotées de 1 à 18.

Traduction Google:
@von Winterfeldt: Great plan!

I would like to know the date of this plan.
Obviously, the infantry battalions have 8 companies???? Hence the numbering of companies from 1 to 24.
In 1809 the Austrian battalions had 6 companies.
The companies were numbered from 1 to 18.

@Bernard 1809

La planche est de 1808, on voit un peloton ou un quart de compagnie, avec 6 compagnies par bataillon – 24 pelotons, la masse divisionnaire est formée à 4 demi-compagnies, et nous voyons 3 masses divisionnaires (division ici 2 compagnies)

Le nom autrichien d'un quart de compagnie est "Zug".

So to clarify, by half company frontages, would that mean 6 ranks deep (so a kind of hybrid between line and battalion mass)?

Cheers,
John

Thanks very much David. Very informative.

Cheers,
John

Ok!

Donc, si j'ai bien compris:
Ce plan montre un bataillon qui passe de la formation "Ligne" à la formation "Bataillon masse" si un danger de cavalerie ennemie est annoncé.
Le bataillon autrichien se divise en 3 entités de 2 compagnies/pelotons (ou 1 division ou 8 Zugs).

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Je vous présente maintenant une division (2 compagnies) d'infanterie autrichienne au ratio 1/1.

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Il y a plein d'erreurs: sous-officiers, sapeurs, etc.
C'est juste pour vous montrer la masse.

1807 indeed, I recommend to download

link

This contains plates as well and is a good synopsis

@Bernard 1809

Yes – a Divisionsmasse is formed from a Division, in this context 2 companies, but the front of a Divisonsmasse is not a company width but a half company (or two Züge, that is the plural of Zug, it is Züge, Zugs is bad Anglicism – so what your unit in 1 to 1 shows is not a Divisionmasse, but you could do it.

@von Winterfeldt
Ton lien ne fonctionne pas.

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Il y a plusieurs types de Bataillon Masse:
- Ton exemple formé à partir de la "Ligne".
- La Division Masse formée à partir d'une "Colonne de divisions". Exemple G1. Très rarement utilisée.
- Le Bataillon Masse formé à partir d'une "Colonne de marche". Exemple G2.

the links works well for me, it is a link to google books and shows the original documentation, which I prefer, indeed my example are Divisonsmassen formed from a line . however Divisonsmasse, Bataillonsmassen or Regimentsmassen are all different

Please discard Rotheberg, read the real Regulations

"Please discard Rotheberg, read the real Regulations"
Je voudrais bien, mais ton lien ne s'ouvre pas…

Peux-tu me donner l'adresse URL de ton lien ou le nom complet du livre que je puisse chercher moi-même.

C'est qui Rothenberg/Rotheberg?

maybe this works better

link

Auszug aus dem Exercier Reglement für die k. k. Infanterie vom Jahr 1807 – in case the link doesn't work then type this into the search function of your browser

link

C'est bon!
Merci.

Un extra de 200h par compagnie?????

Le terme "Vize-Korporal" n'apparait pas dans mon schéma d'une compagnie d'infanterie autrichienne, car je parle bien du temps de guerre.

Correspondance entre l'armée autrichienne et l'armée française:
- La fonction d'un "Korporal" correspond à peu près à celle d'un "Sergent" dans l'armée française.
- La fonction d'un "Gefreiter" correspond à peu près à celle d'un "Caporal" dans l'armée française.
Pour faire une correspondance avec l'armée anglaise, je n'en sais strictement rien!

"These 3rd battalions were marched off to Bohemia for further training…"
Pas obligatoirement.
Par exemple: le 1eIR avait son 3e bataillon en Galicie.

Cordialement
Bernard

just check the regulations

Zum ausrückenden streitbaren Stand eines Infanterie – Regiments gehören : 1 Oberst , 1 Oberstlieutenant , 2 Majors , 1 Regiments 3 Bataillons – Adjutanten , 3 Führer , 1 Regiments-Tambour , und pr . Compagnie I Hauptmann oder Capitänlieutenant , I Oberlieutenant , 1 Unterlieutenant , 1 Fähnrich , ( bey den Grenadieren statt diesem der mit Nr. 14 bezeichnete Vice- Corporal ) 1 Feldwebel , 6 wirkliche , 7 Vice – Corporals , 2 Tambours und 1 Zimmermann.

this is peace time footing

Please discard Rotheberg, read the real Regulations

Didn't Rothenberg use the original material in his work?

From the bibliography of Napoleon's Great Adversary: Archduke Charles and the Austrian Army 1792-1814:

-Exercier-Reglement fur die kaiserlich-konigliche Infanterie, Vienna, 1808 on page 256.

What is/are the difference(s) between this regulation and the 1807 version?

1807:

link

1808:

link

It is fascinating to see that the original sources, which are there, are ignored, most likely because the are written in German and faulty secondary ones – only because they are in Anglo Saxon speak are preferred.

I would say sometimes the older style of German is hard for the google translator to read, but still it allows for people like myself who speak English to at least get a basic understanding of French and German sources.

Sadly, the google online versions have terrible pictures. This makes it hard to actually see how the drill is carried out.

So a century of this leads to confirmation bias where readers think the statements are true, because several authors have written/copied the same thing.

Very true, but as MarbotChasseurs write those who are interested even in case they don't speak a foreign language can use translation programs and OCR

Have to look for the podcasts. Best accommodation of painting.
I at least have 1 Austrian I think. GEN Wallmoden is I take it.

Did find them, thanks Dave and been a long time since seen you here

I suspect OCR doesn't cope very well with old "Gothic" German script.

@David Hollins briefly
Nous sommes d'accord!

Vois-tu des erreurs dans mon schéma d'une compagnie d'infanterie autrichienne en 1809 en temps de guerre?

J'ai lu quelque part (je ne me rappelle plus où) que les Gefreiters avaient un signe distinctif sur la tenue.
Des idées sur ce signe?

@von Winterfeldt
"Zum ausrückenden streitbaren Stand eines Infanterie – Regiments gehören : 1 Oberst , 1 Oberstlieutenant , 2 Majors , 1 Regiments 3 Bataillons – Adjutanten , 3 Führer , 1 Regiments-Tambour , und pr . Compagnie I Hauptmann oder Capitänlieutenant , I Oberlieutenant , 1 Unterlieutenant , 1 Fähnrich , ( bey den Grenadieren statt diesem der mit Nr. 14 bezeichnete Vice- Corporal ) 1 Feldwebel , 6 wirkliche , 7 Vice – Corporals , 2 Tambours und 1 Zimmermann."
Là aussi, nous sommes d'accord!
C'est ce que j'ai pris, mais pour le temps de paix.
Mon schéma parle du temps de guerre.

Through about a dozen podcasts, good stuff but can wait until 1805