"1745 Royal Ecossais flag, where is it?" Topic
11 Posts
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 piper909  | 03 Jul 2023 9:05 p.m. PST |
The regimental colors of the Royal Eccossais, a nominally Scots regiment in French service, have been well documented in books about the Jacobite Rebellion of 1745-46. But something I'm still trying to track down is, where are they now, and so how have they come to be so well documented? How were they saved when so many other flags and banners from the Jacobites were lost or destroyed after the failure of the uprising? I've read references to their being "saved" from capture by the British Army after Culloden. So what then? Are they in France today? |
| Vallerotonda | 05 Jul 2023 10:51 a.m. PST |
Is there any evidence or reference that the colours of the Royal Ecossais were ever in Scotland in 1745 ?
If I remember well , not all the regiment was eventually sent ,and the Regiment continued to exist in France .Of those sent . some turned back due to weather conditions and others were intercepted by the British Navy .
If the colours were on one of the ships intercepted they would probably have been consigned to the ocean before the transport lowered its colours , |
| 42flanker | 06 Jul 2023 12:07 a.m. PST |
Would I be right in thinking, 'Royal Ecossais' would not have survived the Revolution? |
| Vallerotonda | 07 Jul 2023 6:33 a.m. PST |
According to Kronoskaf , after benefitting from an influx of recruits after the 45 , the Royale Ecossais was disbanded finally in 1762 and the personnel transferred to Irish regiments .
The source for the design of the 2 colours on Kronoskaf is given as a European Heraldry organisation .The original colours will probably have been taken home by somebody or some associated with the regiment at the time of it's disbandment and mouldered away being lost to history .
The French Revolution was still a long way in the future |
| piper909 | 07 Jul 2023 9:47 a.m. PST |
I was reading this recent book, impeccable scholarship, and the author correctly notes that the colors would have been taken with this regiment, which reached Scotland more or less intact (and was even reinforced by a fresh draft later on). The colors are noted, and also that they were saved from capture (but no details). link This unit is not to be confused with the "Irish Piquets", also in French service, which are also fully detailed in this book. They did NOT take their colors with those detachments sent to Scotland. (But my Jacobite armies have a color anyway, representing hypothetical Irish regiments at full strength, as they were once supposed to be sent.) |
| piper909 | 07 Jul 2023 9:50 a.m. PST |
My not-very-good photo of my Royal Ecossais in line:
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 Dal Gavan | 08 Jul 2023 4:40 a.m. PST |
The original colours will probably have been taken home by somebody or some associated with the regiment at the time of it's disbandment and mouldered away being lost to history It's nearly a certainty. As Riehn said "What was lost was saved". Some flags lost in battle have survived as trophies, but the others either rotted away in churches and stately homes, were burned or buried under the regiment's parade ground (which I don't think ever happened, but is mentioned in a couple of books) or were laid up in arsenals. Those laid up in arsenals and public buildings either rotted or, as with the Prussian flags in the Zeughaus, were bombed and destroyed in WWII. Then there's those destroyed in a fit of pique, such as the trophies in les Invalides, which were burned on Napoleon's orders in 1814 as France's enemies marched on Paris. |
| Lilian | 08 Jul 2023 2:13 p.m. PST |
this last action had nothing to with an eccentric sudden fit of pique, it is only the usual military traditions and laws of war, a flag must not be taken, yours as well as those taken from the enemy they can be burned even for others reasons, in april 1792 a decree was taken to burn all the French regimental flags being replaced by another new tricolour model
the same was apply to the recent 60 flags of the battalions of the National Guard of Paris raised in 1789 all this vexillological historical heritage has gone up in smoke like the 1417 flags of 1814 |
| Dal Gavan | 09 Jul 2023 2:19 a.m. PST |
Lilian, as you say potential war trophies- drums, musical instruments, flags, trumpet banners, batons, etc- were destroyed to prevent capture by an enemy. What were destroyed in 1814 were included war trophies- captured by the French army, either on the battlefield or from the arsenals of a defeated enemy. The only time since mediaeval times, that I know of, when war trophies were deliberately destroyed is in 1814. All the authors I've read describe the destruction as being done out of spite, anger or panic. If you have evidence to refute those authors then I'd be more than happy to see it. Yes, it was a lot of military vexillological heritage and could possibly answer a lot of questions, if the flags had been preserved. Not all the trophies were destroyed. Photos from Les Invalides in the 1930's show four three Prussian flags dating from the period 1742-1806. However, they disappeared during or just before WWII- I'm guessing they were probably looted by the Germans, but it is just a guess. |
| Lilian | 09 Jul 2023 3:05 a.m. PST |
I don't understand why to find behind that a so-called panic or another feeling as explanation other than the sadness of the Veterans Invalids to see this stake, it is rather a great ignorance from such authors concerning the military to follow the usual laws of war, it was ordered and prepared by Serurier failing to be able to evacuate them because it would be a great dishonor and infamy that such trophies would be taken
link among the numerous accusations against Bazaine in 1870 pointed the great dishonor that all the regimental flags were not burned in Metz in contradiction with the laws and customs of war despite the Marshall had ordered to apply such measure it remains flags because they were not all in the Invalides but located in others places, 110 Spanish British Portuguese from the Ministry of War and 54 Austrians from Ulm and Austerlitz kept in the Senate, then gathered in the Invalides after 1815 if the picture concerns the years 1930' these Prussian flags can be taken in 1870 or 1914-1918,
the Invalides still show today a picture of a prussian flag of 1806, unidentified regiment, but in a worst condition than them in the picture below
the flags are something very hard to save, even those of the 20th century suffer from the time
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| Dal Gavan | 09 Jul 2023 4:50 p.m. PST |
Thanks for the link, Lilian. I can't read French very well (like most Anglophone Australians I'm basically monolingual), but I will work it out. I also didn't know that there were trophies kept in the Senate and Ministry. That explains the surviving artefacts, so thanks. The old soldiers would have been worried about having their flags captured/looted as trophies, as had happened in most European states over the last few centuries. That was considered to be a proper collection of the spoils of war and burning/destroying them to prevent capture as accepted. However I got the impression that the destruction of war trophies and similar relics, to prevent their repatriation, seems to have been an entirely different matter and went against the customs of the times- hence the negative language used. I knew about the trophies from the Franco-Prussian War and also the flags captured in 1914. The flags to which I was referring were all cavalry flags (or may only have been two flags- one dragoon and one kürassiere) and dated from the wars from 1757 to 1806: 1. a 1742 model (according to descriptions with the early, slimmer eagle, not the 1798 "plump eagle") Prussian kürassiere Regimentsstandarte, unfortunately unidentified. It was probably one of those captured at Maxen in 1759 (there's no record of the French capturing any of those flags in the Seven Years War, and by the Revolutionary Wars they had all been replaced). Some of the trophies captured at Maxen were presented to the sovereigns of Austria's allies and deserving generals (which is how a flag from the Schönaich-Carolath Kürassiere Regiment ended up in a guild hall in Ghent). There was another photo that may have been the same flag, but according to descriptions I've read the resolution, etc, make it hard to decide. 2. an 1802 model "square" Dragoon Regimentsstandarte (so from DR Nr13 or Nr14) which had to have been captured before 1807. It's distinguished by the date of issue being embroidered on the flag, but the existing photo is a close up of the centre, showing the date. There is also a photo of another, post-Frederick II flag that looks similar to the flag in the close up, but descriptions don't mention the date. It may be another flag, though all the 1803 flags had the dates on them. It's a pity they didn't have high-resolution digital cameras in the 1930s. :-( |
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paints brigs for the British fleet.