"Controversy at Museum of the American Revolution" Topic

"Don't any of you guys have any miniatures to paint?"

I am currently in the process of painting up a tavern serving girl Robert. This is just a distraction while the paint is drying.

I wonder if you scrolled farther enough down. I might not use the word 'aberrant' but much of the content selected is graphic to say the least, particularly -and quite literally- when in comic book form. Mileage will of course vary but I am pretty broad minded and I wonder what place such material has in a school library.

I think we are talking about different things. The learning guides had nothing in comic form -- at best it had a list of resources. It also had a long section on parental notification – which was incorrectly summarised as 'no parental notification needed'.

Some of the books are strange, and I wonder why they are in a school library. But again, they are not in elementary school libraries. All I am asking is that people get facts straight.

Also, I cant wait for the TMP thread about mixed linen and wool garments.

They are definitely in middle school libraries.

I see we are not going to be able to find any common ground on this.

Is that what you're interested in, a compromise? What would a Moms for Liberty compromise look like?

Don't any of you guys have any miniatures to paint? Should I send you some of mine?

Funny you should ask. This thread has inspired a post apocalyptic gaming scenario where a library staff armed only with with detention guns are trying to stave off irate rioters. While posting on here, I painted up a few dozen soccer mom zombies, some book cases and a some oil drums with fires. All I need now is a figure with a brush mustache to serve as a general and voila!

Yes, the compromise would be for the alphabets to do and to be whatever they please, without involving children.

Yes, the compromise would be for the alphabets to do and to be whatever they please, without involving children.

This is some serious obfuscation.

As far as this group's demands are concerned, there is no compromise.Moms for Liberty represents nothing less than imposing their viewpoint on everyone else. This is fascism.

There are questions about what the group's mission is really about, what organizations they have ties to and who is financing them. It's concerning that some people are willing to dismiss AH quotes and accept everything Mom's for Liberty purport to represent on the surface because they get excited about their "principles".

To the extent that someone keeps bleating about what this all has to do with history, the answer is it is compromising for an American history museum specializing in American ideals and principles to sponsor an event for fascists.

Nope NOTHING to do with history. Also it's a private museum. But bleat on.

"Fascists" You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Inigo Montoya. 😂

As you wish

"Censorship, the suppression of words, images, or ideas that are "offensive," happens whenever some people succeed in imposing their personal political or moral values on others. Censorship can be carried out by the government as well as private pressure groups. Censorship by the government is unconstitutional."

So, when leftist librarians succeed in "imposing their personal political or moral values on others." that's okay, but when a group of moms rally and push back, that's censorship?

"It occurs to me that these Moms first failed to get their way with school boards and then, rather than take their "L", decided that it was because the woke or communist or whatever crowd had taken over so they had a right to organize in the name of decency. Doesnt that go against Mr Bunkermeister's assertion that the Majority should rule?"

Yes, they absolutely have that right. Then they started winning elections and school boards got fired and replaced. That's how a republic works.

"Also, unless I'm mistaken, librarians dont usually organize with other libraries to exclude books based on content "

Yes they do, it's called the American Library Association. They often refuse to allow certain books based on what they find acceptable. Look at Kirk Cameron's attempts to have story time with Christian based books. He had to fight to get access and it took government intervention and public outcry to get it. Yet no librarians said anything about 'dragtime story hours'

"Thus, if a government bans websites or books and tells you that they are still available somewhere, it isnt censorship? The Nazis burned books but they were still available in the UK, did they have a right to claim that they weren't banning books?"

Facial argument. Germany and the UK were different countries. By your argument it would be acceptable to have holocaust denier books, pro-Nazi books, and pornography in elementary school libraries. And the last is part of what this argument is over.

"There's some irony here because Moms for Liberty claim they are trying to protect their children from being brainwashed by transgender folk while using a quote from a man who literally was brainwashing people's children."

Yes, they are arguing that the other side is using his tactics.

"You know, you're right. What was I thinking? Your average mom probably quotes AH about 10 times a day. I myself quoted him about three times this morning. In fact, i spend a lot of time looking for non Nazi quotes of his to use."

APDC – excellent job at not actually answering the question asked! Well done!

"What about them is about Liberty?

The fact they're organizing, meeting, and getting people to vote their way? Sounds like how our system is supposed to work.

"I know where the quote comes from. Apparently, she claims she didnt. Poor thing, probably hasnt read an actual book in a decade. Some behind the scenes guy fed her that quote."

Excellent point, or rather deflection. After all, when you can't make a cogent argument against someone's position, just insult them.

"Like Nick said, the majority of those books seemed to have been hunted down in High school libraries. This mischaracterization that little childrens are being subjected to this in class is dishonest to stir panic."

Ah, a straw for APDC to grasp! So your argument is now, "Sure, pornography is okay if it's in a high school library." At least judging by your above post. I will note that a lot of the newer school campuses around here will have elementary, middle, and high schools on the same campus. And, they share a library.

"If some of you are so concerned about what young people might be exposed to in library books…what the heck do you think they can (and do) access on their computers and phones?? The horse has already left the barn, guys."

So we should just throw our hands in the air and surrender? No, we should do all we can to protect our children.

"Don't any of you guys have any miniatures to paint? Should I send you some of mine?"

LOL

Doc, I believe the term 'fascist', in this context, means "I cannot make a cogent argument against their position." I've seen it used in this same context by actual fascists such as Antifa and BLM.

DJackson +1's 🙂

Dn J, yes and yes.

So, when leftist librarians succeed in "imposing their personal political or moral values on others." that's okay, but when a group of moms rally and push back, that's censorship?

Who are these leftist Librarians running amok? And why are there so many of them, are righties not interested in becoming librarians?

Yes, they absolutely have that right. Then they started winning elections and school boards got fired and replaced. That's how a republic works.

I didnt say they didnt have this right. Mr Bunkermeister said people should follow majority rule. Moms for Liberty got shot down via majority rule and decided not to accept it.

Here is what Mr Bunkermeister said:

Yes Bill N that's how it works. We petition our government for what we want and majority rules.

Some will be disappointed and some will be happy.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek

Except that when disappointed, Moms for Liberty think that the fight's just getting started. You need to ask Mr Bunkermeister for a clarification. Especially in light of the fact that he seems to have posted a contradictory point of view on majorities vs minorities. Maybe like you, he feels that majority rules when he likes the majority? Again, I asked him for clarification but he couldnt be reached for comment…we'll see.

"Also, unless I'm mistaken, librarians dont usually organize with other libraries to exclude books based on content "

dnJackson: Yes they do, it's called the American Library Association. They often refuse to allow certain books based on what they find acceptable. Look at Kirk Cameron's attempts to have story time with Christian based books. He had to fight to get access and it took government intervention and public outcry to get it. Yet no librarians said anything about 'dragtime story hours'

I checked their site and they are against censorship. They claim that the amount of books being censored is expanding greatly due to groups like Moms for Liberty. ala.org/advocacy/bbooks

They dont seem to have prevented Kirk Cameron's books from being in the library, just didnt want to give him lots of slots to read "bible" stories to children that included a lot of anti-gay language.

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Your inaccuracies are glaring. If you have some data put it forward. Otherwise, I accept your apology.

Excellent point, or rather deflection. After all, when you can't make a cogent argument against someone's position, just insult them.

Wait, someone else said something like that. i dont have to justify any response to someone who quotes AH to promote their viewpoint.

Incidentally, youre defending someone who retracted and apologized for that statement, and who condemned by her own organization as making an inexcusable reference to Hitler. What are you defending here?

And while we are on the subject, I saw you and several others say the SPLC is a "Leftist" organization. I dont know that this is true but since you're such a lover of freedom, why would that matter? You think only organizations that you like get a voice? Did SPLC put those words in that lady's mouth? I didnt think you have to be a lefty to be outraged that an organization is using Hitler to get its message across.

Here ya go, from the Moms of Liberty:

We condemn Adolf Hitler and his dark place in human history," the statement read, more than 80 years after Hitler and his Nazi regime implemented a plan to exterminate European Jews. "We should not have quoted him in our newsletter and we express our deepest apology."

Historical experts and people just casually aware of the atrocities committed by Hitler briefly agreed that "We should not have quoted him in our newsletter" is arguably one of the funniest sentences ever written. That was until the national Moms for Liberty Twitter account tweeted about the situation and wrote: "The chapter shouldn't have quoted Hitler without condemning him at the same time."

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Thus I dont know what position you think they were making but they seem to have realized it was an appalling blunder.

The more you read about it, the worse it gets. I dont know how any of you are trying to defend this.

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If you think anyone pushing back on Moms for Liberty is partisan then consider the evidence you dont seem to want to mention that the group is backed, funded and allied with some unsavory characters like the Proud Boys.

Also this lady:

Publix heiress Julie Fancelli continues to talk through her money, making a $50,000 USD contribution to Moms for Liberty

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Those drag events are mostly at non library venues.

Ah, a straw for APDC to grasp! So your argument is now, "Sure, pornography is okay if it's in a high school library." At least judging by your above post. I will note that a lot of the newer school campuses around here will have elementary, middle, and high schools on the same campus. And, they share a library.

We dont know if that document Nick posted from the Mom's site is true and accurate or not. We do know that the group has some honesty and transparency problems. I guess you're not interested in investigating that? Just accept that they're some bible lovin moms who wanna do it for the kids?

And those were the worst books and venue they came up with, they didnt want to mention that they're trying to ban thousands of other titles like Brave New World and large numbers of books dealing with Black American issues.

They look like a Trojan Horse group using a few shocking titles to get people to vote them in but they're not telling people the truth that they are basically targeting any books that deal with gay and Lesbian content, minority issues and a host of other classic books that their backers find threatening for their own reasons that have little to do with "decency".

Doc, I believe the term 'fascist', in this context, means "I cannot make a cogent argument against their position." I've seen it used in this same context by actual fascists such as Antifa and BLM.

Wait, I get that the Anti-Fascists are actually Fascists but I thought BLM were Marxists? So hard to keep your cogent arguments straight.

I don't know what the OP was thinking here re: history.

This is the kind of thing that made me check into my own mental health DH.

An American Revolution history museum, private but open to the public. No idea what those women are doing there no matter what they call themselves. They give me the creeps. No idea how accessible those comic books are via the education system. They give me the creeps also. Facists, Antifa, BLM, the usual. Lions, tigers, bears. Someday there will be a Museum of Culture Wars for this stuff. I hope. Because it needs a home. Or maybe I need a home.

Mixed linen and wool garments! I'm in for some facts Nick! We can talk 18th century uniforms…

Again not history.

After all this happens, the museum and its name will still be there and it will still be about the American revolution. The only thing that will change that, is a counter protest by those who do not support them that ends in violence and destruction.

And How would that look? Violence fostered upon helpless mothers. That might actually look like something out of the 30's in another country. 😧 🙂

doc mcb: "Fascists" You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

I know what it means. Unfortunately, it is a tactic that conservative extremist groups want to deploy because while they want understanding from everyone else they have no tolerance for any viewpoint but their own.

Case in point, White Supremacist protestors showed up at a drag queen event with firearms.

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That's not peaceful protest. It is militancy. I dont think the Moms for Liberty calling their tour "Joyful Warriors" is an accident either. The fact that they began as anti-maskers and then graduated into threatening school boards and teachers puts them in an extremist activist bucket.

Tortorella: An American Revolution history museum, private but open to the public. No idea what those women are doing there no matter what they call themselves.

It's an attempt to legitimize themselves as a mainstream, ALL American group rather than the hate group they look like they actually are. As you can see, that sort of false patriotism to disguise violent extremism does dupe some people.

Maybe you saw above that someone equated Moms of Liberty trying to ban thousands of books with a few libraries not wanting to allow an extremist, hate mongering performance artist from having a reading session for his book. That inability to evaluate degrees would in turn to suggest struggles with understanding the difference between what someone says they are vs what they actually are.

Again not history.

After all this happens, the museum and its name will still be there and it will still be about the American revolution. The only thing that will change that, is a counter protest by those who do not support them that ends in violence and destruction.

Changing names is of historical importance to you but history isnt primarily about naming things, it is about people and events. The Moms of Liberty event is current history.

Perhaps your enthusiasm form the organization has clouded you opinion. I wonder how you would feel if it were ISIS speaking at the museum advocating the destruction of the USA? There are many who would consider that an historical event.

Or, like when a confederate flag was carried in the capitol building, something that the CSA was never able to accomplish. That is an historical event. And yet, no names were changed, after cleaning up the residue left by the rioters, the building remained and was still about government.

And How would that look? Violence fostered upon helpless mothers. That might actually look like something out of the 30's in another country. 😧 🙂

It would seem that it is actually Moms for Liberty who are encouraging violence and joining hands with dangerous anti-government extremist groups. Just because a topic makes someone uncomfortable or they dont agree with the way it's going doesnt make it unsuitable as history.

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Nope .. still private. If the museum allows any group to speak there, they can do what they want. Be they left, right or center.

I had never heard of the Mothers group until a few of you started ranting about them and seeing them under your beds and in your closets.

Still no relationship to history.

Did see this two days ago on the web. Did any of the offended in these posts, join the protest? Seems like you would want to express your outrage where your voices could be heard.

Subject: Transgender Pride Activist Manhandled by Police While Waving Pride Flag at Philadelphia Moms for Liberty Event (VIDEO)

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Nope .. still private. If the museum allows any group to speak there, they can do what they want. Be they left, right or center.

What point are you trying to make?

I had never heard of the Mothers group until a few of you started ranting about them and seeing them under your beds and in your closets.

And yet it seems to bother you. Suddenly, you find yourself concerned with posts over "history" with a self serving carve out for all those military base name changes you disapprove of.

Did see this two days ago on the web. Did any of the offended in these posts, join the protest? Seems like you would want to express your outrage where your voices could be heard.

Subject: Transgender Pride Activist Manhandled by Police While Waving Pride Flag at Philadelphia Moms for Liberty Event (VIDEO)

What I see is an appalling bit of police brutality on a peaceful protestor. With an approving comment by Charlie Kirk one of the nation's premier hate mongers and white supremacist par excellence and all showcased on the gateway pundit which is basically a low brow version of a right wing misinformation machine.

It syncs with what a I said above about an inability to assess degrees of harm. Waving a flag around isnt the same as multiple fire-armed men in combat gear. And if someone thinks it is, it explains why they struggle with the ability to accurately assess situations.

Look at some of the comments from the Gateway Pundit's commentators:

Chesapeake

It's about time these idiots got arrested. Had one of the moms swung an American flag around to disrupt one of their events they would have beaten her to a pulp.

Emron McCabe HumphreyPlowjogger 2 days ago

It's about time. Transterrorists deserve a lot worse.

Crash

Zip tie his balls to his ankles and make him waddle to the the police car.

blondsktr17

I've been w8in' for the police to do sumthin'…

So far they've jus been passivly watchin' the freaks ..

I wanna 👀 them body-slammed…hahahaha…

New son 2 days ago

Lesbians = PERVERTS.
Gays = PERVERTS.
Bisexuals = PERVERTS.
Trans = PERVERTS.
Queers = PERVERTS.

Gee, I can't help noticing a pattern here! If those PERV-ULENT FREAKS want to dig and explore their own distinctive types of perversion, let 'em, but I have A LOT better things to do, so they'd better keep their nauseating perversions out of my path!

NoMoreGore gman 2 days ago

I like how that cop used a knee to the face to get control of that nut. Not much fight after that.

These are some over the top comments which I would hope you wouldnt approve of.

For a guy who never heard of the Moms of Liberty, you certainly seem to keep your ear to pavement about them. But it does underscore that if you read a site dedicated to hate and misinformation, there will eventually be contamination.

Hate, shmate. Just more "everyone who disagrees with me is Hitler" going on.

And it's not getting any better.

Hello 35th! Agree, not history, although I wish it was – as in over with. This is tabloid content only fit for cable news, the swamp zone of info. The Sons of Liberty would not want anything to do with the Moms for Liberty. You don't need your nagging Mom on your case when you are hanging around Boston doing….stuff.

APDC everything you accuse others of doing, you are guilty of in spades. 😂

As I also said. I don't care if ANTIFA, CARE, LBGQT, Mothers against drunk driving, the American Communist party or the Boy Scouts, meet there. It's private and nothing I can do about it but those options listed below.

I really don't care one way or the other for the group. Would not donate to them, would not attend their rallies or meetings. Agree that I don't want "gender queer" or any other pornography exposed to children in a taxpayer funded school, at least not until they are of legal age in their own states.

We can only assume by your stances in this TMP post, that you DO approve. Are we wrong?

" What point are you trying to make?"

One more time, Again… it is a private institution, NOT PUBLIC. I nor you nor anyone else funds it with taxpayer money. Your recourses are to complain to the museum. Not go to the museum. Don't contribute to the museum. Don't donate items to the museum. Go join the counter protesters (they might welcome you. Take a picture and post it for all of us to see.) Are you doing any of these, if so which, so others who might agree with you can join your crusade?

Lastly as you have proven in every post, as has everyone else, this is a POLITICAL post and not a HISTORICAL one.

APDC everything you accuse others of doing, you are guilty of in spades. 😂

Even for you this makes no sense. It's astonishing that you dont absorb how putting down a link to a misinformation site for a white supremacist to cheer on police violence against a peaceful protester is a major comment on why your opinion on what is and isnt history cant be taken at face value. Incidentally, this is not so called "left wing labeling", Charlie Kirk actually likes being called a white supremacist.

And somehow you thought that that link makes Moms of Liberty and Patriot Front look good and the counter protestors look bad?

As I also said. I don't care if ANTIFA, CARE, LBGQT, Mothers against drunk driving, the American Communist party or the Boy Scouts, meet there. It's private and nothing I can do about it but those options listed below.

It's being public or private makes no difference to either the social or historical issues. Perhaps from a 1st Amendment pov, to the extent that if you think a public museum cant refuse Moms for Liberty access, then you must also agree that public schools shouldn't be forced to remove books.

I really don't care one way or the other for the group. Would not donate to them, would not attend their rallies or meetings. Agree that I don't want "gender queer" or any other pornography exposed to children in a taxpayer funded school, at least not until they are of legal age in their own states.

We can only assume by your stances in this TMP post, that you DO approve. Are we wrong?

Well, presumably the taxpayers spoke and told the Moms for Liberty to get lost which they decided not to accept. Thus, the minority of taxpayers seem to think their tax money counts more than the majority.

If you dont care about the issue, why are you here? There are thousands of other threads to enjoy yourself on. Although there is a parallel here that an idea's existence can bother an intolerant group who then think they have to eradicate it completely.

You really cant assume I stand for the books because Ive been trying to talk the objective issues and determining who and what is truly behind Moms for Liberty. I admit that there is so much emotional push back to ignore red flags about the group and viscerally support them automatically against imagine "enemies" that we really haven't been able to explore the Free Speech issues much.

However, if you want to make it personal that's your choice. I dont think you realize how extreme your positions are and how hard it is for you to see a middle-ground. What makes that the more comic is you consistently claim partisanship on the part of others. If you dont believe in objectivity, then why would you worry about bias?

But, again, fair enough, if you have to give voice to my preferences, go ahead.

However, it should then also be fair that I should ask if my assumption based on your behavior is that you support AH quoting institutions, police brutality, extremist misinformation sites, violence against peaceful protestors when you disapprove of their viewpoints or lifestyles, and censorship of thousands of harmless books in order to get at a few books you dont like and which no one is making anyone read.

Am I wrong?

One more time, Again… it is a private institution, NOT PUBLIC. I nor you nor anyone else funds it with taxpayer money. Your recourses are to complain to the museum. Not go to the museum. Don't contribute to the museum. Don't donate items to the museum. Go join the counter protesters (they might welcome you. Take a picture and post it for all of us to see.) Are you doing any of these, if so which, so others who might agree with you can join your crusade?

Nah, all I did was suggest that people not take Moms of Liberty at face value because they emotionally like what they think they stand for. When I pointed out that they quoted AH, I found it disturbing that some doubled, tripled and quadrupled down on it not being a big deal. Apparently, some believe that renaming military bases from Confederates to Americans is an outrage and a travesty but quoting AH is perfectly acceptable. This would be an interesting development of American attitudes towards "Liberty".

And that, my dear, fellow poster, is history in the making.

The more upset you become, the longer your posts become, the more they resemble a shotgun blast and the less coherent, more wild eyed and more accusatory they become.

You are a far..far..far left wing galaxy away from being middle of the road. 😂

And it's still not history, it's just personal politics. 😉

Better check those closets again and under that bed, those evil mothers might be hiding there. 😱

The more upset you become, the longer your posts become, the more they resemble a shotgun blast and the less coherent, more wild eyed and more accusatory they become.

Not at all, I am enjoying myself thoroughly. However, I understand your stance and reluctance to engage. I accept your apology and I wish you the best.

You are a far..far..far left wing galaxy away from being middle of the road. 😂

Considering the source, this is quite a badge of honor. It also means Ive been very successful keeping what I actually think confidential. Those old school debating muscles need exercising every now and then. I'm sure you remember those days

And it's still not history, it's just personal politics. 😉

You've been saying this a lot. It's a blend I suppose. 1776's DOI seemed to have an element of politics to it as well as the entire Revolutionary War.

In any case, the forum standard isnt that the thread has to be 100% History, It's:

For discussion of anything related to the American Revolution/War of American Independence.

I would say the Museum of the American Revolution is related to both of those; the American Revolution as well as the War of American independence.

Incidentally, have you seen their gift shop? You can get some sweet merchandise:

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Ooh, a red flag tote for the Moms!

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No apologies.

But enjoy your shopping. I'm sure the museum will appreciate it and it will help to preserve actual history.

I don't mind children being taught about safeguarding themselves from grooming mentally I'll perverts.

A nice looking museum! Thanks for the links. Appears to be very well done, balanced.

Also it's a very well endowed non-profit, pays no taxes. Funds come from a variety of sources, including government and wealthy patrons. All good. Much as we respect the spirit of the Revolution, and the tumultuous times it created, I think a museum is not a great place for rallies involving current political/cultural grievances. Learning, reflection, respect for the patrons who come to hear the story. Hard to match the rally/meeting to the museum's mission statement. Non profits don't do much politics.

A post on this board about the museum, without the latest culture hoopla, on any topic, would have fitted here nicely, IMO. There are a lot of other places for the group in question to go and exercise their rights.

Agree with you entirely Tortorella.

Hard to match the rally/meeting to the museum's mission statement.

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It's hard to determine what the Mom's of Liberty's ultimate mission is supposed to be; it has morphed quite a bit. It is alarming that a group that encourages confrontations and threats against School Board members, teachers, and parents who dont see things their way would characterize a protest by people they call mentally ill "A hate filled siege".

What other reaction did they expect to get?

This is also interesting:

At the museum, I noticed a staffer looking so angry that I wondered if she had somehow snuck into the reception to make trouble; I kept my eyes on her the entire evening.

One wonders if Mom's of Liberty will next try to ban certain looks on people's faces. It's interesting. I believe Cromwell and the Puritans outlawed or fined smiling/laughter in the UK; one wonders if they drew inspiration from that period.

Non profits don't do much politics.

This is not the case.

A nice looking museum! Thanks for the links. Appears to be very well done, balanced.

It does look like a very good, well tended museum with a lot of interesting Revolutionary presentations. Some of them are on video and I intend to watch a few.

Thanks to Brechtel for bringing attention to the museum's rich Revolutionary history offerings.

I see they even carry Troiani's book:

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A post on this board about the museum, without the latest culture hoopla, on any topic, would have fitted here nicely, IMO. There are a lot of other places for the group in question to go and exercise their rights.

I think it is as good to see what groups are trying to hijack the nation's collective heritage for their own selfish motives; political, social, revisionary, what have you.

Perhaps it is harder to see this because of both the site and the cause but for instance if civil war battlefields were used by some foreign, "leftist" or fringe hate group to protest and avow hate for America, I'm pretty sure it would suddenly become an issue of "History" on here.

And then there is the issue of the museum being duped by the faux name of the group. They seem to have thought MLF was a patriotic, historical group.

Perhaps if the shoe were on the other foot and an anti-religious group rented out a room in the Museum of the Revolutionary War to condemn religion and especially Christianity as a mental disorder, it would drive home the inappropriateness of the venue for the message and indicate a desire on the part of the speaking group to gain notoriety off of another institution's image. And i think it is important to have a proper national image; to correct the things we got wrong and enhance the things that make our country great.

+1 Au Pas…

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Reading all of this with dismay. So, which side vandalized the museum and destroyed property?

Have the police caught him yet?

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"PHILADELPHIA—The Museum of the American Revolution was vandalized the night before it was to host Moms for Liberty, a parental rights advocacy organization, after several other organizations had condemned the museum for hosting the group.

Vandals spray-painted "F— You" on a mural of George Washington crossing the Delaware River, the plaque commemorating the event, and broke the window in a door leading into the museum during Wednesday night or early morning Thursday."

"The defacement of the American Revolution Museum follows outrage from leftist activists after Moms for Liberty announced it would be holding an opening event for the annual summit at the museum.

In a tweet, Moms for Liberty said it was "devastated" about the vandalism:

We are devastated to see [the Museum of the American Revolution] targeted last night by hateful vandals who broke windows and destroyed historical symbols of our country's freedom.

The core of a free republic is to allow for the peaceful discussion of different ideas.

We pray for peace in the days ahead."

A shame this happened, and a shame that the museum felt that this event fit their mission statement. It was just not the right place for these folks, IMO. But the vandalism is criminal.

In defense of history…. I believe I read that these Moms invited a speaker to the Museum of the American Revolution who once stated that George Washington's army manned the air, took over the airports, and rammed the ramparts during the Revolution, apparently continued to fight right through to the War of 1812. This too would have been fine elsewhere, but for this venue, perhaps not.

Did they not hold their meeting elsewhere in the end?

"Who are these leftist Librarians running amok? And why are there so many of them, are righties not interested in becoming librarians?"

That was already answered by two of us, The American Library Association. There probably are conservative librarians, just as there are conservative teachers in college. However they are heavily outnumbered by liberals.

"Moms for Liberty got shot down via majority rule and decided not to accept it."

Actually, when covid hit and kids were learning from home people started paying attention to what was being taught. Suddenly the school board elections became important. People started paying attention to the school board elections and when those school boards ignored parents, they started getting fired.

"Your inaccuracies are glaring. If you have some data put it forward. Otherwise, I accept your apology"

I have nothing to apologize for. Did you read the story you linked to? It contains this line, among others; "Fox reported that the publisher was told by the library official, "You can fill out the form to reserve space, to run the program in our space — but we won't run your program." The same library allowed 'Dragtime Story Hour"

"Wait, someone else said something like that. i dont have to justify any response to someone who quotes AH to promote their viewpoint."

Again, deflection.

"And while we are on the subject, I saw you and several others say the SPLC is a "Leftist" organization. I dont know that this is true but since you're such a lover of freedom, why would that matter?"

APDC, I believe this was explained to you repeatedly, just in this thread. The SPLC condemns only right wing groups. They refuse to call BLM and ANTIFA hate groups, despite those groups calling for the destruction of the US and death of police officers. Since they won't condemn hate on the left they cannot be taken seriously.

"Wait, I get that the Anti-Fascists are actually Fascists but I thought BLM were Marxists? So hard to keep your cogent arguments straight."

APDC, your ignorance is showing. Fascism is an outgrowth of communism. Similar politics, same tactics.

"Maybe you saw above that someone equated Moms of Liberty trying to ban thousands of books with a few libraries not wanting to allow an extremist, hate mongering performance artist from having a reading session for his book.'

Again, if you can't make an actual argument, just insult your opponent.

"I wonder how you would feel if it were ISIS speaking at the museum advocating the destruction of the USA?"

False equivalency. Moms for Liberty hasn't beheaded anyone, set anyone on fire, or forced women into sex slavery.

"What I see is an appalling bit of police brutality on a peaceful protestor."

You have an expansive definition of 'brutality'. That subject ran away from the officer at the start of the video and when he resisted being taken into custody the officer took him to the ground. No brutality involved.

It would be helpful if you highlighted what others have said in your postings. Just a request…

"Who are these leftist Librarians running amok? And why are there so many of them, are righties not interested in becoming librarians?"

That was already answered by two of us, The American Library Association. There probably are conservative librarians, just as there are conservative teachers in college. However they are heavily outnumbered by liberals.

This viewpoint that people are either "Lefties" or "Righties" makes you sound like an ideologue. You said that this Librarian Association were actively and collectively censoring books. However, you have provided no evidence that the ALA is censoring books. Actually, it appears to be quite the opposite, the ALA appears to fight censorship of books.

Granting a reading session is a different category from a library carrying a book. Additionally, one librarian allegedly saying something on the phone that they shouldn't have isn't the same as the ALA releasing an official statement.

Additionally, there isn't a requirement for the library to explain why they give another group a reading slot, especially when there are so few.

In any case, as you point out, Cameron got to have his reading time. By this measure and assuming you approve of this result, MLF should be stopped from removing books from libraries. Is this what you believe?

"Your inaccuracies are glaring. If you have some data put it forward. Otherwise, I accept your apology"

I have nothing to apologize for. Did you read the story you linked to? It contains this line, among others; "Fox reported that the publisher was told by the library official, "You can fill out the form to reserve space, to run the program in our space — but we won't run your program." The same library allowed 'Dragtime Story Hour"

I did read the story. The statement may or may not be true and if true, I don't support it but I don't know what that has to do with yours and doc's assertion that the ALA regularly censors books. This library carried his book. Do you have any evidence that the ALA regularly censors books? If not, then you are making a false allegation and you should apologize.

Meanwhile, MLF is actively trying to censor thousands of books.

Incidentally, Kirk Cameron says that LGBTQ+ people are in the wrong and that gay marriage is immoral. He uses his reading times to dissuade children from the evils of homosexuality. In contrast, to my knowledge, dragtime story hours don't put down conservative Christians. The content, viewpoint and approach are quite different which is probably why a librarian didn't like it. That's if Cameron's anecdotal story about why he was denied reading slots at libraries is true.

It appears that a not so talented author and his press agent are trying to spice up and promote his book with tales of being persecuted because he is a conservative christian. Further, it is a fiction outside of the mind of conservative christians that dragtime stories (or whatever) are the natural enemy of christianity. That sets the table for a ready belief that the reason Cameron was denied a time slot is more because the libraries are pro drag and anti christian rather than the possibility that there are both thousands of authors who could read their books at a library every day and that Cameron might just be second rate. But, his is a tactic which I admit does work repeatedly on paranoid mindsets.

link

"Wait, someone else said something like that. i dont have to justify any response to someone who quotes AH to promote their viewpoint."

Again, deflection.

Deflection of what? Just to stop you right here, A group that quotes AH is a hate group. I do not need the SPLC to tell me this. I see that you don't quite like this, but it is non-negotiable.

"And while we are on the subject, I saw you and several others say the SPLC is a "Leftist" organization. I dont know that this is true but since you're such a lover of freedom, why would that matter?"

APDC, I believe this was explained to you repeatedly, just in this thread. The SPLC condemns only right wing groups. They refuse to call BLM and ANTIFA hate groups, despite those groups calling for the destruction of the US and death of police officers. Since they won't condemn hate on the left they cannot be taken seriously.

If you look at the world as an "us" vs "them", then you shouldn't be surprised that an organization that condemns groups you favor is "on the other side" of the political spectrum. However, if that is the case, then you don't believe in objectivity. If you don't believe in objectivity, then SPLC's behavior shouldn't surprise you and they would necessarily target right wing groups. However that doesn't mean they are not still "hate" groups.

"Whataboutism" about other groups is, what would you call it? ah, a "deflection". People and groups should be judged on their own behavior. That's a principle conservatives believe in.

Alternatively, if you do believe in whataboutism, I assume this defense is available to everyone, and not just MLF, and thus both ANTIFA and BLM can also relieve themselves of accountability by using it. That is a result you approve of, right?

SPLC does explain their reasoning about who they place on their hate list but if you think that the concept of hate is partisan then the right should have their own version of SPLC and be conducting a thriving business in suing the many Left Wing hate groups.

SPLC is not a state actor and have no obligation to go after the groups you dislike. They don't have the power to do any more than sue organizations they believe to be hate groups and if they do, then they must prevail in the legal system.

Ask yourself why some voices are afraid of what SPLC does rather than writing them off as "leftists" which is a rather dangerous, frequently used tactic segregationists used to excuse racist behavior. Be careful with this.

"Wait, I get that the Anti-Fascists are actually Fascists but I thought BLM were Marxists? So hard to keep your cogent arguments straight."

APDC, your ignorance is showing. Fascism is an outgrowth of communism. Similar politics, same tactics.

This is incorrect, false and misleading.

"I wonder how you would feel if it were ISIS speaking at the museum advocating the destruction of the USA?"

False equivalency. Moms for Liberty hasn't beheaded anyone, set anyone on fire, or forced women into sex slavery.

The original conversation was with a poster who believes it doesn't matter who rents out space from a private cultural institution; that it doesn't affect reputation and it doesn't touch on history.

I suspected it was because they approved of the group doing the renting. My ISIS analogy was how would you feel if ISIS had spoken at the museum? I think it is fair to say that you wouldn't approve. This goes to the issue of whether an American cultural institution should neutrally host any organization without it affecting its reputation.

"What I see is an appalling bit of police brutality on a peaceful protestor."

You have an expansive definition of 'brutality'. That subject ran away from the officer at the start of the video and when he resisted being taken into custody the officer took him to the ground. No brutality involved.

The link was posted by 35thOVI to demonstrate out of control leftist/pride protestors. All I saw was a peaceful protestor being unnecessarily slammed to the ground. Is there more to the story? Maybe. But 35thOVI only provided this evidence and I could only comment on what he linked. If you have an issue with that, take it up with him.

The "subject" didn't run away from the officer, you are fabricating that. It doesn't seem like there was any interaction until the officer slammed the protestor to the ground. If you have any additional evidence or views to the contrary, please provide them.

The video posted was tweeted by Charlie Kirk who approves of this type of behavior for all Pride protestors by the police as a matter of policy and indeed is encouraging more of it. He makes no mention of the protestor being dangerous or resisting arrest and in fact appears to revel in the fact that the policeman beat the pride protestor down for no other reason than representing something Kirk dislikes.

Even the Gateway Pundit, which is perhaps the-rag-to-end-all-rags, said the protestor was "manhandled" and, presumably in defense of law enforcement, can at best say that the protestor was waving the flag in a disruptive manner. I suppose there are always exceptions but waving a flag at a protest is protected speech. Just so you realize this, and you might not, the public is not bound to obey just any capricious order given to it by law enforcement.

From APDC:

"The link was posted by 35thOVI to demonstrate out of control leftist/pride protestors. All I saw was a peaceful protestor being unnecessarily slammed to the ground. Is there more to the story? Maybe. But 35thOVI only provided this evidence and I could only comment on what he linked. If you have an issue with that, take it up with him."

Below, My original post, referred to by APDC above, that had the link:

"Did see this two days ago on the web. Did any of the offended in these posts, join the protest? Seems like you would want to express your outrage where your voices could be heard.
Subject: Transgender Pride Activist Manhandled by Police While Waving Pride Flag at Philadelphia Moms for Liberty Event (VIDEO)"

Go back a few posts if you want to "actually" watch the full video link anyone.

As usual APDC you have everything wrong and misinterpreted. My ONLY statement was, I thought maybe you and those few who agree with you and your views, would want to join the counter protesters and actually express your outrage in person.

Please attempt to read more carefully and avoid and politically motivated misinterpretations in the future.

Again, this post IS NOT HISTORY. Not a little, not a smidgen, not one ounce. Just political soapbox.

Again I agree 35th. As I said, I have a hard time making the stretch here.

We have had the meaning of fascism debate before. Very political, seemed to involve a suspension of mainstream, traditional and historical perspectives to accept communism, facism, socialism as all aligned with the same side. You know….the bad side. Take you pick.

We change no minds on these matters. There are dead end partisan answers for too many points, back and forth redundancy, personal judgements, etc.