Help support TMP

"Defending Dixie's Land" Topic

21 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

Please avoid recent politics on the forums.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.

Back to the ACW Discussion Message Board

Back to the ACW Media Message Board

Areas of Interest

American Civil War

Featured Hobby News Article

Featured Recent Link

Featured Ruleset

Featured Showcase Article

CSS Mississippi

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian completes a Confederate river ironclad.

Featured Profile Article

Remembering Marx WOW Figures

If you were a kid in the 1960s who loved history and toy soldiers, you probably had a WOW figure!

Current Poll

1,045 hits since 24 Jun 2023
©1994-2023 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

TMP logo


Please sign in to your membership account, or, if you are not yet a member, please sign up for your free membership account.
Brechtel19825 Jun 2023 12:36 p.m. PST

Has anyone read this book?


Is it worth having and reading or is it just another volume of the Lost Cause myth?

DisasterWargamer Supporting Member of TMP25 Jun 2023 2:57 p.m. PST

Not a chance

Just reading the Amazon piece

"An accurate picture of what life was like for minorities in both the North and South, and, as inherently wrong as the institution of slavery has always been on planet earth, why southern slaves generally viewed their situation as preferable"

Multiple chapters address the topic of misinformation about Slavery

Other parts of the write up would also have me skipping this set of "Truths"

Personal logo Old Contemptible Supporting Member of TMP25 Jun 2023 5:11 p.m. PST

It was about slavery, the South lost. Get over it.

pzivh43 Supporting Member of TMP25 Jun 2023 5:57 p.m. PST

I don't for a minute believe that the enslaved black population preferred slavery. But, like most people, what is known is more comfortable than the unknown until more knowledge is gained.

But although the civil war was about slavery, it was not only about slavery. The growing predominance of federal power over states power was an issue, as was the power of industrialization and its political ramifications.

Grattan54 Supporting Member of TMP25 Jun 2023 6:02 p.m. PST

Oh boy, this is heavy, heavy Lost Cause.

Personal logo Dye4minis Supporting Member of TMP25 Jun 2023 8:11 p.m. PST

I haven't read that particular book, but have read others on the subject. One cannot overlook the attempt to create a country of their own in Liberia. It was not a very big success. Many families had lived in the 13 Colonies for generation by the time of the ACW. Frederick Douglas painted a colorful picture as to why blacks felt this was their home as well and has a history of fighting for it. (All men are created equal- a founding principal of our Constitution.)

"Free people of color in the United States, with a few notable exceptions, overwhelmingly rejected the idea of moving to Liberia, or anywhere else in Africa, from the very beginning of the movement. Most of them had lived in the United States for generations, and while they wanted better treatment, they did not want to leave.[19]: 143 [20][a] In response to the proposal for blacks to move to Africa, Frederick Douglass said "Shame upon the guilty wretches that dare propose, and all that countenance such a proposition. We live here—have lived here—have a right to live here, and mean to live here."[22]

From here for anyone wanting to learn more.


Personal logo Old Contemptible Supporting Member of TMP25 Jun 2023 10:35 p.m. PST

The growing predominance of federal power over states power was an issue….

"There's a great deal of irony in the fact that in the course of the war, the Confederacy developed the most powerful—the most intrusive—central government seen in American history, until about the midpoint of the 20th century."

…as was the power of industrialization and its political ramifications.

These other issues besides slavery could not have been resolved short of 750,000 deaths? Confederate men died at a rate three times that of their Yankee counterparts; one in five white southern men of military age did not survive the Civil War. There were other issues but they could have been resolved by normal means.

ScottWashburn Sponsoring Member of TMP26 Jun 2023 6:50 a.m. PST

Slavery was the only issue that was powerful enough and REGIONAL enough to have brought about secession and the war. There were other issues that upset people, but they were not concentrated in specific regions. For example, many in the eastern part of what became the Confederacy hated the tariff on imported goods. But the western southern states loved the tariff. It was the major source of income for the Federal Government and it paid for things like the army that kept the Indians at bay. Take away slavery and there simply was no other issue that could have brought about the war.

donlowry26 Jun 2023 8:12 a.m. PST

What Scott said.

Legionarius26 Jun 2023 5:06 p.m. PST

The bad guys lost. Amen.

Blutarski26 Jun 2023 6:28 p.m. PST

Slavery was the only issue that was powerful enough and REGIONAL enough to have brought about secession and the war.

Please refer to the "Tariff of Abominations" and "Nullification"

The claim of the Civil War being fought to "free the slaves" is a fiction. Read the entirety of Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation (issued some TWO YEARS into the war!); note in exactly which areas slaves were proclaimed to be free and where they were NOT freed. You might be surprised.


Murvihill27 Jun 2023 4:44 a.m. PST

The North originally fought the war in large part to preserve the union.
BUT- the south seceded because a bunch of slaveowning landowners could see the writing on the wall. They lay it out in their articles of secession.
The Emancipation Proclamation was a way to deal with all the slaves being either captured or presenting themselves at union lines, without upsetting northern slave owners.

35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP27 Jun 2023 5:00 a.m. PST


In the South, slavery was the catalyst for many. That and hate of other sections of the country, especially NE, trying to force their laws and views down their throats. After the Union came South, it was the invasion for others.

For those in the North. I would venture slavery was a big part for many in NE and for some elsewhere. Preserving the Union after Ft Sumter, for most of the rest. Of course the draft later.

From original letters and exerts I have read, those are the reasons expressed.

Opps, also because friends and family were going and for the adventure (they discovered how wrong that was quickly).

Brechtel19827 Jun 2023 4:45 p.m. PST

The claim of the Civil War being fought to "free the slaves" is a fiction.

No one here is saying that. What is being said, and what is an accurate assessment, is that the cause of the Civil War was slavery.

Lincoln fought the war to preserve the Union. The idea of freeing the slaves came later.

Brechtel19806 Aug 2023 8:01 a.m. PST

This might be interesting for those who support the 'Lost Cause':


Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP06 Aug 2023 9:18 a.m. PST

Lincoln prioritized the crisis and managed it for the win. He was pragmatic. Long before he was president, he wrote to a slave holding acquaintance that slavery made him miserable and said that people needed to realize how much the people of the north had to "crucify" themselves to hold the Union together.

Blutarski06 Aug 2023 12:56 p.m. PST

People might want to read more deeply into the "Reconstruction Period".


Au pas de Charge06 Aug 2023 2:42 p.m. PST

We hashed it out in 175 posts just recently, without changing any minds.
But like the song that never ends…

Who is trying to change minds? Just making bad ideas realize just how bad they are is worth the effort.

This book about black slave owners is interesting. I was reading the reviews and a couple of them are by true men of letters.

Count Tigrevurmud Vorn
5.0 out of 5 stars True History rawrr!
Reviewed in the United States on October 13, 2022
Ser Larry Koger, thank you for standing up on behalf of the truth with this charming book. The book clearly shatters the Yankee myths regarding The Old South. This book proves Black Americans prior to Lincoln's war free or bond are ten times more free in the integrated South than as impoverished "freedmen" in the segregated Yankee states up North. After all, many of the wealthiest Planters like William Ellison Jr. and Horace King began their lives enslaved servants themselves. Once again the South sets the standard. Deo Vindice!

Ten times more free in the integrated South, eh?

I was reading Kroeger's book precis on the Abbeville Institute's website where it admits that the majority of the slavers owned by other "blacks" were family/friends rescued from chattel slavery. I cite the review here because the Abbeville Institute are #NotLostCause #Not-on-SPLC-KKK/Hate-List-since-the-1980s and thus would presumably only publish something they found sympathetic to the antebellum South

Let's say, without examining Kroeger's book or accepting all his statistics as fact that of the 10,000 blacks allegedly held by other blacks or people of color before the civil war, some 50% were friends and family. That leaves 5000 of 4,000,000 black slaves. That's a whopping .125%!

And that's "IF" those are the right numbers. They might very well be a lot lower, perhaps closer to .0625% or much lower.


Zany Mom
4.0 out of 5 stars A side of slavery all should know
Reviewed in the United States on December 16, 2008
Verified Purchase
Most people believe that slave owners were white, rich, and evil. This book shows that lots of blacks were slave owners and they didn't have to be rich in order to own slaves. The book also proved that blacks didn't just own their family members in order to gain their freedom. Free Blacks owned slaves in order to further their own economic status because that was system of their day. A fascinating and insightful book which gave the other side of slavery. Well researched but at times repetitive.

Yes, Zany Mom, youre correct, there were literally billions of black slave owners in the deep south…we've been keeping it from you, just like we've been keeping the fact from you that your microwave really is trying to take over your mind.

I wonder if she's a card carrying Moms For Liberty member?

This review takes the cake:

5.0 out of 5 stars Eye opening
Reviewed in the United States on March 19, 2020
Verified Purchase
I loved the data and the sourcing from documents. While this study details only one state, South Carolina, it is probably reflective of other southern and perhaps northern one as well.

Yes Philip, youre right, well, except for the fact that the North didnt have slavery. But dont let that irrelevant sniglet stop you "enjoying data and sourcing from documents". Heck, if you keep staring at books long enough, you might actually learn to read one day.

If you think slavery was a one sided enterprise you will wrong it was an institution worked by whites, malotto or blacks.

"Malotto"? Oh, Phil, your talents are wasted, you need to become a HS teacher in Florida.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP07 Aug 2023 7:02 p.m. PST

It's like torture hearing these comments in 2023. Every time I get to thinking things are getting better….

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.