"wagner victory claim bakhmut win ?" Topic

i see prigozhin has claimed victory over bakhmut and intends to hand it over to russian army on may 25
i thinking he wants to get out ,(move to more profitable areas sudan)but cant redraw/retreat from bakhmut (loss of face etc)
so what does he do
he claims victory and hands bakhmut over to russain army then on friday may 26 or thereabout the russian army is routed ,
prigozhin can then blame russian army and defence minister for the loss?

Sounds about right!

Congratulations! Russia now owns a smoking pile of rubble astride a crossroads to …. well, nowhere really! And the cost was only approx. 100, 000 casualties!? Oh, and … umm … who are those troops filtering through the woods on either flank?

Ha!Ha!…

Armand

Create a desert and call it peace?

And the cost was only approx. 100, 000 casualties!?

Russia's standard seems to be heavy losses for few gains.

The restaurant owner and several thousand recent prisoners drove the Ukrainian army out of Bakhmut…
Epic)))

From Military.com –

Zelinsky says they Russians don't occupy Bakhmut …

link

Again, I tend to believe little to 0 Putin, Prigozhin, the Russians, etc. say vs. Zelensky …

The same Prigozhin said that small remnants of Ukrainian units remained in the city, which did not have time to leave the city. They hide in the ruins of buildings. But they are no longer able to provide organized resistance – these are scattered groups, deprived of supplies and looking for a way to leave the city. So formally Zelensky is right, but the battle in the city is actually over. The area is being cleared. Prigogine intends to finish it by May 25.
Fighting continues on the flanks – but so far without much Ukrainian success.
The battle for the city continues, but Bakhmut himself has fallen.

‘Exhaust them': Why Ukraine has fought Russia for every inch of Bakhmut, despite high cost

link

Armand

"The restaurant owner and several thousand recent prisoners drove the Ukrainian army out of Bakhmut…Epic"

More than Epic…A real shame for the Russian Regular Army and its Air Force… they had to hire convicts led by a Chef to win a small town and it took them 9 months to do so without counting thousands of casualties… Now that was Epic!.(in the Russian Way)

Armand

Fighting continues on the flanks – but so far without much Ukrainian success.

Looks pretty good on the map, actually.

Success is relative. It rather comes down to how hard the Ukrainians are pushing. Unless someone has source I'm not seeing large scale deployment of Ukraine's new units.

Ukraine in Bakhmut "exhausted" (actually not) the contingent of Russian prisons))) High cost for the destruction of the dregs of society.

Nine month? So that was the goal – to enable the Russian army to train calmly and build fortifications. Nine months is more than sufficient time.

There is no disgrace to the Russian army. This city, which no one needed from a military point of view, was a symbol of Ukrainian invincibility. And ordinary criminals took it, although the city was defended, including by the best Ukrainian units (special operations forces, etc.)
This is simply ridiculous.

The Ukrainians declared their goal to encircle the city and encircle the Wagner contingent. All they could do was move a few hundred meters.

There is no disgrace to the Russian army.

That walking, literally in some cases, war crimes factory that utterly failed to conquer a second or third tier military which has largely improvised its way through the last year with Europe and Americas' Cold War cast offs?

The great victory in some context… link

This is simply ridiculous.

Yes the Russian army is.
YouTube link
I'd complain to your elected representatives about its performance and the waste of tax payers money.

No idea what happens next or when but at some point Ukraine is going to use those assault bridges its been assembling. Volunteer units specifically raised and trained to assault the aforementioned fortifications. My money isn't on cold, hungry, ill-disciplined, ill-equipped and poorly motivated conscripts…

ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa, we'll just have to wait. Why engage in meaningless fortune-telling?
There is a Russian proverb: "Do not brag when you go to battle, but brag when you return from it" ;-)

Bragging, fortune telling and simply being willing to put a bet down on a simplistic outcome are very different things – never mentioned what the odds might look like… probably quite long or just how much I'd stake. And history alone teaches us that betting on the outcome of military operations is extremely ill advised.

ROU +1 … again …

ROU "I'd complain to your elected representatives" if you want to test your personal aerodynamics from a 6th floor window!

Tally Ho!

Cuprum2

"There is a Russian proverb: "Do not brag when you go to battle, but brag when you return from it" ;-)"

Good advice that Russian propagandists, and their online apologists, would be well advised to follow.

Not sure that the survivors of this ill-advised imperialist adventure will be doing much bragging when they eventually return home from Ukraine but they may be wondering who is to blame for so many of their comrades dying before their time and what advantage Russia gained from inflicting so much death and misery on Ukrainian civilians.

Not sure also…

Armand

What does the fall of Bakhmut in Ukraine really mean?

link

Armand

Not sure that the survivors of this ill-advised imperialist adventure will be doing much bragging when they eventually return home from Ukraine but they may be wondering who is to blame for so many of their comrades dying before their time and what advantage Russia gained from inflicting so much death and misery on Ukrainian civilians.

Unfortunately a combo of Putin's fantastical propaganda narratives about the West and Russian exceptionalism seem to be providing excellent armour against any kind of self-reflection at the moment.

Do you have a lot of reflection after your wars in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, etc.?
Your stance is hypocrisy.

The answer to whataboutism is, it doesn't make it right for you that somebody else did the same and got away with it.
Simple isn't it?
Which judge on this planet would acquit a murderer because of his defense strategy that others also got away with it?
It's just a cheap but weak second-class rhetorical figure used by third-rate players in constant repetition.

What's next, an inferiority complex from a bad childhood and looking for a scapegoat for self-inflicted misery?

Arjuna +1

And ordinary criminals took it,

Legally, since Russia had not declared war, ALL Russian citizens in Ukraine without visas are ordinary criminals guilty of illegal crossing borders. Of course many Russians in Ukraine are guilty of warcrimes, murder, kindaping, rape, theft and the like.

And most Russians around the world are ordinary criminals guilty of supporting and praising aggressive war, which is crime against peace penalized in most Europeans countries f.ex. in Polish Criminal Codex (art.117).

Well Russia has captured Bakmut. But was it worth it? Is it a Pyrric victory? I believe so. But such is war. You win some battles and lose some. Keep your eyes on the strategic goals amd try to stick to your plan.

Cuprum2:

"Do you have a lot of reflection after your wars in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, etc.?
Your stance is hypocrisy."

Yes, there's been a lot of reflection on all of those in the West. The former Yugoslavia, mixed but generally positive for intervening to stop your Serbian friends worst genocidal excesses. Iraq and Afghanistan – clearly strategic disasters thanks to lack of planning, ignorance, hubris and a failure to priovide sufficient resources, whatever arguments might be made for the initial interventions. Libya – ends up a mess but, along with much of Africa, quite lucrative for Russian mercenaries.

Syria is an interesting one. Western concerns about Iraq, Afghanistan lead to stepping back, Well done Russia though, for keeping a murderer in power, targeting any viable and moderate forces first to leave a choice between Assad or Islamists and publishing boastful photos of Tu-160s dropping hundreds of dumb bombs from 40,000 feet whilst criticising the US and UK when intelligence failures and mistakes lead to targeting the wrong people with PGMs.

Midlander65. Wellwritten. Thumbs up!

Midlander +1 !

Midlander + 3

Armand