"ww2 air combat rules for small scale" Topic

HI I am curious about ww2 air combat with miniatures but i do not have a clue as to what rules are out there for this and what ones are actually decent.
I am familiar with the Clash of Arms fighting wings board wargames, but could these be at all compatible with miniature wargaming?

what rules are there and what are the best?

Yes, you could use Fighting Wings. I played Air Superiority (the earlier modern jet combat variant) for years using micro armour planes. Check Your 6 is designed as a miniatures game, although it uses a hex grid, and works well as an intro game.

There are many other rules out there and I have most. Personally I like the hex grid as it helps regulate the games.

hte hex grid concept seems fine though i dont know where one gets hex grids for wargaming from. I bought the fighting wings pdf on wargame vault but i am not sure how usable it is on its own, it lack scenarios for one thing

rules that are more dense and cumbersome are kind of ones that i like more than fast play stuff

i will look up Check your 6 though as an intro

I highly recommend Check Your 6, it's a great game and has tons of scenario/campaign books available. It's been a regular game with my local group. There is also a Jet Age version for 1950's to current and an unofficial WWI variant. Here's on source of hex mats link

Just realized you're in Australia, so Monday Knight is probably not your best source of mats.

Hex grids can be gotten in a few ways.

Some companies print hexes on versions of their game mats. I prefer the fabric mats and some come in 4' x 6' size.

Litko sells templates for painting, or using markers, to add hexes to your fabric, or other, mats.

Also RAFM has 2" iron on hex sheets if you ask. It is not a common item and is actually from decades ago when I made my own. I like 2" as it works with 1 1/2" bases for 1/300 planes.

Depending on your computer skills you could draw up hexes on various blank or say aerial views of terrain and have the local big box office supply house or drafting or sign shop make copies or print out.

If you want detail you cannot beat Fighting Wings. The wargame vault product is nothing but the rules. No data cards, counters, maps or scenarios. Depending on your theatre of interest there are quite a few stand alone variants of the game. Sadly a few are not covered (yet?).

I have done a home made aircraft stand design. If you want some pictures send me a PM with your email and we can correspond there.

Another plug for the Fighting Wings series. I've been playing them with miniatures for decades now. I made my own 2" hex map using the RAFM iron on transfers. I also have a Chessex 1 1/2" hex, 4x8 mat for an unfinished project using 1/700 airplanes. JD Webster is selling a number of aircraft data cards as stand alones on Wargame Vault, as well as some "Six Pack" mini- subjects. These come with six ADCs and a dozen or so scenarios, but aren't necessarily stand alone products. The Buffalo Wings mini game is still available from ATO. Lots of scenarios for Russo-Finnish conflict.

Hey Gozerius, you are not in Ontario by any chance?

No one has recommended them yet, but Bag The Hun 2 link seems to be quite popular, definitely emphasizes formations and tactics. Of the various commercial offerings, I play Lacquered Coffins the most: link but I favour speed and simplicity over the crunch of Fighting Wings.

Stephan M,
Sorry, no. ST Paul, Minnesota, USA.

Gozerius
Mentioned because RAFM iron on hexes are uncommon AND old. Plus hopeful thinking for an opponent. I am near Toronto so too far. Sigh…

Here is my stand.

link

Irishserb's design

link

I made my air combat hex mat over 20 years ago. Cost me about $10 USD for the iron on transfers, another $15 USD for the sky blue flannel, and $2,500 USD for the new dining room set after I wrecked the finish on the old dining room table. Hint: a dining room table is NOT a suitable surface to apply iron on transfers.

Ouch! I am sure on the instructions to put a towel or blanket under the sheet you are applying it to. Bummer.

As above Bag the Hun is definitely worth a look.

remember he is looking for intense detailed rules. CY6 is not but may be a good intro to the genre especially wrt using miniatures.

The 'best rule set' is the rule set you like. :-)

I've played most of the big names out there.

Check Your 6:
CY6 has some good reviews at its Boardgamegeek page: link It wasn't for me. I don't like plotting moves and its too fiddly. (I hear other TMPers gasping right now!)

Big Actions:
If you want to play actions involving flights of bombers, escorts, and interceptors then you want Luftwaffe 1946 from MSD Games. Horrible name, but it covers the war 100% historically plus what-if planes a'la Crimson Skies. Each player can easily handle 3-12 planes. I've played 4-player up to 10-player games. At the MSD Games website you'll also see their "Blue Sky" series of rules, which are also good. L46 is similar but the next step in their design. the BS rules are not supported. L46 is supported. I think this is the best for big actions. You can use 1/300 or 1/600 planes. MSD Website: msdgames.com

Two excellent options for dog fighting:

1. Blood Red Skies from Warlord Games. link
Highly supported, plenty of reviews here on TMP and and videos on BGG. This is probably your best bet. BGG Reviews: link

2. Wings of Glory WWII by Ares Games link
You'll have to look around online where to find it. It is the easiest of all the games. The pre-painted 1/200 (IIRC) planes are a thing of beauty. I have never had an un-fun game of this. Downside, you're locked into their planes, which can be hard to find.

thanks for the suggestins – i keep seeing "Blood Red Skies" mentioned but had not looked at it yet, perhaps i was confusing it with some non-miniature game with a similar name.

Yes Fighting Wings is the one admittedly interests me the most, but apart from the Wargame Vault providing the rulebook only and also JDWebster providing some aircraft data cards, i cant find any of the scenarios for the game and copies of the actual boxed game seem compltely non-existent. I do see there are boxes of Achtung Spitfire and Over the Reich around but they are quite expensive, the latter particularly
i wish these could all be made just a little more accessible to curious folks like myself.

Could one just play fighting wings without specific scenarios and just the data cards?
also and i hope this doesnt sound to odd or perhaps asking too much, but i also am keen on solitaire gaming, is that something possible with any of the mentioned rules or such?

I have seen that the game Birds of Prey has solitaire modules so i am inclined to think one could work things out for ww2 air combat also

Could one just play fighting wings without specific scenarios and just the data cards?

Yes, easy. Here is one, a scenario from one in WSS magazine I did with Achtung Spitfire!: link

Conversely, here are a few Achtung spitfire! scenarios I played with some homebrew rules:

link

link

link

link

You could of course have a go at the PC versions: link
link

wow that all sounds great – i have the pc versions, they are great, but i am still interested in tabletop games – i have seen some pics of folks playingFW with miminiatures on some metal stands with some of adjustable part on top holding the minis – where could one find these? are they needed or could the aircraft just be on fixed stands?

what is "ATO" and RAFM? HOW big ideally should a hex map be? if i make myself do all the hexes need to be numbered?

are they needed or could the aircraft just be on fixed stands?

I don't think you need them, so you could fix them…not sure what they were using the adjustable part for. The aircraft attitude, possibly? Since height is being recorded in 100' increments, then I don't imagine they are adjusting for aircraft altitude. But TBH since you have to record a reasonable amount of info per aircraft, it is going to be hard to get away from using paper records anyway.

To be frank, I usually find playing Fighting Wings solo a bit of a pain. 1-2 fighters against a few bombers is 'okay'; 1-2 fighters against 1-2 interceptors is 'passable'; everything else is doable (there is an online AAR somewhere of a full Carrier Strike mission from Whistling Death being played out solo) but it is a lot of work, with a lot of recording, I find. And you need to *really* understand the rules by this point, if you are still looking stuff up, then the game just bogs down, so prepare for a decent time investment.

RAFM: rafm.com

ATO = Against the Odds magazine: link

hmm okay well i guess i probably do have eyes bigger than my stomach here so to speak – the things i would liek to do and imagine doing but in reality i have so many things i am trying to do in my free time perhaps it is just castles in the sky for me

doing some more searching now on wargame vault – when first searching i didnt much results with the category of miniatures included, but now if i just search ww2 and air combat categories, i am getting more results including miniatures rules
such as "Spitting Fire", Above the Clouds, Angels Two Zero, "Scramble!", Hunters in the Sky" as well as lacquered Coffins and some others

just looked at Blood red skies and CY6 – hmm sadly i really dont have the money that such games demand, and CY6 has alot of impressive scenario books but at $50 USD-$60australian dollars for each one, i think i would have to pass for now.

Mike Traynor2:16pm #27894
No, the BW rules are not a subset of the Fighting Wings rules, so the FW rules are _not_ the BW rules + 'optional or advanced rules'. The BW rules are a simplified set of rules that sacrifice some of the rigors of the full FW rules to achieve that simplicity.

So, if you start with the BW rules, you'll have to 'unlearn' some of what you learn in BW in order to play with the FW full rules, but it's a much smaller adjustment than going from nothing straight to the FW full rules, if you've enjoyed the experience of BW enough to want the (IMO) richer experience of full FW.

There are players who've played nothing but the BW rules and are happy with that level of complexity and stick with it. There are others, like myself, who only play the full FW preferring its more elaborate flight, and other, systems. In my case, there were no 'intro rule' nor BW at the time the first FW game, Over the Reich, came out, so I was thrown in at the deep end, though having played JD's 'Air Superiority' jet age system I had a familiarity with the general thrust of things, in much the same way BW provides now.

Also, the current full FW rules are the 3rd edition of the FW rules while BW is on its 2nd edition.

i looked up Luftwaffe 1946 and saw the Red Sun Blue Sky series and that interests me greatly but damn they only post to teh USA – is there anywhere one can buy these in pdf form? i wish this option was more available on these old rulesets

also looked up Bag the Hun and it sounds really good tooo and in it i noticed also the supplement of Squadrons Forward whihc they say could be used with other rules too and it sounds like it could work well with solo play too

i wonder if i could then use that FW

There are free ADCs on the io.groups fighting wings site.

Oops. I think JD pulled the ADCs now as he is selling them on wargame vault.

Okay I found one can generate hex grids via some github online apps, – what size hex would be ideal?

Mustangs is a free set developed from an old Avalon Hill board game of the same name. warflag.com/mustangs

Personally found it to be a really good game for a pair of fighters each, experienced players have no problems with a flight of four. And the simultaneous movement system allows multiple players with little increase in play time.

Robert

thanks for that link Robert – another set i had never heard of

this has been great – alot of different rules to look into, i think Bag the Hun and Fighting Wings are too in particular i am settling on, but also Lacquered Coffins and Luftwaffer 1946 i want to look more of a look at

Scramble! and supplement Angels 15 are my choice for WW2 rules as find can manage quite a few aircraft per side. The rules are comprehensive( ground attack, anti-shipping, kamikazes, ramming.)

Georg

Fighting wings, if like Air Superiority (and I am sure it will be) is more like a RPG. Controlling a single plane is a mental handful. Two can just be done but frankly one ends up being second banana. I usually breathe easier when down to a single.

So if you want a pair, FW will do it. If you want to game a flight (4 planes) or bigger let us know and we can advise.

thanks for that clrification, i think i would be interested in games that are good for handling larger numbers of aircraft, perhaps the blue skies games might be better then , though i wish there were pdfs available for thesre rules i could find or buy

GB I have played the Blue Sky series (there are multiple
rukes booklets covering different areas (Med, Eurpe,
Russia, Pacific) and modes (Masses of bombers, Air versus
ships, etc) I helped with playtesting some of the rules
booklets years ago.

For mass battles, I've run up to 60 or so 'heavies'
(B-17/B-24) versus 12 to 18 interceptors (Bf-109,
FW-190, Me-110) using the Blue Sky rules.

Blue Sky is not really suited for fighter versus
fighter duels.

cool, the blue sky series is one i am eyeing off for sure, perhaps now even more than some others

i did buy lacquered coffins on wgv the other day so it seems good for fast play, and the fighting wings seems good for detailed small tactical engagements and as was mentioned a more rpg element which i do like the sound of.. and so just for something larger in scale of units involved the blue sky series sounds most ideal with the level of abstraction in it

If you're looking for mass battles, Blue Sky series or Luftwaffe 1946 series are easy to learn, hex-based systems. For one-on-one duels, or with small numbers of planes, CY6! works well. Blood Red Skies is really just a competition game, no relationship to actual air combat other than the miniatures.