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Personal logo 4th Cuirassier Supporting Member of TMP01 May 2023 6:31 a.m. PST

Can any experts please advise on a couple of points?

1. Am I right in thinking that none of Bluecher's regiments brought their grenadiers with them to Belgium?

2. A number of Landwehr units had Landwehr Jaegers attached; not line jaegers, who are noted separately, but specifically Landwehr. What is known of their uniform? Would they have been vanilla Landwehr or would they have done the dark-green coats thing?

3. Stephen Summerfield's monograph refers to Landwehr having a 1st, 2nd and Fusilief battalion. Would the latter have had black belts like line fusilier battalions?

I am sure someone knows all this off the top of their head….

14Bore01 May 2023 7:29 a.m. PST

Fairly sure the Grenadines who were turned into 2 Regiment didn't get near Waterloo.
Some Landwehr show to have jagers of there own Regiment but the Prussians had oftenloose jagers in their division oob.
The Reserve Regiments the 3rd Battalion were Fusiliers, supposed the Landwehr might be the same but I don't play them that way.

John the Red01 May 2023 8:04 a.m. PST

Hi

The Grenadiers were not present. They were with the main Prussian Army, along with the Guards and Kuirassier etc.

The Volunteer Jaeger companies were attached to various regts including Landwehr. They had the same facings as the regiment they were attached to, but probably wore a fancier Jaeger style green uniform, as they were paying for it themselves! So you can put them in the Shako and/or cap.

I dont believe the Landwehr had fusilier battalions. Some of the Landwehr units had black belts and others white, but this seemed to be supply rather than anything else. The level of training and experience probably meant alot of the landwehr units could nt effectively skirmish, although in theory the 3rd line was to suppose to provide skirmishers when needed. Blutcher's army contained a lot of newly raised Landwehr.

(From my copy of Nash The Prussian Army)

Personal logo 4th Cuirassier Supporting Member of TMP01 May 2023 10:58 a.m. PST

The site I'm looking at is

link

which mentions "Westfalisches" Landwehr Jägers, "Schlesische" (i.e. Silesian) Schuetzen, and also just "Jägers". Silesians I am familiar with, they are the guys in green who often had rifles; jägers I guess are musket light infantry; but the Westphalian Landwehr Jägers are called out quite specifically and differently. So these are not I think line jägers attached to a Landwehr unit. They appear to be Landwehr acting as jägers.

I can't recall having come across these before, which is why I was keen to know more.

BillyNM01 May 2023 1:22 p.m. PST

Have you been through Cent Jours site organograms?
For example: link

Personal logo ColCampbell Supporting Member of TMP01 May 2023 1:32 p.m. PST

In 1815 there were four "regular" jager battalions -- Garde Jager, Garde Schutzen, East Prussian Jager, and Silesian Schutzen. They are wore green coats (kollets) with appropriate distinctions and were armed with short barreled rifles.

The East Prussian Jager Battalion was 20th Brigade/V Korps in Prussia and the two Garde battalions were with the VII Korps (Guard corps) according to 4th Cuirassier's reference. According to the Mont St Jean web site link the Silesian Schutzen Battalion was split between the 1st & 3rd Brigades/I Korps (two companies with each brigade). The 4th Cuirassier reference also has the same information for the Silesians.

There were a number of volunteer jager detachments (freiwilligen jager) raised in 1813 and 1814 in various strengths. As John the Red states, they had to provide their own clothing and equipment including a rifle. The reference from 4th Cuirassier seems to indicate that these volunteer jagers were also raised in 1815, which the Mont St Jean site confirms if you look at each separate regiment.

Jim

Personal logo Dal Gavan Supporting Member of TMP01 May 2023 1:50 p.m. PST

The Jäger and Schützen were rifle armed, as were the Freiwillige Jäger (FJ)- volunteers who supplied their own uniforms (usually to a regimental pattern) and weapons. Most units, including cavalry, had a FJ detachment- as John the Red pointed out above- but they varied in size from a couple of dozen to over company strength. The more "distinguished" units, such as Guards, got the most volunteers. FJ were also looked on as officer candidates and could be commissioned into the regiment.


I'm not familiar with the Westfalisches Landwehr Jäger (WLJ), but I haven't looked at the Napoleonic Prussians for a long time. The WLJ may have been FJ detachments- possibly grouped together to make them more effective. Or, in 1815, former Westphalian light infantry that had been taken into Prussian service (one way or the other). v.Winterfeld will be able to clear it up.

The Landwehr regiments had battalions designated as "Fusilier" after the re-org of March 1815, if I remember correctly. However they probably hadn't had time to to do any special training or have any uniform distinctions adopted, though they may have swapped white equipment for black where possible. For the Waterloo campaign the designation may have been nothing more than a title and intention.

Prince of Essling01 May 2023 2:02 p.m. PST

1st Westphalian Landwehr Infantry Regiment (WLIR) Jager detachment had 4 officers, 220 other ranks
2nd WLIR Jager detachment had 1 officer, 48 other ranks
3rd WLIR Jager detachment had 3 officers, 164 other ranks
4th WLIR Jager detachment had 1 officer, 90 other ranks
Westphalian Landwehr Cavalry Regiment Jager detachment had 17 other ranks
3rd Silesian Landwehr Infantry Regiment Jager detachment 1 officer, 30 other ranks

Heer und Tradition plate 113 shows uniforms for the 3rd, 4th & 5th WLIR Freiwilliger Jager detachments (unfortunately these are for 1813-14).

Will see what my copies of Zeitschrift fur Heereskunde have in them.

Personal logo 4th Cuirassier Supporting Member of TMP01 May 2023 2:17 p.m. PST

So were these guys

1/ Landwehr acting as jägers or,
2/ volunteer jägers attached to Landwehr regiments, but not themselves Landwehr?

If 1, did they wear dark green Litewkas?

Personal logo Dal Gavan Supporting Member of TMP01 May 2023 4:34 p.m. PST

Thanks for that, Essling. I was rather surprised at the number of volunteers the Westphalians managed to attract. I thought that most of Westphalia was not overly happy about being annexed by Prussia.

Prince of Essling02 May 2023 12:03 a.m. PST

@Dal Gavan,
Numbers were taken from Bowden's "Armies at Waterloo" & Hofschroer's " Prussian Landwehr & Landsturm 1813".


@4th Cuirassier,
Both Bowden & Hofschroer have just Jager, so cannot give a firm view. They may possibly have been Freiwilliger Jager but ……

Am only up to 1936 in searching Zeitschrift fur Heereskunde, will keep searching….

Personal logo Dal Gavan Supporting Member of TMP02 May 2023 3:24 a.m. PST

Numbers were taken from Bowden's "Armies at Waterloo" & Hofschroer's " Prussian Landwehr & Landsturm 1813".

I have both, but they're packed in cartons inside a storage container that's 20km south of here. I don't doubt your numbers, mate, it was a surprise that they got that many volunteers.

Prince of Essling02 May 2023 4:16 a.m. PST

Heer und Tradition Plate 113

picture

Personal logo 4th Cuirassier Supporting Member of TMP02 May 2023 4:55 a.m. PST

Aha! Green Litewkas! Fab!

Prince of Essling02 May 2023 1:04 p.m. PST

For what its worth from Hofschroer:

Prussian Landwehr Uniforms 1815

On 28th March 1815 blue tailless jackets were introduced. They had collars, shoulder-straps and buttons in the provincial colours. There were six buttons on the front of the jacket. The cuffs had piping in the collar colour around them and either a metal or cloth-coloured button for closing the seam slit. NCOs wore the same uniform and officers a double-breasted tunic with two rows of buttons but with the same markings as the jacket.

These jackets do not appear to have been widely adopted by the beginning of the campaign, and the cavalry certainly retained their ‘Lithewkas' for the time being. As a result of an AKO of 29th April, the colour of the shoulder-straps and cuff piping were changed to that of the collars. Regimental numbers, compulsory as a result of a KmO of 20th May, were embroidered on the shoulder-straps. They were red on white and yellow straps, white on the others. Officers wore yellow with gold lace.

The following section is based largely Bourdier's "L'Armee Prussienne de Waterloo" which itself has no sources mentioned, so its reliability cannot be checked.

The Kurmark
The 1. Inf.-Regt. wore the regulation shako covered in waxed-cloth. Their "Lithewkas" were ultramarine. Trousers were white, covering the grey gaiters. Belts were black. The grey greatcoat was worn on the brown pack. Regimental distinctions were poppy-red collars and white shoulder-straps. Sabres were carried.

The 2. Regt. wore a tall cap covered in waxed-cloth. Their trousers were also white with grey gaiters. Greatcoats were worn bandolier fashion with a leather sleeve on the left shoulder. Collars as above, poppy-red shoulder-straps. Sabres or axes were carried.

The 3. Regt. wore a low dark-blue cap with a red band and white cross. Baring the usual regimental distinctions, the rest of the uniform was as the 2. Regt.

The 4. Regt. wore tall uncovered caps. Baring regimental distinctions, the rest of the uniform was as the 2. Regt.

The 5. Regt. wore waxed-cloth covers on their low caps. They wore grey trousers, greatcoat crosswise and a red "5" on their shoulder-straps.

The 6. Regt. wore their low caps uncovered, white trousers, greatcoat crosswise and a yellow "6" on their shoulder-straps.

The 1. Kav.- Regt. wore the British light infantry shako with a black and white pompon. On campaign, it was covered by waxed-cloth. The dark-blue "Lithewka" had cuffs piped red as were the grey trousers. The lance pennants were white over black. The grey square-cut shabraque had two red stripes.

The 2. Regt. dressed as the 1. except for the usual regimental distinctions.

The other four regiments wore the regulation shako and uniform. The sheepskin saddle-cloth was trimmed red. The pennants were as the 1. Regt. Except for the 5. Who had black with a yellow cross.

The Neumark
The 2. Inf.-Regt. wore waxed-cloth covers on their low caps. The "Lithewkas" were quite light-blue, trousers grey piped red and the great coat was worn crosswise. Collars and shoulder-straps were poppy-red. Belts were white.

The 3. Regt. differed from the 2. Only with its regimental distinctions and white trousers.

The 1. Kav.-Regt. wore British light infantry shakos with a waxed-cloth cover. The light-blue "Lithewka" had red piping on the cuffs. The cartridge-box had a yellow-metal lidbadge. The sabre had an iron scabbard. The lance pennant was white over black. The black sheepskin saddle-cloth was trimmed red.

The 2. Regt. wore a waxed-cloth cover on their regulation shakos. The remainder of their uniform was as the 1. Regt. Except for the light-blue piped red waist sash and the red over black lance pennant.

Pommerania
The 1.Inf.-Regt. wore their low caps uncovered. The "Lithewka" was dark-blue, trousers white and the greatcoat was worn crosswise. Collars were white, shoulder-straps as per the norm. Belts were white.

The 2. Regt. covered their caps and had red shoulder-straps, but otherwise were as the 1. Regt.

The 1. Kav.-Regt. wore the British light infantry shako covered by a wax-cloth. Either a short single-breasted coatee or a light grey "Lithewka" were worn. Grey piped red trousers. Lance pennants were white over black. The black sheepskin saddle-cloth was trimmed white. Officers wore the "Lithewka". Trumpeters had yellow and white "swallows-nests" and red and white trumpet cords.

The 2. Regt. wore the regulation shako and "Lithewka". Trumpeters had red and white "swallows-nests" and lance pennants were white over black.

Silesia
The 1.Inf.-Regt. wore tall caps covered in wax-cloth, dark-blue "Lithewkas", white trousers, black belts and grey greatcoats worn crosswise by the men who had them. Collars were in the province colour, yellow, and white shoulder-straps denoted the regiment.

The 2. Regt. differed in that they wore the British light infantry shako with a white cross and red plume and yellow cuffs. They did not have greatcoats.

The 3. Regt. wore their low caps uncovered. Trousers were white, as were the canvas packs. Belts were black. They also did not have greatcoats.

The 4. Regt. wore their high caps either with or without cover. They wore dark-blie short single-breasted jackets or the "Collet2. The trousers were white, belts black and the grey greatcoat was worn crosswise.

The 1. Kav.-Regt. wore the regulation uniform and black sheepskin saddle-cloths trimmed in red. Lance pennants were white over yellow.

The 2. Regt. also wore the regulation uniform with their saddle-cloths trimmed yellow.
The 3. Regt. wore chapkas which were blue with a yellow trim above and such cords (gold for officers in both cases). Yellow metal chin scales. The dark-blue ulanka was piped yellow with such collars and "Polish" cuffs. The dark-blue tails were also piped yellow. The buttons were of yellow metal. The epaulettes had such a frame and yellow fields. The trousers were grey with yellow metal buttons along the seams. Belts were black. Lance pennants were yellow over red. The uhlan style shabraque was dark-blue piped yellow with a yellow stripe and grey greatcoat roll. Swords were carried in an iron scabbard.

Elbe
The 1.Inf.-Regt. wore either the covered regulation shako or low dark-blue cap, the "Lithewka" and grey or white trousers. The pack was of white canvas, the belts black and no greatcoat was carried.

The 2. Regt. wore an uncovered cap with a light-blue band and piping, the "Lithewka" with light-blue cuff piping, white trousers, white canvas pack, black belts and no greatcoats.

The 3. Regt. wore the same as the 1., but without the cap piping.

The Kav.-Regt. wore the "Lithewka" with light-blue collars and cuffs, white shoulder-straps and yellow buttons. The double-peaked shako had brass scales, a black/white pompon and white Landwehr cross. The lance pennant was light-blue over red and the black sheepskin saddle-cloth was trimmed in light-blue.

Westphalia
The 1. Inf.-Regt. wore the British light infantry shako with a black plume, white centred black pompon and white cross. A dark-blue, short, single-breasted coatee was worn. The green "Brandenburg" cuffs had dark-blue patches. The coat-tail turnbacks were green. The white trousers were worn over such gaiters. The cuffs of the III. Bat. Differed in that they were plain, just marked with green piping. Their trousers were grey. The I. and II. Bat. Wore their greatcoats on their brown packs, the III. Crosswise. Belts were black. They did not carry sabres.

The 2. Regt. wore covered shakos and single-breasted "Lithewkas". Their grey trousers either covered such gaiters, or were covered in black gaiters. Belts were white. No greatcoats were worn.

The 3. Regt. wore uncovered caps, "Lithewkas", trousers as 2. Regt., white canvas packs, black belts and no greatcoats.

The 4. Regt. wore covered caps, "Lithewkas", grey trousers over such gaiters, white canvas packs and black belts.

The 5. Regt. wore uncovered caps, the "Lithewka" with green shoulder-straps, trousers as 4. Regt., black belts and no greatcoat or sabre.

The Kav.-Regt. wore the regulation uniform. The lance pennant was orange with a black cross.

Rhineland
The 1. Kav.-Regt. wore the regulation shako with a waxed-cloth cover bearing a white Landwehr cross. The "Lithewka" was dark-blue with a madder red collar and white shoulder-straps. Belts were black, buttons of white metal. Overalls were grey. Lance pennants were white over madder red.

The 2. Regt. differed from the 1. only in its headgear which was a dark-blue chapka piped white with a white Landwehr cross and cords, a black plume and brass scales. Their saddle-cloths were of black sheepskin with a madder red trim.

As infantry were not involved, there is virtually no information about them save they wore light-blue trousers.

Prince of Essling03 May 2023 1:05 a.m. PST

Here is Heer und tradition plate 112 for the rest of the landwehr:

picture

Plates 114 & 115 for the Landwehr cavalry

picture

picture

Prince of Essling03 May 2023 2:42 a.m. PST

Illustrations from G. Bourdier's book courtesy of Alfons Canovas website:

picture

picture

picture

Personal logo Dal Gavan Supporting Member of TMP03 May 2023 2:22 p.m. PST

Thanks, PoE. I can't remember seeing Bourdier's plates before and they are impressive.

von Winterfeldt03 May 2023 9:30 p.m. PST

One has to be a bit carefull with Bourdier – like about the generals and staff, one has to cross check it with other sources, in case I would prefer the Heer and Tradition plates to Bourdier.

Personal logo 4th Cuirassier Supporting Member of TMP04 May 2023 1:00 a.m. PST

I've never seen that lance pennons chart before. Where there's a blank square, for example the second and third squadrons of Westphalian Landwehr cavalry, does that mean that there was no squadron? There are some units, the 7th Uhlans for example, where squares have 'no lances' written in – which I take to mean there was a 2nd or 3rd squadron but that they had swords.

The guy at bottom left in that Bourdier plate is interesting. He is labelled Westphalian Landwehr but he's wearing what looks like a Kollet. It differs from a line Kollet in having Westphalian green turnbacks. If memory serves, all Kollets had red turnbacks, with the facing colour worn on the collar, cuffs and shoulders. Was this the intended post-1815 uniform for militia? No more Litewkas?

14Bore04 May 2023 3:51 a.m. PST

Blanks are missing squadrons is my guess, it was in the middle of a major expansion of the army, units were getting mixed together.

Oliver Schmidt04 May 2023 5:12 a.m. PST

The collet with green turnbacks is a bad copy of this here:

link

The shako maybe inspired by this:

link

Prince of Essling04 May 2023 12:11 p.m. PST

Indeed treat Bourdier with a little caution as Hofschroer said no sources given to allow cross-checking.

The Westphalian Landwehr Cavalry Regiment took the field with 4 squadrons plus the small Mounted Jager detachment. Unless better information is available, I would be tempted to give all 4 squadrons the same lance pennants. However to complicate the picture Nafziger has them with red over orange with a black cross…?

Oliver Schmidt04 May 2023 12:33 p.m. PST

The only contemporary depiction of a Westphalian Landwehr cavalry lance pennon which I know, is this one, from 1815 in Paris:

link

Johann Carl Hackenberg, citizen of Elberfeld, saw on 20 July 1815 also a "squadron" (just reinforcements, I believe) of this regiment with "white and light green pennons":

"Am 20. Juli 1815 traf eine Schwadron westphälischer Landwehr-Kavallerie (hellgrüne Aufschläge und weiß und hellgrüne Fähnchen an den Lanzen) […] ein."

Personal logo 4th Cuirassier Supporting Member of TMP04 May 2023 1:55 p.m. PST

Some hugely knowledgeable people here. Another one re Landwehr cavalry: Haythornthwaite's 'Uniforms of Waterloo' shows the Neumark Landwehr cavalry – he doesn't say which – wearing British stovepipes and using a grey cloth shabraque with a red heart on the forward corner. Much as I'd like a unit like that, I've seen no support for this elsewhere; they just seem to have been generic Landwehr. What's the current thinking on this? Is it spurious?

Oliver Schmidt04 May 2023 2:50 p.m. PST

In the journal "Soldatenfreund", 1854, there is a plate of Neumark Landwehr cavalry. No indication which of the two regiments. Prussian shako, dark blue litewka. The shabraque is painted gray with a red edge. No hearts. But I believe this is meant to depict a dirty white sheep skin shabraque.

AFAIK, Haythornthwaite gives Bourdier as one of his sources.

And this 1854 plate needn't be correct, of course.

Oliver Schmidt04 May 2023 3:03 p.m. PST

Another plate in the "Soldatenfreund" gives the 1st and 2nd Kurmark Landwehr cavalry regiments. Identical uniforms, British shako, blue litewkas. Only the shabraque of the man in front can be seen. It is gray cloth, lined with a wide same colour gray edge with red piping on on both sides.

The back corner of the shabraque is pointed, in shape like this one here (Sachsen-Weimar, just the first of matching shape I found):

picture

In the corner a red something, looks like a bell, but could also be a heart, or a very carelessly coloured star.

Personal logo 4th Cuirassier Supporting Member of TMP05 May 2023 1:05 a.m. PST

Oliver

Thank you, from your description of Soldatenfreund, it sounds like you may have found the source for Haythornthwaite's grey shabraque with a red heart.

I tend to be a bit conservative about this stuff – unless there's a strong reason to think otherwise, I am inclined to assume that units followed a similar template. Cavalry tended to display regimental distinctions through facings and lance pennons rather than through horse furniture, so I wonder if the "grey shabraque" was actually a black sheepskin all along, but as depicted in watercolour?

Oliver Schmidt05 May 2023 1:54 a.m. PST

As the shape of this Soldatenfreund Kurmark shabraque is similar to the one of Neumann's representation of the Sachsen-Weimar volonteers above, I doubt it is sheepskin, which usually was cut round in front and back. At least I haven't yet come accross any pointed sheepkin shabraque on images from the Napoleonic period. Therefore, I also believe that Neumann is wrong in his Sachsen-Weimar plate above. But actually, I no nothing about Sachsen-Weimar.

Personal logo 4th Cuirassier Supporting Member of TMP06 May 2023 2:00 a.m. PST

Some really knowledgeable contributions here and I've learnt stuff I didn't know, so thank you all very much.

Baron von Wreckedoften II09 Jan 2025 3:08 a.m. PST

Not to mention all the stuff that we didn't know we didn't know…..

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