"Do you own an EV?" Topic

Here in Australia the price is too high

-- Not when you look at the latest government incentives. Tesla cheaper than a corolla! YouTube link

but you will be paying for the electricity to charge the EV. And if you check, I'll bet that cost far exceeds the cost of gas over the same amount of time.

Not even close. Electricity is far cheaper. Is it enough to make up the difference -- see YouTube link

The thing about energy is that it ain't free. Even wind and solar have costs (extremely high costs, compared to all other sources).

Not even close again. Wiind and Solar are now the cheapest forms of electricity link

We use gasoline in vehicles because it's relatively easy to acquire and efficient to use compared to electric power grid sources, and thus much, much cheaper.

Um no. More to do with energy density and problems with older battery technology.

that there is no way to recoup the cost of the vehicle, or the cost of electricity, in gas savings

Partially true. Again, see YouTube link But also an opposing view -- YouTube link But also watch the benefits of using the EV as a battery to save power costs – effectively doubling the cost savings. YouTube link

Lastly, I travel and do long stretches of over 700 miles in a single day and no EV is capable of doing that currently.

Not without stopping. But you should be stopping in an ICE as well just for safety. A comparison of a similar size trip in Australia. Summary -- EV was 30 mins slower due to breaks, but significantly cheaper in fuel cost. YouTube link There is also an EV that can do 1000 miles, but not something I would use. aptera.us/. Also a 600 mile EV on its way -- link

Not when you look at the latest government incentives

So it's not cheaper, or the government wouldn't be subsidizing it. You're just shifting the cost burden from you to the taxpayers.

Not even close. Electricity is far cheaper. Is it enough to make up the difference -- see

Couldn't watch to the end. Not even close applies to the approach to "total Operational Cost". You can't just multiple total kw-h/mile by miles to get total kw-h. That's kw-h expended in the drive. Not kw-h required to charge. How many kw-h are put into the charging process depends on the current level of charge and it depletes over time. It also depends on your charge station configuration.

They also throw "road tax" and somesuch government interference into the equation. I assume that will end up being a differential (applied to one, not the other). The physics of the vehicle do not change; the laws and subsidies can change tomorrow.

Your conclusion, then can't be "it's cheaper", but "it's cheaper if and only if XYZ political conditions continue". Governments use the bait and swtich/drug pusher model all the time.

This is what I was going to bring up to Parzival about recouping cost as well. My hybrid tells me how many kw-h I use in a trip. I estimate the additional overhead (SWAG from engineers who do those speicific things 50%). For short trips (<50 miles roundtrip) on surface roads (<50 mph) or in speed limiting traffic, EV mode is cheaper than ICE mode. Speed, distance, and especially speed+hills or towing a load breaks that rather quickly.

Not even close again. Wiind and Solar are now the cheapest forms of electricity link

Not even close, indeed. LCOE and LCOS do not account for environmental impacts (as your article points out), and they don't account for scaling impacts, either, which your article skips.

Let's take your awesome "40 solar miles driving per day" car.. I heartly recommend you go to your local government and push for a mandate that emergency vehicles can only be this type of vehicle. Be ready to dig in for your local taxes when they buy enough ambulances (which this wouldn't work for) to cover the need. Make sure you know when they are charging, so you can plan your medical emergencies. Or pick any of the other vehicles, you get the same performance or astronomical cost.

Efficiency in a constrained use case does not equate to broadly applicable efficiency.

I own a hybrid. Applying a healthy penalty to EV mode, it is more efficient for some of my use (I mostly use public transport, but my routine and event-drive work drives are <50 miles, roundtrip in EV favorable conditions). UCE is definitely better for others (hauling loads of charity supplies longer distances on highways and rural roads). The data available is to imprecise to find the hybrid optimal use cases, so I guess.

Nick, you're kidding yourself--or us--about the necessary breaks. Even the "high speed" refueling takes an hour for 30 miles of charge, which changes hitting Cold Wars from a one-day trip to two days, and visiting the kids in Nebraska from two days on the road to three each way. So add on motel bills to the problem of those non-existent high-speed recharge stations. So if I bought an EV, I'd have to rent an ICE for long trips. (And did I mention that one of our larger rental agencies has developed an ugly reputation for screwing up their own payment records and sending the cops out to arrest fully paid-up customers?)

How about if the government and the greens first solve their technical problems and then try to chivvy me into an EV instead of the other way around?

Nick also lives in Tasmania. That's the same size as West Virginia. I could ride a bicycle across the state in half a day and use zero kilowatts.

I have driven from Denver, CO. to Ohio in a single day (1200 miles), stopping only for gas, restroom breaks, food/snacks.

Can't do that in ANY EV. Probably would take 3 days, and like Robert says would add more cost in hotels, food and especially more time away from work.

If I never left the state of West Virginia (or Tasmania) an EV would work fine. Unfortunately most of my trips are 5 to 7 times that distance and need to be done in a single days travel.

Kim

So it's not cheaper, or the government wouldn't be subsidizing it. You're just shifting the cost burden from you to the taxpayers.

Agreed. But I was answering the statement that cost was a major obstacle to EV ownership in Australia.

Not even close applies to the approach to "total Operational Cost".

Not even close applies to the cost of energy (petrochemicals or electrons). Roughly 100 pounds (best case) for electricity vs 3000 pounds for petroleum products -- makes up a lot of the price difference. The assertion that electricty is more expensive is just flat wrong.

Energy losses in refuelling are 10% to 15%. link

LCOE and LCOS do not account for environmental impacts (as your article points out)

Actually, the article says they estimate these impacts, and perhaps estimate incorrectly. But I must apologize -- I gave the wrong link. There are so many articles pointing out that solar and wind are now the cheapest forms of electricity -- link . Note that this is an area that is changing rapidly. People just dont keep up with the economics of what is happening in the energy field.

you're kidding yourself--or us--about the necessary breaks. Even the "high speed" refueling takes an hour for 30 miles of charge

Did you watch the video? YouTube link -- even not being able to get the maximum charge rate, a total of 40 minutes additional time for a 9 hour trip due to charging, and driving 900 km (about 550 miles). High speed charging takes way less than an hour for 30 miles driving. And non-existent high speed recharge stations? This test was in Australia, which has far fewer charging stations than the US or EU, and there were still plenty! And this will get better over time.

Nick also lives in Tasmania.

Also lived in Canada/USA for 15 years. Drove long distances for work and to visit relatives and friends regularly.

I have driven from Denver, CO. to Ohio in a single day (1200 miles), stopping only for gas, restroom breaks, food/snacks.

1200 miles divided by 75 mph speed limit gives 16 hours. You should be breaking for 15 minutes every 2 hours -- so another 2 hours of time. If you arent taking breaks you are a menace. An EV at a fast charger can get 12 miles per minute of charging. link Taking recommended breaks of 15 minutes, that is 180 miles of range added, vs 150 miles driven every 2 hours. So an EV is perfectly capable of doing your Denver to Ohio drive – all that is needed is for charging station infrastructure and responsible driving (taking breaks and following the speed limit). No additional hotels required!

Nick,

I never said I was the sole driver on any of my long drive trips. I am well aware of needing to take breaks from behind the wheel and do not need a lecture from you on how I should drive.

I also have only addressed why I(me) has no interest in an EV. I have not argued that it is not a good choice for you, if the is what you choose. That is what freedom is about. You are free to make your on choices as I am.

You however are acting like a Pitchman for Tesla arguing how great EV's are and we should all go out tomorrow and buy one. Hell, I'd still have a flip phone if they still made them. You have made your argument, and others have made theirs as to what type vehicle they prefer and why.

Lets leave it at that.

Kim

I'm not opposed to EVs. I just don't think they're the be-all, end-all solution to anything, or that they're the best choice for everyone, or the environment, and I am utterly opposed to government mandates which are trying to force me to spend money on one— or to take money from me to give to some other person just because they want one. I don't mind if you do want one; I just don't like having to pay for it.

Maybe I'll just get around to restoring my 1970 Mustang Fastback 351 Cleveland, and pump out carbon just to give EV-mandators the vapors. That'll be worth any cost of driving it. Va-ROOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM!!!!!!

The basic fact is it takes fossil fuels to charge them. A UN commission and a committee by the administration both came up that it will take about 200 years to be totally free from fossil fuels. As far as the climate it has always changed but you can't get that through the climate cultist heads. The bottom line is that most can't afford these things and they want to take cars away so they can control people.
Mark