""Scottish" or "scot" ?" Topic

Hello everyone ,

In the MiniFigs 25 mm Catalog – Renaissance – English Civil War range there are miniatures designated as "Scottish" and others as "scot"?

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What is the difference ?

Which of these references in this range are Irish Musketeers, Irish Pikes, Highland Musketeers, Highland Pikes, Lowland Musketeers and Lowland Pikes for the Scottish armies of the English Civil War and in particular that of the Marquess of Montrose ?

Thanks you for your help.

Paskal

As far as I know, the terms are synonymous. The people are 'the Scots' (and the king the Rex Scotorum) but I'm happy to be described as Scottish.
Can't help on the figures.

The difference is grammar, I think: Scot is a noun and therefore applies to an individual, whilst Scottish is an adjective and should therefore be applied as a modifier to another word. Whether the terms are always used correctly is another matter, of course.

While we're at it, the alternative adjective "Scotch" should only be applied to whisky, I think. Though I might stretch a point and accept sticky tape as well…

Or Scotch pancakes…

Then there's the verb "to scotch", meaning "to put an end [to something] decisively" – like scotching a rumour or a snake.

And "scot free", originally referring to a kind of tax but now more generally suggesting a lack of consequences, especially e.g. punishment.

The term 'Scotch' was also used contemporaneously in the C17th to describe Scottish soldiers.
Colgar6 describes modern usage correctly.

As for the figures: 'Irish' are from Ireland, 'lowland' are Scots who live in the towns (and nearby valleys), 'highland' are from the more rural areas of Scotland, dressed in 'kilts'. All three fought for Montrose – the three regiments of the Irish Brigade, not so many lowland regiments (I can think of a couple off the top of my head), the bulk of Montrose's Scottish soldiers were highlanders.

Also Scotch eggs.

'Scottish' and 'Scots' both serve as adjectives, the distinction between the two seemingly defined as much by usage and euphony as by any philological explanation, although maybe someone has worked it out.

Thus- 'The Scottish Highlands,' 'The Scottish Parliament,' 'The Scottish Daily Mirror" but Scots porridge oats, Scots law, Scots Guards, "One pound scots" (in old money).

'Scot' is indeed the noun of reference for a Scotsman (i.e. Scottish person) as in "A canny Scot'" the plural naturally being rendered with the addition of an 'S' as in "Mary Queen of Scots." "The Scots are a peacable and undisputacious nation." etc.

Until the C20th, 'Scotch' was a perfectly respectable alternative to the adjective 'Scots' used both sides of the border- being effectively a phonetic rendering of the adjective 'Scots' as pronounced by -ahem- the Scots. It may even have evolved to distinguish between the adjective and the plural noun.

Revulsion and offence at its use is essentially a classic example of Scotch mist and, dare I say it, something of a narcissistic affectation.

As to the offence of wearing brown shoes south of Perth, that is an entirely different matter.

Scotch Salmon

Scotch mist.
Scotch broth.
Scotch pie.
Scotch bonnet (the pepper; perhaps not used for the actual headgear?)
Scotch Corner.

"The Scots are a peacable and undisputacious nation."
Who said that?

You did, just now. Didn't you notice?

I've always preferred "Thistle-bashers".

Scotch that rumour.

Scotch Tape

How to upset a Scotsman.

Scotch is the drink. Preferably a Highland single malt.

Scotts porridge is a brand name !!!

"Scotch is the drink."

Actually, whisky is the drink. It's only that the Irish and the Americans get a little confused.

My weegie grandma described herself as being Scotch – however, she was born in 1888.

If they are running away, are they are called "Scoots"…? ;-)

(ducks)

Ok thanks all but for my 25mm MiniFigs :

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Which ones to use in this range as Irish Musketeers, as Irish Pikes, as Highland Musketeers, as Highland Pikes, as Lowland Musketeers and as Lowland Pikes for the Scottish armies of the English Civil War and especially that of the Marquis of Montrose?

Thanks you for your help.

Paskal

Paskal – there isn't anything suitable in the range for Irish Brigade figures.

All of the Scots are good. If they are wearing a 'kilt' then they are highlanders, if they are in breeches then they are lowlanders.

The figures called "scottish" are the lowlander or Covenanter troops whist the figures labelled "scot" are the highlanders.
As KYPD stated, lowlanders are in pants while highlanders are in kilts.
In a pinch , I would suggest using the generic figures wearing monmouth caps (ECW36,63 and 64) along with a sprinkling of the "scottish" type troops. It's technically not correct but it's pretty close.
Hope this helps,
Tom D.

Remember, "If it's not Scottish it's crap!"

At the risk of heading into choppy water.

Are we not too early to be using "kilt" in the 1640's? Surely we are still in the age of "plaid" (nothing to do with Tesla cars) or "belted plaid", féileadh-mór or "large wrap" in Gaelic.

I believe it was known as the "great kilt" only after people stopped wearing it. To distinguish it from the later "small or walking" kilt – waist to knee length, which was a fashion statement, unless you were in the British army, and pretty useless for 'wrapping' yourself up in at night.

Or, in the first half on the 18th Century, Scottish, in which case you were banned from wearing it anyway! 😄

Hence my use of 'kilt' rather than kilt.

and the king the Rex Scotorum

It occurs to me you have to be careful on how you read that.

King What? Tricky thing Latin! 🤣

Thank you all for your precious help, but what did the Irish look like in the army of James Graham (1612 – 21 May 1650), 5th Earl then 1st Marquess of Montrose?

They are described on page 47 of George Gush's book but without illustrations.

Paskal, you may find this useful

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Paskal,
There is also this book, which I have and found very useful.
Helion Publishings "Famous By My Sword".

link

There is also the Osprey book "Auldearn 1645"

link

I have also read that the Irish were known to wear loose grey "smocks" or shirts with tight fitting white breeches/pants and a woolen "fishermen" cap, hence my suggestion for the generic type troops in Monmouth cap.
I would say you're not wrong if you used a mix of all these types to make your Irish Brigade, some lowland scots, a highlander or two along with the monmouth cap and a broad brimmed hat here and there too. Just remember, no armor or at least as little as possible. Mac Colla's bodyguard could be the typical highlander type armed with muskets. The other "scots" regiments would be of the lowlander type. The clans themselves are of highlander types. This is how I am doing my Montose Army in 15mm. I am using old Mikes Models so my choices are limited, just like the Mini-Figs you're asking about.
Hope this helps,
Tom D

Hello and thank you KeepYourPowderDry and Son of MOOG,

I just bought "Famous By My Sword",the Osprey book "Auldearn 1645" and the M.A.A on the Scots Armies of the English Civil War.

I think it will be fine if I find 25mm minifigs resembling the Irish in the army of James Graham , 5th Earl then 1st Marquess of Montrose.

Paskal

There are references of pikemen in 'kilt' (as KeepYourPowderDry says) in this range, what is it for?

@KeepYourPowderDry: that's a great link/post!

Paskal there were a number of highland regiments of foot – equipped with pikes and muskets (the classic Civil War setup with a pike block and two wings of musketeers). The majority of highlanders were what we wargamers would describe as warbands – large bodies of men armed with all manner of weaponry.

colkitto – thanks

I drove past Scotch Corner this afternoon, to keep things simple it is actually in North East England

Warlord do a good set of 28mm figures for the Irish Brigade

cheers

Paskal,
There were a couple of regiments that served with Montrose that were not Irish and not Lowlander Scots but were highlander in origin. The most famous of them was the Strathbogie Regiment which was originally raised for the Kings service in the Bishops War. It was a "highland" regiment but not a "clan" regiment. It was trained to operate with pike and shot as KYPD states, but was dressed and equipt more like lowlander troops. (the picture on the Auldearn cover is the Strathbogie Regt.)
As these Mini Figs are very old designs (mid 80's at best if not older) they are from a time when there was not that much known about the English Civil War period of dress and tactics. At that time it was simply "known" that all Royalists were Cavaliers with long hair, big floppy hats and ostrich feathers aplenty. Also, it was "known" that all Parliamentarians were Roundheads with short cropped hair, sour attitudes on fun and always wore the lobster pot helmet. Furthermore, all Highlanders wore kilts with their clan tartans proudly displayed and looked like they just walked out of the '45 rebellion. (Even though that image is a Victorian era invention)
That's why when you look at the descriptions, anything royalist is in a broad hat, anything roundhead is in the lobsterpot and most of the scots (including the pikes) are in kilts. My guess would be it was just their interpretation of a "highland" pikeman. He's in a "highland" regiment so he must be wearing a kilt. In short, it would be their intention for those "kilted" pikemen to be used for the organized "highland" regiments like the Strathbogie. Now we know it isn't correct but back in that day it was as right as right could be.
I hope I'm not too rambling and confusing here.
I wish you luck on your project and look forward to hearing about your progress. I think that the Helion book is going to be of great help to you. The ospreys are good too.

Also, KeepYourPowderDry, that is a great link.

Hope this all helps and makes sense.
Tom D

Yes Son of MOOG, on my side, I also ended up understanding that, what you write is perfectly true, but the minifigs have so many charms and it reminded me of so many memories of the past century that I almost finished selling all my figurines that weren't minifigs, so that with this money I could only buy 25 mm MiniFigs.

Some Lamming, Ral Partha and Garrison are also compatible and can fill the gaps in some ranges of 25mm MiniFigs …

Suddenly some good people were happy to sell me their collection of 25mm MiniFigs and I have hundreds of 25mm MiniFigs from the years 1972 and 1973 and the "S" series, these old figurines with the armament cast with the figurine unlike the ones currently on sale that have their hands open.

I also have 2 or 3 "intermediate" ones that only have the shield separate from the figure and only the armament cast with the figure.

Alas I have many of my 25mm MiniFig riders from the years 1972 and 1973 and the "S" series, which no longer have their "labels" between the legs where their reference was indicated.

To recognize them, I will therefore have to spend a lot of time in the WRG books (I have 16 including the different editions).

For the highlanders in "kilts" armed with pikes, there is in the list N°20 of DBR – that of the Marquess of Montrose – possibility of 4 stands of pikemen in kilt !?

PS: This is not the right place but if you have or know someone who has 25mm MiniFigs from the years 1972 and 1973 and "S" series for sale contact me via pm.

Thank you all for your future help,

Paskal

Paskal,
You're very welcome. I don't know much, but what I do know I am happy to share.
I know what you mean about loving the "charms" of the older style figures. As I mentioned, I am using old Mikes Models for my whole ECW project and several of my Renaissance armies too.
They were the first war game figures I ever bought and although I supplemented them with almost every known manufacturer through the 90's I recently decided that I loved my Mikes too much to let them be only part of my project….they needed to be the whole project! So off I went on an extended journey to replace every other figure with Mikes! I have accomplished that goal and am now slowly painting them all. Parliament is 80% complete with some Covenanters painted up for support.
But same thing as with your Mini Figs, the range, while extensive, had many gaps that I have to just "fill" with a figure that is not quite right but close enough.Hence my suggestion on the Monmouth caps. My Irish are all regular English troops wearing Monmouth caps or Lowland Scots.
Are they right? No. Are they close? Yeah. Will they look awesome after being painted? Heck yes!
Once again, I wish you luck on your project and look forward to hearing about the results.
Tom D

Thank you again for your help, now I absolutely have to find other MiniFigs from 1972-73 and "S" series.

"There is nothing I am prouder of than that I am a Scotchman,and, I may add, a Scotch Peasant too; for where on all the earth is there a country that can be compared to Scotland, in every noble thing that elevates a nation? and where is there a class of human beings to be found like her peasantry they are not only an honour to the land they live in, but a credit to the whole world, though I, for one, add little to their glory?"

THE SCOTTISH
Gallovidian Encyclopedia

By John MACTAGGART. 1824

For me the Scots are the Irish who will found Scotland after having founded Dál Riata or Dál Riada (also Dalriada) (/dćlˈriːədə/) which is a Gael kingdom comprising part of the North-East of Ireland and the West of Scotland on either side of the Canal du Nord.

At its height in the late sixth and early seventh centuries, it included what is now Argyll in Scotland and part of present-day County Antrim of Ulster, Northern Ireland.

In Argyll, it was divided into four main clans, each of which had its own leader:

Cenél Loairn (clan of Loarn), in north and middle Argyll, which gives its name to the region of the Firth of Lorn;

Cenél nÓenguso (Óengus clan), based on Islay;

Cenél nGabráin (clan of Gabrán), in Kintyre;

Cenél Comgaill (clan of Comgall), based in East Argyll, after whom the district of Cowal is named.

Latin sources often refer to the inhabitants of Dál Riata as Scots (Scoti), a name originally attributed by Greek and Roman authors to the Irish who raided Roman Britain. Later, it refers to Old Gaelic speakers from Ireland or elsewhere.

They are referred to as Gaels, or as Dál Riatans.

The fortified hill of Dunadd is believed to be their capital.

Other royal forts include Dunollie, Dunaverty and Dunseverick.

Dál Riata also includes the important monastery of Iona, which played a key role in the spread of Celtic Christianity throughout my dear northern Brittany and in the development of island art.

Iona, which is a center of study, produces many important manuscripts.

Dál Riata is also a maritime power and has a strong fleet.

Dál Riata is reputed to have been founded by the legendary King Fergus I of Dal Riada (Fergus the Great) in the 5th century.

The kingdom reached its peak under Áedán mac Gabráin (r. 574–608).

During his reign the power and influence of the Dál Riata grew; he leads an expedition to Orkney and the Isle of Man, and attacks the Brittonic kingdom of Strathclyde and the Angles of the kingdom of Bernicia. However, King Ćthelfrith of Bernicia defeated him at the Battle of Degsastan in 603.

Serious reverses in Ireland and Scotland during the reign of Domnall Brecc (died 642) ended the "golden age" of Dál Riata, and the kingdom becomes for a time a client of Northumbria. In the 730s, the Pictish king Oengus I led campaigns against Dál Riata and placed it under Pictish sovereignty in 741. There was disagreement over the fate of the kingdom from the late 8th century.

Some scholars see no recovery in the power of the Dál Riata after the long period of foreign rule (c. 637 to 750/760), while others believe it experienced a renaissance under Áed Find (748-778 ) because certain events indicate that the Dál Riata then seizes the kingdom of Fortriú. From 795, there are sporadic Viking raids in Dál Riata.

In the following century, the fusion of the crowns of Dál Riata and the kingdom of the Picts takes place to form the kingdom of Alba.

Sources indicate that Cináed mac Ailpín (Kenneth MacAlpin) was king of Dál Riata before becoming king of the Picts in 843, following a disastrous defeat of the Picts by the Vikings.