"Understanding tank vs infantry combat" Topic

Good question and at first blush makes sense to reduce shooting – as to close assault, probably would as well (i.e. well done a close assault on the rear of the tank would be tough to see)

You're arguing for "realism" in Flames of War. That's a hopeless cause.

In my experience, rules allow AFV crews to see too much of what is going on outside their vehicle. A negative penalty makes sense to me.

+1 79PA

Don't forget to take into account the pants pooping fear that armor often gave infantry. That itself might be incorporated in crunching the numbers.

I think before you start tweaking someone else's rules it's best to understand their reasoning behind values, what overall influenced them what is abstracted or not considered at all. Much of rules writing is subjective to the author based on his experience, knowledge, and bias. I think that goes for all of us, me too. It would also be good to understand why the designer didn't implement your suggestion or how it is maybe already covered or abstracted.

My opinion is that in a buttoned-up tank, you are not "blind" as many people say. My experience sitting in commander locations buttoned up is that your Situational Awareness in the 20-degree aspect you are looking at is pretty good out to a limited range. But almost completely blind in the other 340 degrees so you need to swivel. If you are advancing in formation with infantry support and flanks secure all you really need is that frontal view. However, without enhanced optics, your sight distance could be limited.

Most Allied tanks had roof-mounted panoramic periscopes with a field of view up to 60 degrees and 4x power. The T-34/85 and Sherman had one for the gunner and commander. The British and Russian periscopes had the capability to quickly look directly in the rear without the crewman turning around. Optics quality matters too. Early war Russian observation optics were pretty bad.

Each vehicle would have a sector to observe and fire into so a 40-60 degree field of view should be more than adequate and hopefully overlap. On the other hand, most tanks are completely blind if you are within 20-30 yards of them.

Then there is what definition of buttoned up and unbuttoned are you using. Unbuttoned can be anything from the commander standing tall with his entire torso exposed to the commander popping in and out taking a quick peek every 5-10 seconds. If the tank is engaged and shooting the commander is probably going to have tunnel vision to the front and be unaware of everything else around him.

In tanks with one or two-man turrets, the commander was the gunner or loader so when engaged he was generally locked down and would have a lower Situational Awareness than normal. That's about a worst-case scenario as you'll run into except maybe the French one-man turrets.

I think the biggest advantage of unbuttoned is enhanced Situational Awareness that should cover your frontal 180 degrees. Some "experts" have said being buttoned up reduces your effectiveness by 40%.

As a result of rounds exploding in the vicinity, one doesn't hear the gun's report at all in the tank. It is quite different whenever the tank commander raises his head occasionally in an open hatch to survey the terrain. If he happens to look halfway to the left while an enemy anti tank gun opens fire halfway to the right, his eyes will subconsiciously catch the shimmer of the yellow gun flash. His (the tank commander) attention will immediately be directed toward the new direction and the target will usually be identified in time. Everything depends on a prompt identification of a dangerous target Usually seconds decide. What I said above also applies to tanks that have been equipped with periscopes."

Quote from Otto Carius Tigers in the Mud

Regarding infantry and tank assault I think you need to do more research.

Hey, it's a game, if it feels good do it.

Wolfhag

There is a mid war German training film "Men Against Tanks" which demonstrates various anti tank methods prior to the deployment of panzerfausts etc. You can find it on uTube.

The most notable feature is that they require the tanks to stop, against moving vehicles, not a chance. Which is why roadblocks, and aniti tank obstacles are so important.

As someone else commented, tanks are also really, really scary, something not to be underestimated. I am always mindful of Charles McDonald's comment in "Company Commander", 'Please God, don't let there be any tanks". He and his company were terrified of German tanks, even though they had shed loads of bazookas.

This is actually a pretty good movie of a prepared Russian defense against a tank attack: YouTube link

Also, the attacker should have identified the defender's strong points and eliminated them before the attack. Idealy, the prep barrage is lifted just as the tanks arrive and catch the defenders coming out of their holes still disorganized.

The defender's main goal is to separate the infantry from the tank by suppressing them and channelize the tanks into a kill/mine zone and/or allowing the tanks to advance past them into the anti-tank gun belt defense zone behind them. The longer the tanks take to attack the infantry the more time the defenders will have to conduct a counterattack. In a well-prepared and executed tank defense, it will be tankers pooping in their pants.

Infantry caught unprepared with no defenses other than bazookas should be terrified.

Wolfhag

I did not watch the whole movie, but the infantry looks pretty successfull so far.

Yes, it's a Russian movie so the Russians win.

In a well-prepared trench, the defenders will have the Situational Awareness advantage and know where to consolidate where the tanks will cross/attack. Generally, anti-tank weapons were stockpiled in places along the trenches for the defenders to access as needed.

Tank blind spots. As you can see if the infantry knows where the tank will cross there is almost no way the tank can detect them. If the infantry is accompanying the tanks then it's not a problem for the tanks as the infantry should be able to handle the situation with their help.

If you examine the blind spots you have to ask yourself what is the tank going to shoot at the infantry in trenches if they are within 25m? The crew can toss grenades out of their hatch and fire SMGs, that's about all.

If the defenders have an anti-tank gun belt behind the trenches the best tactic is to let the tanks roll over you and be prepared for the infantry.

Without infantry support, I'd expect the tanks would want to roll over and get past the trenches ASAP as dogtail suggested.

You're arguing for "realism" in Flames of War. That's a hopeless cause. Do you know why FoW did not include your suggestion in the rules? My opinion is the game rules are so abstract and subjective that any modifier you want can be included if it makes the game better for you.

My suggestion would be when a tank crosses a trench determine (card or die roll) what type of anti-tank weapon it gets attacked with (molotov cocktail, anti-tank mine, rocket launchers, grenade bundles, etc).

Wolfhag