"US Stockpiles" Topic

Subject: Going to war? Good news! The United States is 13 years behind in ammunition production, NYT reports


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How is 13 years behind in weapons production good, except for our enemies who are probably thrilled to read this?

The US never wants to make ammo, our civilian ammo market has been under great pressure for decades. It's a real problem with a lot of NIMBY types who don't want ammo made next door. Ecology types who hate lead.

Much of the raw material comes from overseas to make ammo, even from Communist China. Mostly because we don't want to mine here.

The military likes to buy and field new artillery and tanks and rifles but does not like to stockpile up ammo. The UK ran out of ammo early in WWI. The US ran out of 105mm artillery ammo in North Africa and at the Battle of the Bulge and had to use British 25 pounders.

We have failed to learn from history.

I have been reading about the Italian campaign and one US artillery battalion fired 40,000 rounds in about ten days in WWII. We don't plan for that.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek

+1 Bunkermeister

Nobody likes ammo.It goes 'off' after a while… unless you use it or can pass it on.
Like the stuff in YOUR fridge… eat it or end up chucking it.
'Might' be ok… long after The 'use by' date… but… want it in YOUR tubes?
But, restocking costs… and, after a while… same old!

Hear a good question. Who manufacturers 155mm shells?

Hear a good question. Who manufacturers 155mm shells?

Scranton Army Ammunition Plant: link

Much of the raw material comes from overseas to make ammo, even from Communist China.

China and Russia it seems: link

For those who wish to use the stockpile issue as a reason to stop supporting Ukraine: link

The US ran out of 105mm artillery ammo in North Africa and at the Battle of the Bulge and had to use British 25 pounders.

Read somewhere recently Ukraine was using US produced 105mm shells with a 1945 date stamp.

TSD101 that article is exactly correct. The Chinese make many of our consumer electronics that use chips with a dual purpose. They make our computers. They make our steel and other products essential for war.

We need to bring back industry from China. Let people in South America make plastic spoons and other low tech items. Make the high tech stuff here. It's a win for our neighbors and a win for the US.

Western Europe has the same problems.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek

The US ran out of 105mm artillery ammo in North Africa and at the Battle of the Bulge and had to use British 25 pounders.

…Lucky people!!!!

Bunk +1 on your last post. I have been screaming that since the 80's and watching companies, (including the one I worked with at the time, which was both tech and non tech), completely move production overseas. We were able to transition our shortages so well in WW2, because production was HERE.

The artillery ammo does not concern me near as much as this in the article:

"In fulfilling those promises, The New York Times reported the US has sent Ukraine so many stockpiled Stinger missiles that it would take 13 years of production at recent capacity levels to replace them. The Times added that Raytheon, the company that helps make Javeline missile systems, said it would take five years at last year's production rates to replace the number of missiles sent to Ukraine in the last ten months."

Sounds like we need to get Raytheon to double, or quintuple their production rate, now.

We no longer have a lot of different arms manufacturers. The same handful of suppliers make everything. Manufacturing jobs have finally increased a bit in the last couple of years in the US. But, contrary to political soundbites, we lost many of these jobs to automation, not just outsourcing. The only thing that matters to companies is the bottom line. They will run the lines, but they need incentives. Once you provide this, we can do amazing things. Based on profits, however.

That Scranton ammo plant has been in operation since the Korean War. It still cranks out tens of thousands of shells a month, along with another one in the Midwest. I linked an article on this factory here months ago from the NYT. We clearly need to find some more money under the seat cushions in the Pentagon and expand this capacity.

35th, I agree shells are one thing, but Stingers and high tech ammo are another. We are fighting a proxy war. The reality is that we need to invest in production. We don't even need more money. Stop throwing it away on things the military doesn't even want like the LCS class ships. Making the navy build ships by claiming we need more numbers is the greedy and ignorant. If Congress would regulate the dodgy non-system of getting billions for their own districts with a little more integrity we could strengthen a lot of programs.

In a country with nearly half a billion personal firearms, we are bound to have some challenges with ammo supply chain issues. That market does what it does.
But ammo for the military must meet demand. Russia is being pummeled courtesy of Ukraine. The least we could do is start making more ammo.

Tort, from where I sit, in what was once a thriving manufacturing city, I saw every major company send their manufacturing lines overseas. Also saw some of the technology jobs ship out as well.

Those companies included GM, NCR, Chrysler and multiple others. All those plants produced WW2 equipment. For instance, NCR assembled the Norden bomb sites. Each part of assembly took place in a different building or floor, so few would know the full assembly process of the top secret bomb site. Those manufacturing plants moved to Mexico, China and India, with some of those in Mexico moving to China later for the even cheaper labor. The technology jobs were outsourced to India. Automation was tried at some manufacturing plants, but the extremely cheap labor of Mexico and then then the almost free labor of China made automation an unnecessarily expensive expense and minimized profits. Now the only new manufacturing plants in the area are built mainly by Asian companies, or we get large distribution centers by US companies. Some new technology comes in, but not near enough.

We need to make it unprofitable for US companies to keep manufacturing overseas. You have some of them now, with nothing but their HQ in this country.

I find myself agreeing with Tortella, a strange position for me. Bunkermeister and #5th OVI are also on point. I despair of our government's track record on essential industries.

Seems the former "arsenal of democracy" needs to kick up production. A lot of people are looking for work. As well as there is a very large number of illegal aliens that came here looking for work …

It is clear that the USA's #1 external threat is the PRC/CCP. They seem to be on a war footing. I don't think many in charge get that? When comments about climate change is more important than military readiness. It is still being quoted. Saw it on the news this morning.

If Putin "wins" in Ukraine, that will only play into the CCP's quest to replace the USA economically, militarily, geopolitically, etc.

And embolden them about regaining Taiwan. As the A'stan debacle emboldened Putin's invasion of Ukraine. That is an evaluation by many much more knowledgeable than I. But of course, I totally agree with it.

Some have said, "Walk softly and carry a big stick" has been replaced by "Walk softly and carry no stick" …

Yeah, this shouldn't be a politics issue. Both parties have happily sold out US manufacturing for decades. Everyone should agree that there's a price to be paid for that over time.

Bringing it back wholesale isn't an answer, either, since the costs will skyrocket and we've had decades of a population used to the cheapest price on everything and the sticker shock of having to pay US wages might freak out the masses.

And we haven't been the greatest trade or cultural partner to our neighbors to the south, either. There's a reason for those masses wanting to move north to be in the US, and a lot of it is based on us either taking them for granted or outright screwing them over to our own advantage.

We need to be a better neighbor and start working to improve those relations if we want to rely on our southern neighbors moving forward.

The US is a great nation when we act like it. We haven't really acted like it for a while and the world took notice.

"Sounds like we need to get Raytheon to double, or quintuple their production rate, now."

If we did that they'd make profits and people would complain about the 'military-industrial complex.'

"We need to make it unprofitable for US companies to keep manufacturing overseas. You have some of them now, with nothing but their HQ in this country."

The problem is our government made it so they couldn't operate here at a profit.

I would say that the US is currently fighting WWIII without committing a single trooper. After all it is the "warpac" (or the most substantial part of it) that is attacking Ukraine. And the US is fighting this war with its stock of ammo and on a peacetime budget!

A lot of the equipment sent (for which Ukraine and many europeans are very very grateful) is old, M113:s, M1A1:s and the like. There is absolutely some "new" equipment but a lot is old and would anyway be dismantled. The ammo sent is most likely the oldest in stock and same here. If not used would be dismantled (for lack of a better word).

You are beating your biggest enemy with your old, out of date stock, and not losing a single tank, aircraft, ship or soldier!

The US had two opponents, china and Russia, now only China remains.

Would you prefer to fight Russia with your forces? The US would win but you would lose troopers. Is it not preferably to send equipment instead of losing 40-80 dead soldiers per day for weeks on end?

What would the US opinon value the most? Losing sons and daughters or some old ammo and equipment?

For make no mistake, if Russia is not beaten now they will continue and sooner or later the US would have to fight them.

Liked how the link to "Arm Ukraine or Prepare for China? Wrong Question."
Spoke of similarities of just before WW2 and now. The US military was able to ramp up production of planes and tanks due to English and French demand for them.
If and when the PRC/CCP attacks, the US will benefit from a unified United States as it did at the start of WW2.

USA is not the only place where Arms plants Have closed. UK, My city, Newcastle-upon-Tyne had Vickers… yes Vickers… which built much of UK weaponry… and exports for more than a century. Gone. Think Enfield may have gone as well.

Lol. Edinburgh Castle used to have the 1 o'clock gun. Could be wrong… but think stopped because they could not get Blank ammo, from, think, India!

History… but UK 'started' to re-arm about 1938, but could not hit Full production until 42/43! And that was 'low tech'!

They stopped making stinger in 2020, it's pretty much obsolete.

That's how daft these running-out-of-ammo stories are.

No doubt you're 13 years behind on Sherman production as well.

🤔

Janes seems to dispute that

Subject: Stinger missile production to rise 50% by 2025, US Army says


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Also if Janes is not enough, Reuters below. They may be working on the next generation, but if China invaded Taiwan, or we would go to war with Iran, or even a smaller Middle Eastern country…. Our troops would need those proven Stingers….. now.

Subject: U.S. buys more Stingers after missiles' success in Ukraine | Reuters


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35th, a quick check of Google shows a long list of sources about millions of jobs lost to automation. Interestingly, the cost of automation is declining rather quickly. But I have no doubt about what you are saying as well as a long time trend. Plus it is to expensive for a worker to live here on the poverty wages paid overseas.

Dn…it's not just the government. Corporate greed is a part of the culture. We have never seen such a large uber wealthy class rise so quickly. CEO salaries are massive. Many pay little in taxes. The 50 largest American corporations paid little or no taxes in 2020. From around 2015-20, Amazon's tax rate ranged from 0 to 5%. They have sucked billions out of the US Treasury, even claiming rebates. They are not going to let the tax code go back up to what it used to be.

The devils advocate feels like pointing out that Western consumers were fundamentally unwilling to pay the much higher prices that goods 100% made in NATO countries cost. From our own hobby, their is much bemoaning how much minis made in Nottingham cost. Are we willing to buy vehicles only made with NATO steel, pay 200 or 300 percent more for electronics, only wear wool and cotton clothing fabricated by NATO mills & grown in the fields of North America or Europe, etc.?

We also think that WW2 weapons weren't high tech. I work with Navy guns and we are still messing with battleship guns for research. The artistry and ingenuity that went into their fabrication is not currently extant in industry, period. CNC machines cannot match the mastery of those gunsmiths.

Until the West is willing to pay the high costs of on-shore manufacturing DoD and other NATO ministries are limited to a small cottage industry of arms producers and as a niche industry will cost a lot and not be able to easily respond to mobilization needs.

So to me the answers aren't in Paris, Berlin, London or Washington, but in our own wallets and bank accounts. Think about that the next time you go to Walmart for cheap consumer goods.

The #1 responsibility of any Republic is to keep its people safe. Have some in charge forgotten that ? Guess so …

That may depend on who you think is in charge. The complexities of power and the loss of integrity in our institutions means you can no longer just pick out somebody to blame, IMO. We all would like it to be that simple, but we don't all drink the same kool aid. Follow the money…..

Follow the money…..

That literally is the bottom line. Those is gov't who are millionaires should be rare … but it is not. We know the names of these "millionaires", nothing is being done. The foxes are in the hen house …

So to me the answers aren't in Paris, Berlin, London or Washington, but in our own wallets and bank accounts. Think about that the next time you go to Walmart for cheap consumer goods.

More and more, cheaper and cheaper…

Amazingly I got a few cheap T-shirts from some off named store that were made in Nicaragua and El Salvador ! They were made in America … Central America !

I find it incredible, that UK… once world leader in arms production… with, arguably, some of best weapons… cannot provide for our own, rather pathetic, forces requirement.
What We have, would be used up in a week…or less! Tooling up to START to replenish, would take 1-2 years! And that ain't High tech!
It is rather frightening!
I used to think that we had stock piles… but now, think it has been sold or scrapped!

Good luck finding a T shirt made in the United States. Everything is bottom line driven. It is the only thing that is certain about the US economy, which is to say the global economy. It does what it does. It has no conscience, not too many morals, no loyalty to anything else. It is neither bad nor good. If you were happy to spend a hundred bucks for a t shirt made in the US, someone might start making them.

US labor costs are simply too high. It's not the president, the government corporate taxes, which not many big ones even pay, the unions which struggle for existence in some industries.

Cheap labor serves the bottom line.

Yep all that is true Tortorella … We are a Capitalist society. The bottom line … is the bottom line. Marx said, something like, "The Greed of Entrepeneur will be the failure of Capitalism". We see this somewhat demonstrated by many of our elected & appointed officials, etc. Regardless, a free-market Capitalist society does work. We know that … Where IMO the failure of Socialism is Socialism.

Amazingly I got a few cheap T-shirts from some off named store that were made in Nicaragua and El Salvador ! They were made in America … Central America !

It is perhaps interesting to wonder what might have been if say manufacturing investment had been used more locally by the US and Europe. North Africa, Southern Europe, Central and South America may have been economically quite different. And probably to the good.

Actually you can find things like t shirts made in the US. Yes in some cases more expensive. Some appliances, no. I used to buy Sharpe TVs because they were US, but gone now. So some things, no choice. I try and look and if possible I will not buy Chinese. That at least is a start.

Yep … but I'm cheap ! Those T-shirts only cost $2.50 USD each !

Actually I found some for about 17 bucks each.
Legion, I am not sure how long you can wear a 2.50 shirt before it falls apart!

LOL! They will probably shrink as well. But for $2.50 USD they can be "expendable". 😎

I do understand that there is money garnered in the US by these reports. Higher taxpayer paid budgets for the military, more money for the munitions makers and of course more money into the pockets of our multi millionaire politicians in "both" parties.

That being said, obviously "we are" depleting our munitions much faster than they can be replaced. Meanwhile China is NOT. We will have to build those munitions at todays costly inflated prices, thus costing the US taxpayers more of their stretched dollars and making them poorer. We still get some of the products necessary for those munitions from China, thus making them wealthier. Lastly we increase our ($31.46 T) debt even further, making the US more vulnerable and weaker.

We can see the vast expenditure of munitions by both sides in this conflict. We can only imagine the expenditure of munitions in a war in the Pacific over Taiwan.

This concerns me and I know some others on TMP.

I believe this is important to keep in mind when some demand "unlimited" support for the Ukraine. I believe we should "temper" our support.

Subject: 12ft | Pentagon Officials Are Realizing US Munitions Stockpiles Aren't Nearly Big Enough To Take On China | The Daily Caller


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UK Could 'arm up'… but would take a long time! USA LOT faster… but the 'Bucks' issue. Think it should be started… but…

To get the ordinance/munitions, etc. [plus get the Military combat ready, etc.] the US needs for itself, Ukraine and even Taiwan. There will have to be a major reprioritizing of $$$$ from the very top down. Which of course would mean less for social welfare programs, entitlements, the Green Agenda, freebies to illegal aliens, etc., etc., etc.

The 1st Priority of any Republic is to protect its population. E.g., 7 million illegal aliens that are roaming around the USA. After crossing the Southern Border have 0 to do with protecting US citizens. They in fact add to the threat in many cases …

Legion, you and I know that won't happen. 🙂 Bread and Circuses, Bread and Circuses. 😔

One observation: the types of munitions needed to keep Ukraine free are to a very large degree different from those needed to keep Taiwan free. The US and others have barely touched their air-to-air weaponry stockpiles and (apart from the Harpoons given by Norway) have not touched their stockpiles of anti-ship weaponry at all.

Unless of course, China quickly overwhelms air and sea that are there when they launch and then land. If they quickly got air and sea superiority, the better question is, how will the US and Allies respond?

Bread and Circuses, Bread and Circuses.

Some things never change and/or repeat themselves.