"Ship strike? T-54s!" Topic

The latest vlog from Denys Davydov – YouTube link – has info about a possible naval drone attack in Sevastopol, and a Russian train loaded with T-54 tanks!

Russia running out of obsolete T-62M, so what do they do? They send in the even more obsolete T-55. @Tendar, Mar 22, 2023.

"They announced a plan to upgrade 800 T-62 last summer. At the time many observers were wondering why they chose T-62s when they should be having thousands of T-72s and T-80s in storage. Now we know. It looks like the upgrade of T-62s is not keeping up with the current attrition."
reply by shafii

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The Russian army is taking T-54B tanks out of long-term storage and sending them to the front lines.
@TheDeadDistrict, Mar 22, 2023.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

As we see Drones continue to be effective on the modern battlefield. Probably more than initially thought. And the tech keeps getting better.

The Russians keep pulling MBTs, etc. out of "mothballs". What's next ? T-34/85s, SU-100s, etc. ? Regardless I doubt Russia will use these older "Revenant" 🧛‍♂️AFVs any more effectively than any others of their depleted newer AFV stocks. Many destroyed or captured by the Ukraine.

Wake me up when the T-34s come rolling in.

Last I heard, Russia had to IMPORT T34s for parades! Still, some useful kit getting dragged out from swamps…

I wonder how much HE ammo for the 100mm gun on the T-54/55 The Russian Federation has stockpiled? If they have a bunch (and I think it's likely), it's not a bad idea to use these old tanks as SP artillery. This application makes a lot more sense than expensively retro-fitting ERA and night vision, although IIRC, Ukraine fields T-55s so upgraded.

it's not a bad idea to use these old tanks as SP artillery

Not a great idea either. Poor barrel life and fuel consumption.

I'm actually wondering whether our view of the old Soviet stock piles is a bit wrong. I at least have assumed that the further back they went the more of the stockpile they've used up. I've no evidence, save anecdotal for this, but it does seem increasingly to me that Russia to some extent selectively stripping the stock pile of the stuff that has had upgrade packages fitted – the initial batch of T-62's I believe were refurb's originally intended for Syria. The T-54s aren't original model. This might partly explain why it appears Russia has burnt through its stocks, age-wise, so quickly despite their alleged size. Obviously that would mean a lot may be left. Fair to say a substantial portion of those may be fit only for scrap, but there are probably a large number suitable for refurb. That brings us to the issue of Russia's ability to refurbish and the only estimate I've seen for that is in the order of 20 per month refitting with outdated domestically produced systems.

Basically are those T-54's the last big batch of tanks the Russian's can re-active before they are down to a 20-per month dribble?

It just depends on employment. An up to date tank can be taken out by missile, arty or mine. If you can supress missiles, arty and avoid mines, 1950s Tank is still a Tank. You would not want it in your vicinity. Barrel life and ammo… well it probably is not going to be around for long. Training less complex than modern kit… and maintennance… as above. Up against Modern or upgraded MBT, little chance… but don't go there… if command has sense. Rus, probably lacking.

Poor barrel life

But so what? If you're burning 'dead' ammo (none of their other tanks use it) it's better to shoot it and waste barrels on obsolescent tanks than to have it taking up warehouse space. The T-64s they've been using in this role (as I understand it) are using up currently-used 125mm ammo.

and fuel consumption

If they're being used as more or less static SPArty, I think this is less of an issue than if they were trying to do manuver warfare with them. I freely admit to knowing almost nothing about the topic.

It probably depends how 'disposable' you consider your equipment. And if at any point Russia needs its tanks to be tanks you might somewhat embarrassed if your barrels are either now so inaccurate you need to fire more shells than normal to be sure of a hit on average or indeed completely trashed and your tank effectively worthless.

Also static artillery is one thing you don't want to be given the Ukrainians apparent abilities in the realm of counter-battery fire and drone warfare.

The tank is still a tank argument has some merit but I think falls off drastically if your facing off against someone with any kind of technological edge.

I guess you could use the T-54s with tank riders as infantry support vehicles, the mistake would be thinking of them as tanks.

Soviet tanks don't have auxiliary power units so need to run the engine to charge the batteries. This and any scooting after shooting will use a lot of fuel, as would using them as infantry support vehicles. Remember it is not the amount of fuel Russia has, but, how much they can get to the front.

The Russians are probably pulling anything out of storage that works first, so they may have run out of T-62s that don't need to be fixed. This probably didn't include any meant for Syria as these were delivered earlier. Their estimates of the number of T-62s they can refurbish, 800 in 3 years, was probably based on the easiest to fix. Their production rate will probably fall as the quality of tanks they tow from storage declines.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

The diversity of the vehicle park on both sides of this conflict seems to be growing almost month by month.

One day, it might give an excuse for wargamers to field rather eclectic mixtures of vehicles on the tabletop (personally, I am not really into gaming post-1989 historical conflicts, but that is another issue).

It does seem a bit strange to use such old tanks if they're fixing up more recent ones. Whilst any tank is better than no tank, you still need crews. Those crews will know their ride for what it is.

Crew availability is an interesting issue, though – I presume that the Russian military has not been training (m)any crews in the finer aspects of T-54/55 maintenance and operation in the recent years, so they may need to organise a crash course for whoever gets assigned to operate these steel beasts.

Also wondering about 'loaders' I'm guessing there is probably a little bit more to it than just shoving a shell into the breach as quickly as you can. Though frankly I could all too easily see Russian tank crews just being issued an extra random mobnik or may be a random artilleryman, who doesn't need to told which way round the shell goes in, if they are lucky….

Interesting discussion, thanks guys.

I can't wait till T-34s and IS-2s come out sometime in the fall so my extensive ww2 armor collection can be used for ultramodern gaming.

Question for the treadheads: Just how far back does the Russian stockpile go? What's the oldest tank (in meaningful quantity) that they have in mothballs as a mobilization asset?

I thought the t54/55 is about it. They're not so big on maintenance so thousands of parked tanks don't mean thousands of working tanks.

Good question. IIRC the based on the Military Balance figures which everyone seems to use as a bench mark, T-72 was the oldest on the official reserve list, but then T-62 started turning up and now T-54/5. The BTR-50's aren't on it either I think. My guess is the Russians may themselves not be that sure. I personally wonder if the older stuff wasn't actually scrapped because of the potential to supply client states with up-graded versions. The T-62s initially sent to Ukraine were being refitted for sending to Syria. But an additional complication is that the Russian were often continually upgrading their tanks. The T-54Bs were being upgraded until the 1990s – no doubt for the poor sods destined for low readiness cat 3 divisions. So they could be 'more recent' than some of the older T-72 variants!

After rolling out the T-54s – but before rolling out the T-34s – would they not roll out the JS – 3s. If they are going back in time in order. Wonder if there are any BT-7s left?

I'd think realistically probably the T-54/55 would be the oldest MBT. That we may see in any numbers.

However, for AFVs to be usable, they must be properly maintained, have well trained crews plus good leadership. So far, the Russians are marginal at best in all those areas.

A thread about problems with Russian defence production by Patricia Marins, Mar 24, 2023.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

I was talking to a guy who recently returned from Ukraine. He served as a tanker under contract.
Among other things, I asked him how the old tanks are used. His version is like this. Now both sides of the conflict are saturated with counter-battery radars. The enemy can return fire just a couple of minutes after the salvo. And with high precision. But such radars mainly detect only the artillery that fires along a ballistic trajectory. Artillery using a flat firing trajectory remains invisible to such radars. Therefore, both sides are actively using tanks as "nomad guns". The tank enters a position for firing in its own rear, makes three to five shots and immediately leaves its position. Return fire either does not open at all, since the location of the tank could not be found, or this fire is delayed. The tank usually does not fire at any specific target, it simply fires at enemy positions – it conducts "harassing" fire. Accordingly, the presence of perfect aiming systems for him is not fundamental.
But with this method, there is a significant problem – gun barrels with a flat firing trajectory wear out much faster than gun barrels with a ballistic trajectory. Spending the resource of the barrels of modern tanks on such tactics is extremely wasteful. Therefore, for such actions, tanks of old systems are sent to the troops. In addition, these tanks use non-standard ammunition of old calibers, which is preferable to use in the first place.
Thus, the resource of modern tanks is preserved and their ammunition is saved.

"Wonder if there are any BT-7s left?"

There's at least 1 functional KV-2 left, I'm sure they could find a use for it. Maybe they'll go back to the red forest and pull out all those irradiated ISU-152s laying about.

Clash Report, Mar 30, 2023

Uralvagonzavod have had an offering for a while for upgraded T-55 tanks for foreign buyers. If the T-54/55 had a thermal site it would be a much more useful tank, but, Russia does not have the industrial capacity to do this for many old T-72, T-62 & T54/55 tanks.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Good intel Cuprum.

British intelligence estimates that Russia has lost a lot of their counter battery radars. And therefore have a very low level of effective counter battery fire.

There are numerous reports of Ukrainian artillery units staying in the same fireposition for days even weeks, obviously they are not scared of counter battery fire at all…

Using tanks for artillery fire is severely retarded. Tanks make for lousy artillery fire vehicles. Sure they can lob a HE round in the general direction of the enemy and might even hit a field somewhere but tactically or strategically it is of no consequence. A round that does not hit anything is just loud noise.

"Harassing fire" is hardly harassing if it is not close enough and tanks cannot hit close enough.

Bringing in T55 is a sign of desperation, not some smart move because of "ammunition" or "saving more modern tanks" or something like that.

Remember that the reason for bringing in the T62 was that they were particularly suited for urban warfare… (yeah right…) They (T62) have not really excelled in any urban fighting in Ukraine…

So far Russia has failed in everything except committing war crimes. The initial invasion was a failure (especially the heavy tank units around Kiev and Charkiv). The Donbass offensive in the summer was not very successful.

Then the severe spanking of Russians around Kupiansk and later around Cherson. Russian offensive in Bakmut have not generated much. The attacks around Vuhledar was total failure.

But when the ukraianans go on the offensive it will still be hard fighting. Defense is easier than offense and minefields will take a heavy toll on the Ukrainians. And most certainly alot of the Western tanks will be knocked out, such is war. But in the end I believe Ukraine will prevail and succeed.

If the war ends after all Russians are expelled from Ukraine remains to be seen. Maybe Russia will want to continue the war? The War is not over until one side accepts defeat…

soledad +1