"Pakistan offers to transfer 44 T-80UD tanks to Ukraine" Topic

"Pakistan offers to transfer 44 T-80UD tanks to Ukraine in exchange of financial assistance.

According to information published on the Russian social network VK on March 10, 2023, citing Pakistani media reports, Pakistan plans to transfer 44 T-80UD main battle tanks {made in Ukraine} to Ukraine in exchange for financial assistance from Western countries"
armyrecognition, 11 MARCH 2023.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Well suited to Ukraine's training and logistics than the hodgepodge of Western vehicles. NATO and the US should go on a shopping and swapping spree with nations that use Soviet/Russian equipment and ship that gear to Ukraine for $$$ and newer AFVs. Collectively, these counties could transfer thousands of tanks, APCs and other APCs. Yes, many will be T62s, T72s and T80s -- but in the day of the modern top-attack ATGM, even the most advanced tank is in danger.

Algeria
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India
Iraq
Kenya
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Well that is a good deal. The Ukrainian crews will take little training to those. They have the Log support for Russian designed vehicles …

My question … Will those Pak T-80s get there before US/NATO MBTs ? I'm betting yes … IMO the US & NATO are dragging their feet. I don't know why ?

It would seem odd that Pakistan, as an ally of China, would transfer tanks to Ukraine.
As to foot dragging in transferring Western tanks to Ukraine, there is concern of Ukraine going on an offensive and taking the war into Russia. An offensive into Russian territory may be a good tactical idea but likely a very bad one strategically.

They need money, shaky economy. Their frontline MBTs are Chinese.

f NATO and the US should go on a shopping and swapping spree

Yep the credit card has no limit.

Pakistan is probably also thinking it gets back in the US good graces, especially with a stronger India on the border. That whole Bin Laden and safe haven ickiness.

Yes, they feel caught in the middle, a tricky game.

Daemon +1

don't want to win the war. That would be terrible!

there is concern of Ukraine going on an offensive and taking the war into Russia

I highly doubt the Ukraine wants to or would think about going into Russia. They must remember WWII.

An offensive into Russian territory may be a good tactical idea but likely a very bad one strategically.

I'd think it would be a bad idea either way. In reality, IMO they will have a hard fight pushing the Russians out of Ukraine. Which I believe they will. But Russian incompetence is massive. And the Ukrainian Forces best them in most engagements. But they are fighting on their own turf. They have home court advantage. Crossing into Russia would be a very bad idea.

My question … Will those Pak T-80s get there before US/NATO MBTs ?

Assuming that their delivery is still in the planning stage, I would presume that it would take quite some time to get them to harbour, load them to a ship, sail them from the Indian Ocean to the Baltic Sea, unload them in a German or Polish harbour and then transport them over land to Ukraine.

As for tanks from NATO countries, many eastern NATO members were already sending some of their tanks to Ukraine last year, though these tended to be Soviet-era models that they still had in stock (though in several cases in modernised form).

As for modern western NATO tanks (Leopard 2, Challnger 2, M1 Abrams), of which a decision was taken earlier this year to send them to Ukraine, it is worth keeping in mind that the Ukrainian military will not be able to utilise these effectively until they also have trained crews for them.

According to recent news, the first batch of Ukrainian Leopard 2 crews has just completed their six week intensive training in Germany and will returning to Ukraine soon. In the meanwhile, the first lot of Leopard 2 tanks should arrive in Ukraine this month.

I guess Pakistan wants to dump its T80s and transition to western style tanks. The Ukraine war has once again proved that Russian tanks are not very good.

I belive Ukraine will ned a few more weeks of training before they can use modern western tanks really effectively. The crews might be trained but it always take a few weeks of intensive training to "get a good feel" for how to perform effectively with these vehicles.

Pakistan is pretty deeply invested in Chinese tank designs, so I doubt they are doing an about face and going western. This would be a colossal undertaking. More likely they are getting rid of spare tanks that are unallocated (Pakistan has over 300 T-80s)

Damon.

Pakistan is pretty deeply invested in Chinese tank designs

Actually so invested that they have local defense industry building local versions based on several of those designs (and about to start building yet another one). Assuming they can build all of the components locally (including electronics), that would make them moderately self-sufficient in terms of tank production.

Would any western companies or governments consider giving Pakistan similar lisence these days?

This is another possible war zone. There is long – standing tension between India and the other two. India will surpass China in population this year. They are big rivals and the border is a major issue. Desolate and ill defined. Troops have regular run-ins They all have nukes.

Assuming that their delivery is still in the planning stage, I would presume that it would take quite some time to get them to harbour, load them to a ship, sail them from the Indian Ocean to the Baltic Sea, unload them in a German or Polish harbour and then transport them over land to Ukraine.

Well we moved our MBTs, APCs, etc. from the Ft. Benning, GA, USA to [West]Germany including railhead to port. Load aboard ship, cross the Atlantic, land at Antwerp, load'm up on rail cars to railhead in [West]Germany. We got that all done in about 6-8 weeks, plus or minus. The same could happen from the US to Ukraine.

There are also US M1s in German … that would take a few weeks at best to get them to Ukraine.

As for tanks from NATO countries, many eastern NATO members were already sending some of their tanks to Ukraine last year, though these tended to be Soviet-era models that they still had in stock (though in several cases in modernised form).

AFAIK much/most of the former WP[now NATO] Russian equipment has been sent to the Ukraine. However, Poland is going to send'm about 12 SU-29s.

it is worth keeping in mind that the Ukrainian military will not be able to utilise these effectively until they also have trained crews for them.

Well that is always the case with new equipment. Hence it was called "New Equipment Training" i.e. NET. E.g. tank crews that got new MBTs to replace their old MBTs i.e. M60s replaced with M1s. NET would probably take be about 6-8 weeks AFAIK. Plus, the Maint. Tms had to be trained too. So once those MBTs crews & Maint. Tms etc. completed NET they could be sent to the front again probably 6-8 weeks, plus or minus…

So if the US & NATO got off their collective s … Those MBTs, etc. could be there or on the way.

are the bradleys there yet ?
are the german marders there yet ?
if they are how are they doing?

AFAIK they have not arrived yet. Nor the French AMX-10 RCs. However, I believe with the even poorer quality of the Russian Infantry and AFV crews, etc. than that crossed the border a year ago. Once all the US, NATO, etc. support gets there, and the Ukraine will go on a general offensive. I believe the 2d rate Russian military will not be able to hold any of the territory they occupy in the Ukraine. Including Crimea …

But it will be a bloody operation as Putin will certainly not want to give up Crimea. Not to be too "dramatic", but many Russians and yes Ukrainians will die. To get Putin/Russia out of territory that does not belong to them …