"Navy Renaming USS Chancellorsville" Topic

Bill +1

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____________________ have been shown to be less than honest multiple times.

You can put a number of names in those blanks. From various corners … most in the media i.e. MSNBC, The View, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, many newspapers, magazines plus many, many, many of our elected and appointed officials, intellectuals, academics, the woke, CRT/1619 & DEI activists, BLM, Antifa, etc., etc., etc.

"People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." …

Oh yes, other groups I don't support and never did or will – Neo-Nazi, KKK, White Supremacists, … if I say any more I'll be DH'd …

Legion and Bill +1 This like so many things going on lately are vendettas. We could do a litany of lies and half truths from the others, but to what point?

lies and half truths from the others, but to what point?

The point – ratings & getting elected …

____________________ have been shown to be less than honest multiple times.

Just heard on the news. The past Admin is being blamed for the A'stan debacle by those currently in power from the top. Talk about the BIG LIE ! It's right out of Orwell's 1984.

I've discussed this many times before about the A'stan Debacle. So, most of you know what I would say. 'nuff said. <avoiding DH>

Oh … wait … what does this all have to do with changing the Chancellorsville's name ?

Short answer = 0 …

This was about a legitimate opinion and facts based on major developments in a case that has a strong bearing on how millions of people see this country. It relates to nearly everything we discuss on this board. I had already referenced that there were issues with other media outlets also, freely acknowledged.

But this was not about them this time. It was about this particular case, which is atypical and of major importance in how we understand and learn about many of the issues we discuss here. Institutionalized pessimism and negativity are driving profits. But the cost is too high. We attack perceived bias with more bias at our peril.

This is a private forum and the expression of opinion is at the discretion of the owner. I understood and submitted to this. But I also have a choice here.

Perhaps when and if the report is released to the public opinions on who to blame for the withdrawal should be tempered.

The .pdf put out yesterday was very "1984" Orwellian in its composition. George would have been so proud. I did not save the .pdf.

I guess if you rewrite history enough, someone will believe it.

"There's a sucker born every minute"

But it rings true here.

Didn't See It': White House Spokesman Says Administration ‘Proud' of Afghanistan Withdrawal

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(From 2021)
Subject: Top generals contradict Biden, say they urged him not to withdraw from Afghanistan


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The last administation did negotiate with the Taliban and agree to withdraw.

I can't see the last administration do any better than the current one did. The last administration was littered with incompetents from the top down.

But The last administration did not run away. That would be the current one.

They can decry that this was Trumps fault until the cows come home, but the POTUS and his administration did not have any problems reversing every previous executive order of Trumps, or his agreements in their first months in office. Pipelines, borders, agreements with Mexico, Iran, oil companies… need I go on? Crying "This was the one agreement they "had to abide by", is well, laughable.

The POTUS wanted out. He had promised it and adhering to the previous agreement gave him the cover he was looking for.

The Taliban was back in the cities, not the mountains. Just telling them we would not leave until we had everything out, or we would bomb them back into the mountains again, would have been enough. A small increase in troops If necessary would have been sufficient to guarantee it. You still could have left afterwards, but with our equipment, pallets of money, our troops and our allies. All and our countries dignity.

This rout was a cluster ####! Of course that is in my and many, many other opinions.

Just FYI … GOP wants Woke out of the Military. About ing time … link From Military.com … a very reliable source.

OVI + 10

Perhaps when and if the report is released to the public opinions on who to blame for the withdrawal should be tempered.

We know who to blame. The current admin in the WH did NOT listen to the Military and Intel advisors. The fingers only one way. At the very, very Top …

The former USN ADM that briefed this pack of lies yesterday should be embarrassed. At the lies he repeated from the current admin. Many other Vets and Active Duty know the A'stan evac was a debacle beyond belief. He said he saw no chaos ??!?!?!?!? It was nothing but chaos !!!!

For Vets like myself, e.g. that was an Army Infantry Officer and Bn Air Ops Officer, etc. in the 101, etc. It was clear NO officer would have told the Admin to abandon Bagram. Nor pulling our troops out BEFORE our civilian personnel and those Afghans that assisted the US.

The former USN ADM holds 0 credibility with defending these lies. The current admin is blaming the last one. Are you ing kidding me ?!!?!?

The last Admin had nothing to do with this massive Cluster !

#1 was abandoning Bagram by withdrawing all our troops from A'stan. Leaving all the Embassy, etc. civilians, etc. behind. WDF !?!?!?

If you don't know why the heavily fortified Bagram Airbase was so important than you shouldn't even be in this conversion.

#2 Not telling our NATO allies or the ANA/ANP we were leaving.

#3 The Taliban/islamic jihadis released all their brethren in prison camps they were held in. There were no guards. The USA was gone. The ISIS suicide bomber was one of the islamic terrorists that was released. Killing 13 good Americans plus many more WIA. Along with many, many Afghans …

The USMC Sniper Tm that ID'd the bomber was denied the authorization to kill the ISIS bomber. The Snipers BN Cdr couldn't even give him the "Green Light" to kill this ISIS terrorist(?!?!?!?!?!?!?). As the ROE must have been way too tight. That ROE comes from the very, very, Top.

#4 The US had to send troops back to get all the Embassy, etc. personnel out. By that time the fortified Bagram Airbase, the only place you could successfully evac from, was occupied by the Taliban.

The 82d Cdr said he'd drop in a Bde + to recapture it. That was denied by the Admin.

The Airport next to Kabul was one of the worst places to do the evac. It is next to an enemy occupied city.

And the current admin says they are proud of this cluster ? OMG !!!

A former UK COL in A'stan was interviewed on FOX said what should happen to the CinC. But he and we know the CinC can't be Court Martialed. However, we all know what should happen. Along with firing the civilians appointed and elected members of the Admin that told the CinC to abandon Bagram, not to listen to the Military etc., etc.

BTW this is not the only AAR, etc. that was done by the Military and other Gov't agencies that blamed the CinC and his admin. For this most embarrassing debacle for US Military in decades.

The US debacle in withdrawing from A'stan. Only emboldened Putin to invade the Ukraine. As he believed the US leadership was not determined enough, etc. to do anything to defend the Ukraine, etc.

Xi, Un and Iran, etc., took note … they didn't fear nor respect the US. Predators like Putin, Xi, Un, Iran's Imams/IRCG, etc. know and sense weakness.

Not to mention the billons of $ of all types of equipment that the US left behind. It took a very long time to get all that equipment there. There would have been no real way to get it most of it out. The ANA/ANP were supposed to be using it. We would have had send in airstrikes to destroy much of it. But with no US aircraft at Bagram since it was abandoned. The outcome was obvious.

From Military.com … a very reliable source.

Actually, except for the straight military articles, I think Military.com leans a bit to the left.

You may be correct Bill. Yes, pretty much everything I read there from a Military POV seems accurate AFAIK. However, I may have noticed a little left biased, but I almost expect that from the media. Almost across the board.

Seems like this thread should have been in the modern naval section. It is a ship currently in active service, not an ironclad or steam frigate. Oh, because it's a civil war name? Because that's what you are talking about now, in the Civil War section right?

I think threads that go too far off topic should be re-assigned like other forums do. It's a great policy and keeps the forum as a whole from disintegrating under a pile of OT posts.

Well this is another post where some strong feelings and attitudes came out.

For me, this thread went too far, but not in the way you may think, and it seems like it might be the end for me here. In the broadest sense, it was not off topic with regard to the Dominion lawsuit, which spoke to the way people become informed about all kinds of things, including many things we speak of here.

As much as I dislike CNN and especially the tone of MSNBC, I have never listened to employees of a news network that is the main source of information for many people sound so greedy and cynical behind the scenes as at Fox. Of course they bought their way out of a trial. And they made sure their viewers learned almost no details about the issues.

Whataboutism doesn't cut it here. We can talk about the others, but it does not answer the impact of Fox's conduct, which in scope and scale and impact is clearly historic.

As an aside, Carlson's work appearing on Russian state tv has an impact on the war, a war which we discuss at length. The weakness of Biden is often mentioned here, but the role of the angry, undermining transition of power and 1/6 not so much. Seeing dissidents breaking into the Capitol of the United States – did it embolden Putin to plan his invasion, realizing that internal chaos in the US would hamper a unified response?
I am not trying to start or restart a discussion. But this thread gave me insights I had not fully understood. I have a Dawghouse too, and I just put myself right back in it.

weakness of Biden is often mentioned here

There is a reason for that … If is walks like a duck & quacks like a duck …🦆

Seeing dissidents breaking into the Capitol of the United States – did it embolden Putin to plan his invasion, realizing that internal chaos in the US would hamper a unified response?

No IMO, Putin was emboldened by the A'stan debacle to invade Ukraine. Plus, as he built up his forces for months before the invasion. There was little to no real effective US response. Not even any Red Lines drawn in the sand like with Obama. Of course, those Red Lines meant 0 too …

IMO the 1/6 riot was just an appetizer for Putin … the main course was the A'stan debacle.

Of course, we have discussed this all before …

Legion: All the best to you, my friend, 35th too, and sincere thanks for your service. Bless this nation…

Thank you Sir … 👍👍

Thanks and Take care Tort. 🙂

Renaming Ft. A.P. Hill. If posts are going to have to be renamed, so far, some pretty good choices, IMO. Save for Ft. Liberty, NC. Should have been GEN Ridgeway or Gavin, IMO.

But we can't forget our history … all of it … regardless …

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While the US Military is busy renaming posts and ships. And spending a lot of $ to do it. As well paying for illegal aliens, questionable Green projects like sending $ to other nations to help them go Green, etc., etc.

The US Military troops' barracks & family housing are in deplorable conditions. Even the 1st Cav was having problems feeding their own troops.

Once again, priorities … Seems the US Military is not one of them. Who in the military dropped the ball on this ? This is despicable ! My 1st SGT and Plt SGTs, as well the Bn & Bde SGMs would be ripping bricks out of the wall. If this sort of thing occurred.

Congress is finally getting involved. Better late than not at all. But all military leaders know one of many priorities is to take care of the troops and their families.

Have things changed that much ?

From Military.com

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No things haven't and that's the problem. This did not just start up because Biden was elected. IMO Congress has not addressed this as they should have, both parties, despite a sub committee being created to oversee it. Both single member and family housing and barracks were in bad shape in the last admin as well.

The DOD budget is too top heavy in equipment development and production because the Congress is heavily influenced by lobbyists and the golden goose of winning big contacts for their districts.This ensures their re-election. They have forced the Navy to retain defective ships to keep federal dollars flowing in Jacksonville, for example.

The Army and the other services are not innocent in all this. There must be chain of command issues somewhere. The commands are charged with a duty to sustain proper conditions on bases, Congress did earmark about 10 billion to address this two years ago.

In such a gigantic military bureaucracy, Trump and Biden would not personally manage these issues. And political generals jockeying for promotions may lose their focus. Base commanders may fear losing their posts. But orders from the top may be needed to fix this.
This is one case where blame must stretch far and wide. When there is not enough food available at a base, you don't normally call the President. Somebody needs to do their job.

No matter, it's time for reform. How the @#$& can we recruit the best people otherwise?

We have talked about the food issue at Fort Cavazos a few weeks ago. Here is what the army says now. link
It does not sound like much of a solution. But do we think the Army has addressed the issues?

I am not saying the Army's leadership does not bare some fault. What they did at Cavazos was better than nothing. However, I can't imagine any of this happening when I was on Active Duty, decades ago. As I said, if the officers did not get on this ASAP, the NCOs would. This situation with barracks, family housing and food IMO is unbelievable. What changed with the US military ? I really don't know, I'm confused. This whole set of problems is unthinkable …

I don't know. It is a heartbreaker to see the worlds richest country not taking proper care of its soldiers. It should not have anything to do with politics.

There is much more tech, less middle class, more rich people, less of the old values, more distractions, less recruits, more chaos. But who knows what impact this has had?

Again, IMO this situation in the US Military is unacceptable …

And they addressed it.

link

Now I am wondering why the original article did not bother to check with the fort on this.

Don't know why it was not reported. I will look on Military.com again …

Just hoping it was not as bad as the first article seemed to say. There are always snafus, but this one seemed huge, without being addressed properly.

Was at conference with RET and former officers most of the weekend at the nearby USAFR C-130 base. 1 ADM, 4 GENs, dozens of LTCs & COL. We talked about the 1CAV's chow the barracks and family hosing of all the posts. They were as mad about this as I was. We just can't get why the NCOs and Jr Officers let this these things happen. None of this would have happen when we were on Active Duty. We really think not only were the officers not looking out for the troops & their families but the NCOs were not doing their jobs.

We think too much politics, woke, DEI, CRT, pronouns, etc. BS. And not enough real soldiering going on but the priorities starting from the top are not geared to the military … I've said something like this before here. But this coming from senior retired Flag Officers COLs and LTCs. The nation is suffering from real leadership from the top down. And no one had anything good to say about Milley. 'nuff said …

The leadership crisis is real. Not enough anywhere, politics and the military not attracting the right stuff. It sounds like leadership not just from the top down, but up and down the board. As I said before chain of command did not function in this case. This happened because of a breakdown.

I don't think woke training would be connected to the food issue, that is just indifference and /or incompetence. It undermines the entire image the Army needs to project for recruiting.

Again, I am not sure this POTUS or the last one are directly responsible, but they need to pick leadership who can carry out general orders, handle issues effectively, so the buck really does stop with both of them. I would not scapegoat either one. The issues that caused this are broader. And I do not want the Army judged by any POTUS in charge. It's job is to function at a high level under civilian control but without politics regardless of who gets elected. But commanders are political…some training has become political.

And Congress holding up hundreds of promotions so that hundreds of leadership positions can't be refilled, transfers, etc. has hurt admin, weakened us. That was just painful. Issues of leadership at every level.

Yes the food problem has 0 to do with woke, etc. that is a given. No one said that … Regardless, leadership is still a real problem. And again, it starts at the top … The POTUS is CinC. Did our GENs & ADMs let this happen as again priorities are not where they should be? Why did the Jr. officers and senior NCOs allow this to happen?

Any training that became political, woke, etc. should have been put off to the side, IMO. By those at the Plt., Co. level … I have heard everyone is afraid they will get fired because they are not following the "party line" … And that was from those on active duty. Even at least one 2 Star GEN. I know.

The US Military has become political & woke. And not a lethal killing machine. And again, Xi, Putin, etc. know it.

In China's military not following the party line means you are not around anymore. Putin's as well, I think.

Legion are you saying the command structure has been weakened by poor training priorities? You are talking to professionals who have seen things.

We are losing sight of merit in assessing and training soldiers. Merit solves both discrimination and the perceived need for woke.

Yes, these senior officers from all branches basically said and even I can see things are not right. Poor priorities from higher is a big part of it. I've said that before of course. E.g. you saw what Milley set for an example … a poor example at that. Compounded by poor direction from the top. That is activist, agenda driven.

It has to be merit driven, not woke, DEI, CRT, etc. Using race, sex, religion, etc. as a discriminator has no place in a merit based system. As the enemy is playing hard ball. Some in charge from the top down are using the military as a social experiment. Pushing the woke, DEI CRT narrative.

IMO they are doing similar to make the USA more socialist. Less of the USA as a capitalistic democracy … Changing history, changing the meaning words and concepts, etc. that defies logic, reason and real science. E.g. Males can have babies … No they can't …

They need to read history and not forget or ignore it …

Legion, perhaps they could have used these billions on the troops serving our country.

"The Pentagon had the highest spending levels, with $1.2 USD billion in new furniture purchases, the group noted."

But I assume it's very important to have the area that they use to make most of their decisions, sit in comfort. 😉

Subject: Feds spent $3.3 USDB on new furniture during COVID pandemic


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Well said Legion. Miley said some strange things during his time that I did not get. If we were to ignore the latest correctness trends and just go with merit we would be better off, as long as discrimination is not tolerated. Enforce existing military law.

The socialist trend began long ago. Think of tobacco subsidies. Or..around 2019, the private elite Ivy League universities got 10 billion in subsidies. Thousands of examples. Tax revenue from states is redistributed as subsidies all the time. This is not always a bad thing. We are still capitalist in basic structure. But we need more balance, less corruption.

The chairs remind me of the $10,000 USD toilet seats. Perhaps there are stealth chairs for DOD.

Our military seems to have evolved into that of France in 1940. Competent individual soldiers with good equipment, led by a politicized officer corps more concerned about getting their next promotion and sucking up to the powers that be than on warfighting and readiness, which hurts the morale of the soldiers, and who seem unable to move quickly and decisively to changing events.

But I assume it's very important to have the area that they use to make most of their decisions, sit in comfort.

When I took command of a Mech Infantry Co., '87-'89, new furniture for the day room was on back order. When I turned over my Mech Co. 18 months later. The furniture was still on back order. No matter how many times we checked, tried to speed up delivery, etc. If I had the money, I would have bought some myself from Sears, etc.

However, I was short some weapons, NVGs, etc. those should have taken priority. But after 18 months those never came either.

The chairs remind me of the $10,000 USD USD toilet seats. Perhaps there are stealth chairs for DOD.

Well rumor was the toilet seats, or hammers, or whatever it was, were $30 USD-$40. The rest went to Black Ops … Who knows ?

Our military seems to have evolved into that of France in 1940. Competent individual soldiers with good equipment, led by a politicized officer corps more concerned about getting their next promotion and sucking up to the powers that be than on warfighting and readiness, which hurts the morale of the soldiers, and who seem unable to move quickly and decisively to changing events.

YES exactly !!!!

Those "$10,000 toilet seats" were for an airplane. They had to work when the plane was maneuvering violently. I for one cannot imagine the engineering needed for that.

Well … what do they use on the ISS ?

But yes, I have no idea what engineering it would take. To make this work …

But that price seems a bit high …

Murvihill, I hear what you are saying, I suppose I would not want to be sitting on one as the aircraft does a loop. Of course I would already be scared @#$&less anyway.

I too was the victim of big furniture spending while in government service. My government vehicle was not like those shiny new product placements seen on tv, it was a wreck – partly my fault, but it was also my workplace – yet I could not get it replaced. While the big bosses enjoyed new luxurious office furniture routinely.

I am just now realizing that it happens across many agencies and someone should figure out just how much is spent on furniture. Too much sitting around.

murvihill
"they had to work when the plane was maneuvering violently."
i would have assumed in that situation the crew would be at their stations strapped in (combat)?

I've see a port-a-potty in some of the C-130 flights I was transported by. Don't think I'd want to use it … but what choice do you have on long flights … " happens!"

I don't think we can strap those on to any combat aircraft. 🤔. My dad had a tube with a bag in the ball turret of his B17. They tried not to eat much before take off and nobody ate the sandwiches on the aircraft until they were back over the Alps for the run home. It was extremely and dangerously cold, electrically heated flight suits, you didn't want to expose too much, so best not to have to go. The tubes and bags were infamous for mishaps, but everything froze very fast.

Yeah … better to fly commercial …

Your father was part of the Greatest Generation as was mine … God Bless Them All …

Amen…