"Navy Renaming USS Chancellorsville" Topic

I didn't say that and I was not inferring that it was an 'equation.' Perhaps you might like to read the two books that I suggested.

Then what exactly are you saying? From what I read you seem to to making a direct link between Lost Cause and monuments. As I said above, that is probably true in some cases but as a general argument I think it is weak.

As a more general reflection on the Lost Cause narrative it seems more a fictive Northern creation to me and a way to dismiss any redeeming qualities or motives of the South than a serious historical argument. As I have argued many times, people's motives are complex and, at times, difficult to completely understand. Reducing these complex motives to tropes is anti-historical and I reject them categorically.

youtu.be/sXMyXypjmGM

Then again, I suggest that you take a look at the two references on the 'Lost Cause' that I posted. They are quite informative and very well done, especially the volume by Gallagher and Nolan.

Some of the points raised by the authors are:

-‘The victim of the Lost Cause legend has been history, for which the legend has been substituted in the national memory.'-14.

-The Southern adherents to the Lost Cause found an unjustified ‘need to justify the existence of slavery…even before the abolitionist attack from the North, Southerners began the defense of slavery as a social system that provided unique benefits, both for the slaves whom it placed under the fatherly care of a superior race and for the master who was given freedom from toil necessary to the creation of a superior culture.'-14.

-‘…the Southerners contention that slavery had nothing to do with the war was widely accepted in the postwar North and became part of the Civil War legend in the popular mind.'-20.

The Lost Cause 'narrative' was not a 'northern creation', but a southern one to offer excuses for being completely defeated.

Whether or not you reject them is immaterial. When the topic is researched the outcome is somewhat different.

I y'all do not mind some constructive criticism; there is a bit of talking past each other in this and other related threads. Working to remedy that would help the conversation. Usually the best way is to point out when it happens and amiably make clear your own focus.

I know, all of this is technically related. But trying to debate all of these finer points simultaneously is rather like the ostrich swallowing the clock. In the meantime comes the collective risk of sounding more like Buddy Hackett and Ethel Merman rather than military historians.

Buddy Hackett and Ethel Merman

I loved them !!!!

I just finished reading Clifford Dowdey's "Lee's Last Campaign." It was enjoyable to read this book right after reading Bruce Catton's "Grant Takes Command" since the two books overlap a great deal in the material. Of course, one author looks at the story of the Overland campaign through the eyes of Grant and the other Lee. In the Appendix, Dowdey notes that there is inherent bias in the Civil War narrative towards the North or Union perspective. This narrative form is considered the default and then someone like Dowdey is considered to be arguing from a Southern point of view. Dowdey notes that these "Northern critics" don't even seem able to recognize their own narrative bias. This observation was written in 1960. I think matters have only gotten worse.

So we have a Lost Cause narrative without the compensatory "Just Cause" narrative (where everything the Union/North does is done for noble or altruistic motives) being recognized. When I get a chance I am going to start a new subject comparing the Lost Cause Myth to the Just Cause Myth that I see in so many comments on this Forum.

Ethel Merman was the best, "It's okay, she's with us…"

I think the topic Reasons for Secession could be stripped down to the studs for analysis, at least for TMP consumption. I will create a thread for that, starting with a particular state (gotta start somewhere).

As for the OP, the near instant dive into underlying themes means there are other things to work out first. It's obviously an emotionally charged subject.

Probably unfair to both, but at least equal treatment.

During the Centennial years, when it seemed like time stood still and it was always not yet two o'clock on that July afternoon in 1863, I found the dashing Rebs with all their determination, military cunning, and charismatic leaders, much more compelling than the stodgy, incompetent Yankees. Grant was a drinker and a butcher. I read a lot, but I never heard of the 54th Massachusetts even though I was a Yankee. And none of us wanted to be the Yankees with our Marx toy soldiers. I saw Gone with the Wind for the first time. And Stonewall could do no wrong, Lee was a god. Stuart was the ultimate cavalier. Heroes…

I can see now where some northern critics might have been coming from in 1960. It took Catton's AOP trilogy for me to get the first inkling of what a writer who had actually spoken to Yankee soldiers thought about the less flashy northerners.And how the war came to be about something more than states rights and secession. As Catton later said, slavery underlay everything about those times.

Tort, I always wanted to be the Union. 🙂Marx and all.

Anyway, on March 2 in this thread I printed links showing the slippery slope all these are leading to. In just 6 days we have this much more reported.

Subject: Massachusetts residents demand changes to state flag over ‘White supremacy culture' in new resolution

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Subject: Massachusetts State Flag Lands In Middle of Culture Wars

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Subject: Bird dropping: Portland conservation group abandons ‘Audubon' over history of ‘racism'


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Subject: Disneyland removes controversial 'zip-a-dee-doo-dah' lyric from its parade

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Words can not convey my DISRESPECT for many current attitudes. Best Not to voice!

Yes, 35th, I am very disappointed in the Mass.state flag thing and hoping we at least get to vote on it. The central figure is a Native American warrior, as befits a state where every place name is from England or Native American. Mohicans from the Berkshires fought with Roberts Rangers in the FIW and Washington in the AWI. Because there is a sword above this image in a separate field, it portrays some sort of subjugation in the minds of some. Yikes…

Those Marx figures were my first wargaming figs, after green army men. They were a blast. I also had the Johnny Tremain AWI set, still in the attic somewhere.
Fun times, 35th!

Tort & 35th +1 each …

Ethel Merman was the best, "It's okay, she's with us…"

😄

Tort I had about 6 Marx sets. Loved them as a kid.

I had the battleground set, the Civil War set, the Alamo set, and the Fort Apache set.

All of them were excellent, but I particularly regarded the War II figures, which I have replaced in the last ten years.

Regarding the Civil War set, I have replaced some of it, especially the mortars which were particularly well done, as were the War II crew served weapons.

I did favor the Union troops in the Civil War set.

Knights and Vikings, Alamo, Custer's last stand, WW2, Airport, missing one I can't think of. But in my wars anyone could become some other army when needed. Custer's men, alamo defenders and Mexicans became the Allies in 55 days at Peking and knights, Vikings and Indians became the Chinese. It was always fun.

Sold them all to a Marx collector about 15 years ago.

I kept mine, but they all fought in the Pea Stone wars, a gravel driveway where we took turns throwing little stones at each others lines. They all were nicked up quit a bit, and became uncollectable. Who knew? You can buy recasts for some of them now, but mine have character!

I used marbles, clothes pin and rubber band. I graduated to a dice for normal fire and for cannons I used one of those view master picture disc as a radius indicator and any figure in it that radius that rolled a 5 was wounded and 6 died.
Got the idea from some book that talked about wargames. That was about 11 or so years old. I think I started painting miniatures at 15 or 16. Stopped at 65. A lot of figures painted in those years. Some sold now, some still here.

Yes, the great thing about Catton was that we finally got the Union viewpoint. (And he wrote very well.)

As for a "Just Cause" narrative, I suppose you could call it that. People seem to lose sight of the fact that when we speak of "the UNION" we mean "the United States." My country.

Now, I do not subscribe to "My country right or wrong," but I believe that in the case of the ACW, the USA was right, and the Confederates were wrong.

As for a "Just Cause" narrative, I suppose you could call it that. People seem to lose sight of the fact that when we speak of "the UNION" we mean "the United States." My country.

I find your comment ironic Don because there were a group of Americans who did not want to be part of your country. Yet they were forced to do be so through violent means.

I have been thinking about your point several months back that it was the South that started the war. And that is true. The South fired the first shot. But suppose in the fall of 1861 the South had apologized to the United States and offered financial compensation for the attack. Would the United States have accepted the apology and the money and brought the conflict to an end? I hardly think so. Lincoln had adroitly set up the Fort Sumter scenario and was looking for an excuse to rally the nation against the seceded states. Most wars have a cause but most wars are also resolved through a negotiated peace. It is hard for me to believe that the North would have accepted anything short of complete victory (ie. there would be no real negotiation.)

I had about 6 Marx sets.

I had more than that ! I got my cousins' stuff too !

Loved them as a kid.

You got that right !

Some interesting comments … about the ACW. But like many things, even with history there are many opinions, ideas, concepts, etc. E.g.:

As for a "Just Cause" narrative, I suppose you could call it that. People seem to lose sight of the fact that when we speak of "the UNION" we mean "the United States." My country.

Verses

because there were a group of Americans who did not want to be part of your country. Yet they were forced to do be so through violent means.

Equals = Civil War.

Bottom line, IMO[and many smarter than I], Lincoln knew his job was to keep the US as a whole. One nation …

Now over 160 years later. The current talk is renaming locations, ships, etc. Tearing down statues, probably many of those didn't know who or why. Some saying reparations are in order. Rewriting and/or skewing history, to fit agendas, narrative, etc. Once again does not sound good for the Union. But we will work this out.

Oh IMO, if some want a statue removed, there is a legal way to do it. But it wouldn't have the drama, victimhood, etc. or pushing an agenda, etc.

E.g. the USA is a racists and bigoted country …

Guys I can't make stuff up. Where and when does this stop. This was today.

"Michael Caine recently told The Spectator (via IndieWire) that it's "bullshit" his 1964 war epic "Zulu" was cited on a recent United Kingdom counter-terrorism report. The controversial Prevent strategy flagged a handful of popular films, British sitcoms, works of literature and more as possible sources of inspiration for terrorist groups and far-right extremists. "Zulu" was cited alongside "The Bridge on the River Kwai," "Brave New World," "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy" and the BBC's original "House of Cards," among other titles.

"That is the biggest load of I have ever heard," Caine said bluntly when told the news about "Zulu" being classified as a "key text" for "white nationalists and supremacists."" is

Subject: Michael Caine Slams U.K. Report Claiming ‘Zulu' Could Incite Terrorists and Far-Right Extremists: ‘Biggest Load of Bulls—‘


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The irony of it all is that Zulu was a beautiful film that depicted both sides with great respect. It was truly unique in its time. The final scene when Michael Caine's character thinks that the Zulu singing is meant to mock the British soldiers when in fact (as his Boer companion laughingly corrects him) it was to salute them as great warriors was a beautiful moment of cultural humility. How easy it is to misinterpret each other.

The irony is how far down the pike this has all led in so short a time. It is truly sad and ridiculous. They should be laughed at and shown the door.

Don't forget that Stanley Baker punched white folks out and had them fired from Zulu for rascim, Sir Micheal Caine refused any work in any segregated country afterwords. It disgusted him.

I have seen Zulu many times. I am no fan of British imperialism, but I loved that the film was about rank and file soldiers and a couple of inexperienced field officers in a tight spot. And the Zulus got full respect from Baker. A great movie.

Yes we have been going too far in my opinion, but what started all this is that we had been sweeping a lot of history under the rug. I never knew a thing about Tulsa and the other massacres of the 1920s, the intolerance of Woodrow Wilson to name a couple of things, the extent of the suffering that slavery brought.
In other words, having gone too far in the opposite direction, we have swung back now past the point of reason in some cases.

You have to laugh or cry. 'Zulu' Honoured BOTH sides. to be respected. One side lost.. yeah 'Patriotic 'BS.. did not 'Put Down' Zulus! Far from it ! Reality… a bit different Later,.WE shot pretty much everyone! Not a GOOD thing just 'History''

Marcus Brutus +1

More on Michael Caine and 'Zulu':

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Michael Caine's comment is right on the money.

And again it's not just Zulu.

"Zulu" was cited alongside "The Bridge on the River Kwai," "Brave New World," "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy" and the BBC's original "House of Cards," among other titles.

The link that Brechtel shared also adds in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings and William Shakespeare. We are in the midst of a revolution that intends to knock down key vestiges of Western culture.

That seems so very true. Yes many want to not only rewrite our histories. But erase our culture. They want to rewrite James Bond novels, Huck Finn, Little House on the Prairie etc. because something in there might offend someone. Or is not woke, DEI, etc.

Didn't that happen in Orwell's 1984 ?

Didn't Nazis burn books ?

What is that saying ? "Those that don't understand history are doomed to repeat it." … Or something like that …

And it is the radical right that is now banning books…sound familiar?

And the radical left is rewriting and editing them for non-woke content. 😉

Bond, Willy Wonka, Jane Austin, Matilda, The Witches……

But I am truly upset that they found out Frodo, Samwise, Merry and Pippin, were all closet sheet wearers and Gandalf the White was the Grand Kleagle and was crossing Middle Earth recruiting new members. WHO squealed! This could set us back for decades!

Where did that come from?

Perhaps you could link to a source?

Brechtel, which one? LOTR was in response to Marcus Brutus remark

"The link that Brechtel shared also adds in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings and William Shakespeare."

Since the whole "Zulu" thing was about potential "white supremacy", the correlation seemed appropriate. 🙂

Now if you mean the censorship of Bond, Willy Wonka, etc., I believe those links were supplied earlier by me, but I can give them again if you like. The rewriting of Roald Dahl's book, made a lot of web news, Fox, radio, local news. I can't vouch for the MSM on TV.

From a CNN web story

"These revisions have been worked on by "sensitivity readers" from an organization called Inclusive Minds, which describes itself as "a collective for people who are passionate about inclusion, diversity, equality and accessibility in children's literature, and are committed to changing the face of children's books."
In a lengthy report published on Saturday, British newspaper The Daily Telegraph revealed that it had found hundreds of changes across the author's many children's books. Close analysis by its journalists revealed that language relating to gender, race, weight, mental health and violence had been cut or rewritten. This included removing words such as "fat" and "ugly," as well as descriptions using the colors black and white.

Journalists working on the piece found 59 changes in "The Witches" alone, with hundreds more discovered in Dahl's other popular books, such as "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" and "Matilda."

This is my meaning of a slippery slope. It gets out of hand quickly. There will always be a few who will find justification for things like these changes, they are few, but vocal.

Changes like below, which are Silly meaningless, ridiculous changes:

"Many are slight (replacing "old hag" with "old crow") or inscrutable ("taught him how to spell and write sentences" for "volunteered to give him lessons"). Others are needlessly "sensitive" (changing "black" to "dark," even when the connotations are not racial, or "attractive" to "kind") but do not seriously affect the author's meaning. A handful of the edits are unintentionally hilarious: Insisting that "man-eating giant" be replaced with "human-eating giant," as in the new edition of "The BFG," "

They attacked Dr. Suess not that long ago.

Have you ever heard of or read Readers' Digest Condensed Books?

There is an interesting article in the current issue of Time magazine entitled 'Why are Publishers Rewriting Classics?' The author is Armani Syed and it is on page 14.

Here is another article on the same subject:

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This process was in full swing decades ago, as shown in The Language Police: How Pressure Groups Restrict What Students Learn by Diane Ravitch which is an excellent book and should be read not only by every teacher in the US but by all parents with school-age children.

It is an excellent and very informative book. The author rightly takes both the left and the right to task as both sides are guilty of censorship.

And it is getting worse, as witnessed by the conservative administration in Florida. Misuse of the terms 'woke' and 'CTR' has gone completely off the rails.

As a retired teacher, I have real problems with censorship, and had some interesting incidents of it while I was teaching. Teachers should have academic freedom in the classroom and librarians should be in control of what is in their libraries. If you are against any book, then don't read it.

Brechtel due to time constraints, I'll address one.

"As a retired teacher, I have real problems with censorship, and had some interesting incidents of it while I was teaching. Teachers should have academic freedom in the classroom and librarians should be in control of what is in their libraries. If you are against any book, then don't read it."

We disagree. I worked in the private sector. If my company had policies that I disagreed with politically, I could lose my job if I expressed those opposed and they somehow reflected back to the company. So if I said something that offended someone I worked with, let us say on Facebook and was reported back to the company, or sent something on my company email account, I could and people do, lose their jobs. This has gotten much worse recently. I have friends I cannot send political/social emails to now on their work emails, because the companies monitor those emails. They are also are afraid to make their view's public for the same reasons. So if they oppose let us say, a transgender "male" using the women's bathroom. They are afraid that view, if expressed, will come back to the company and they will be disciplined or lose their job.

Teachers work for the taxpayers of the community. It is the taxpayers money and it is "their" children, you teach. So it is and should be, the taxpayers/parents of that community that decide what they believe is appropriate for "their" school. Not the teacher, not the librarian, not the school board. The teacher or librarian, if not happy with that, can leave and go elsewhere. I know there will be those who disagree, but that is my opinion and obviously many, many others.

They are not the teachers or librarians, children.

This all came to a head when covid allowed parents to see what their children were being taught.

In my school board a in 2021 there was a DEI initiative to review every book that was used in this public school system to make sure it conformed to "….consciousness around equity, on oppression work and anti-racist work has grown, we recognize some of the texts and collections that we have are not appropriate at this point". This activity reflects hard a left political philosophy. See the full article here.

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I see a direct connection between historical narratives that attempt to link the ACW exclusively to slavery and the DEI initiative which includes book banning. There is no doubt that slavery was a major factor in the events to led up the Civil War but to make it into primarily a racial struggle between North and South is to agree with the CRT claim that the essential characteristic between people is race. The fact that much of current Civil War scholarship and the DEI initiative are correlated with each other is not accidental in my mind. They both represent a similar world view.

And it is the radical right that is now banning books…sound familiar?

My post about the pornographic books in grade school libraries has been removed it appears. I understand … Guess my very detailed descriptions of these books that I have seen in the media. Which had to pixeled out certain part of the pictures in these "children" books. To show them on TV. Were too graphic for TMP. Again I understand …

Again, albeit my descriptions were accurate from those "Childrens' books" … they must have been too graphic, etc. even for TMP. I think this proves my point. I don't think it is necessary for children to read & see this type of agenda and narrative driven porno …

35th & Marcus +1/each ! 😎

Brechtel -2 ☹

As a retired teacher, I have real problems with censorship, and had some interesting incidents of it while I was teaching. Teachers should have academic freedom in the classroom and librarians should be in control of what is in their libraries.

Even graphic written and illustrated porno in children's' books in school libraries ? Is OK ? How can anyone justify that ? I fear too many in education feel this way … IMO Teach STEM and accurate history … and not have porno narrative and agenda drive available in the library. I can't mention what that woke DEI, etc. agenda is as I will be DH'd … 🐶🏠

Legion, I did see the sections of the books in Florida as well, and your description is correct.

Yes, now we both and many others watching TV, etc. saw those pornographic books in a grade school library. But some still think it is bad to ban these books ? I don't understand such lack of reason & logic ?

I am so glad I don't have children and see that they may have to be exposed and indoctrinated in this type "education"(?). What next, they will be showing dirty XXXX movies in the lunchroom ?

Again, it is narrative & agenda driven. That AFAIK many don't agree with this. But again, the tail is wagging the dog.

Another this morning. Also another ship was renamed yesterday. This one named for a famed Navy man who later served for the Confederacy.

Subject: Activists vandalize Scotland's 'Braveheart' monument in climate protest


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LOL! Aged about 12 there was ONE'Arty' book in school Library… that had a photo of A NAKED WOMAN! Most popular book in library… but NOBODY Dared to take it out! ;)

A VERY simplistic Brit view of ACW, send a Tomohawk if you want!
South, largely agrarian…economy based on slave ownership. Federal Government chose to impose TAX on wealth and slaves WERE wealth… (Something 'OFF', here?). South would NOT pay. Seccession… but Federal Gov't COULD NOT allow competitor into New Western territories. Abolutionists jumped in… and so did most folks, 'rightly' so. South kicked off… but LOST…But nobody likes losing… hence 'Lost Cause'. Several of those in UK!

I do NOT agree with Slavery… but abs FED UP with hearing about it! Brits stopped First! Britain. hmm… Probably pro South, TRADE! Cotton, Tobacco and Arms were just about it!.N USA becoming competitor…. but not THAT bothered… at time. LONG time ago… leave be!

Activists vandalize Scotland's 'Braveheart' monument in climate protest

Yeah because he had a lot to do with climate change ! Like those in the US they are so well indoctrinated with all this drivel. They think by destroying statues, paintings, etc. they will get their way … Fools, morons, idiots and some other words I can't use here !

A NAKED WOMAN! Most popular book in library… but NOBODY Dared to take it out! ;)

Of course that is art not porn. If photos of sex acts were in that book … that is porn. 😲🤯 I guess …

I do NOT agree with Slavery

I think very few people in the US, Europe, etc. think it was a good idea. The West believes slavery was NOT correct, wrong, bad, etc. A few … but they are a small very stupid, ignorant minority.

However, even today e.g. in Libya slave markets still exist. ISIS took many Yazidis as prisoners during their reign of terrorist in Iraq and Syria. Many of those were made slaves. But most Yazidis were killed in an ISIS plan for genocide. In the West all of this is wrong !

But again, we can't rewrite history. And shouldn't. However, by giving entitlements, etc. to those here who had ancestors that sadly were slaves 160 + years later just makes no sense, IMO. Too many minorities don't want to play the victim. And most don't.

FWIW – Battle Streamers of the CSA removed.

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Since they were fighting against the United States and were in rebellion, that is a good thing.

These things belong in museums. They don't represent what we stand for as one nation, all men created equal. They can be given full context in a museum setting.

Agree completely.