"US Navy morale and retention" Topic

link

There is a link to the official study this blogger analyzes here.

The Navy conducted a survey called the "Health of the Force" to gauge how well it was doing in the areas of Sailor retention, healthy behaviors, and other longevity areas that concern the "people" side of things. You can read the survey here. Full disclosure, I took this survey. If you've been following this blog for sometime, you can guess that the results of the survey reveal a Navy in trouble, especially in terms of recruiting, and well, the first major graphic of the survey sure seems to indicate just that.

SMH. I'm retired Navy. I do not want my grandsons or granddaughter to join the Navy. I'll change my mind when they treat everyone equally and the best person gets promoted. Not the best person in a certain category.

I have commented on this topic in another thread previously unfortunately I cannot find the thread in TMP archives, it was quite detailed.

The questions that should be asked…

1. Is retention a problem in certain MOS? My experience is the Navy is chronically short in the Deck department its basic labor pool. The Navy will do just about anything to fill the Deck department to include creative, underhanded and bordering on EVIL ways to reassign sailors to Deck Department. Most sailors in Deck hate it and with good reason!

2. An honest survey would ask questions as to why retention is a problem. Most places I have worked for that have retention problems hire independent contractors to conduct a study and they always ask benign lame questions that never produce any real information used to address the problem. It is far too easy to label racism or sexism as the culprits.

I have commented on this topic in another thread previously unfortunately I cannot find the thread in TMP archives, it was quite detailed.

This one, perchance?

TMP link

Yes, thank you Steve!

You're very welcome! :)

An honest survey would ask questions as to why retention is a problem.

I know several really talented, smart Gen-Zers who have abandoned plans to go into the Air Force and Navy because of current US civil and military leadership's fixation with race politics and wokism.

This is an old topic here. I am a firm believer that both the right and the left have bogged down in culture wars over recruitment and missed the boat. I don't like woke training as a solution to the fact that we still only have a couple of black brigade commanders in the entire army. Some career path.

We have the lowest unemployment rate since 1969. The military needs to find ways to compete as an employer. This probably should start with wages and benefits.

I have no idea about US forces, but am HAPPILY surprised to find increasing evidence about various very competent officers from from various ethnic backgrounds in UK, WW1, WW2, etc. We, civvies did not really know… tended to assume white led… and, in the main, yes. That WAS most of 'Officer Class' population.Knew VERY Good troops / aircrew, some of the BEST but had not realised 'some' V good officers, too. Starting to emerge!
And CERTAINLY, VERY excellent servicemen / women in UK, NOW from whatever background! So long as they are GOOD and not 'selected'! Know from Work!

As incidental, recently seen article about 'Coloured' Conquistador… NO IDEA about that, before! :)
Maybe Hollywood / TV not ALL that wrong, after all!

Although I decry "wokism" as much as the next libertarian or conservative, I doubt it's a driving force in retention or recruiting as much as its touted. While it probably drives out some from reenlisting, I'd bet the current recruiting problems have more to do with what Tortorella said: competition.

While the military actually is pretty competitive on wages for those without hard degrees, the lifestyle is probably the biggest detractor. I've been trying to get a young person to consider it, and all they say is: I don't want to get hurt, and don't like the fact that I cannot make my own choices.

People don't want to give up their freedom for military service. All they see is a form of servitude. Military movies, while encouragement for a few young minds, more likely drives many more away. I currently do know any of my associates, friends or coworkers with children who would even consider military service.

IMO, much like Roman times, military service is somewhat hereditary now. If you know someone whose been in and have close family or friendly ties, the more likely you are to join. If you are like the other 97% of Americans whose last veteran in the family was a grandfather or great grandfather, I suspect you are not likely to join.

My two cents.

Quality of life issues…

1. Enough enlisted housing for married sailors or failing that a COLA that does not get you section 8 housing with meth heads and other undesirables…

2. Barracks for enlisted when they are not at sea. It is hell being triple bunked with hundreds of other men in one large hold on the ship for years on end. Better yet give them a wage so they can afford an apartment out in the community and have life away from the Navy.

3. Real compensation when your boss can walk into your home (berthing area or barracks) grab you out of bed and demands you work because you are single and not entitled to live off the ship or off base.

4. Stop abusing salaried workers.

5. Petty abuses of UCMJ for the purpose of assigning extra duty to fill up the Deck department.

6. Being an all-round horrid human being and getting to hide behind your rank / UCMJ when your subordinates have had enough abuse and tell you off.

7. End curfews for junior enlisted when your superiors have no restrictions. We are adults DAMN it stop treating us like children. That piece of crap on your collar and title should not make you a GOD!

8. Stop telling lies about seeing the world, you will be lucky to get a couple liberty days in any port of call. If you are even allowed off the ship some places hate Americans.

Interesting list, and probably not unique to the USN by any stretch. Housing is a major bugbear in the UK military as well. Leaving aside the military service specifics I do recognise some of those traits as the worst possible aspects of American Corporate culture from my experience. I'd also suggest its a recipe for poor retention of those technical skill sets you really need in a modern navy.

Maggot, good points. The military needs a lot of professional PR help to rebrand itself as serving your country while your country gives you skills, equal opportunities and career paths regardless of race or gender. Skills like teamwork, not just tech. It's not going to be easy, but you will be good at what you do and proud to be recognized as such, etc. it's a huge project.

A major PR overhaul is needed, especially in this economy, in order to compete with record civilian job numbers. It's not just finding recruits, it's about finding good recruits.

And before anybody thinks it, China and Russia are not sailing along smoothly in this area either. China is just beginning to feel the demographic impact of its decades long one child policy. Military-aged people, factory workers, etc. may no longer seem an endless supply for them as their population declines.

Some great comments … sadly this does not bode well for the US. As the PRC/CCP is building up their navy, etc. as if on a war footing. Hope if need we will be ready … But if readiness is weak our loses will be high like at the beginning WWII.

Today's generation in many cases has little understanding about their own country. Being taught/exposed corrupt, skewed, etc. "history" like CRT/1619 plus woke and DEI[Diversity, Equity, Inclusion] ideologies. None of this brings us together but divides, incites, etc.

So called "Activists" organizations do nothing but cause more problems. They don't have any real solutions. The Constitution allows peaceful assembly and protests. We saw in the summer of 2020 over 570 riots including attacking LEOs, destroying LEOs' cars, looting, burning down cities blocks, etc. This has been something the Russians and PRC/CCP have been doing for decades. Our enemies are at the gate, and a "5th Column" coming from within.

States[and I use that term loosely] like A'stan and Iraq really have no national identity, they are more affiliated with tribes, religions, clans, warlords, mullahs, etc. We don't want to see that happen in the USA. Well, most of us don't …

"serving your country while your country gives you skills"

And they will be recognized by the private sector as certified training and credits. It sucks to get out of the military and be told by civilians what you learned is not valid, so you are not qualified to do tasks you performed thousands of times in the military. Thank you for your service now go back to school and relearn what you already know and do.

Dragon Gunner: When I retired in 2003 my last command was Task Force Excel which was disbanded at the same time. One tasking was to rethink how the NAVY can recruit and retain personnel. One proposal was to have personnel earn and receive certifications. An EM would become a certified electrician and be able to use those skills immediately after discharge. That is just one example. I wonder what happened to those proposals?

Exactly…just one example of something that can readily be done and offered.

I think the Chinese navy is not quite ready just yet. And we are keeping a close eye. I wonder about their leadership with so many political Xi buddies in command. But if we are not careful they will get ahead of us in a decade or so. Personnel is just as critical as equipment.

Maggot, good points. The military needs a lot of professional PR help to rebrand itself as serving your country while your country gives you skills, equal opportunities and career paths regardless of race or gender

It already was. The Military had been desegregated under Truman and spent decades getting a multi-ethnic merit-based system right -- unraveled quickly by the current leadership's obsession with race and gender. The USAF has flat out said we don't want white pilots. The Biden admin has explicit race goals in place, which is flat out discrimination. So it tells GenZ interested in serving that you won't be part of a merit based system. That you will be discriminated against, your career held back because of your superficial skin color tones. Plus this Admin doesn't signal respect for servicemembers, has shown it will not have their backs when the SHTF like in Afghanistan, etc., and has inflamed world tensions making war more likely, So who wants to join now???

OSCS74,
I always wondered the same thing, why does the training you get in the military rarely "transfer" into the civilian world (and I don't mean 11B infantryman, but tech skills).

Is not a field medic a qualified trauma nurse? But no state in the union will recognize that training and give them a leg up on a nurse's degree.

Ive found that the only place in the civilian world that really accepts prior military qualifications are those whose bosses are prior military themselves, or unfortunately, government jobs. Once in government, always in government…

It does depend on the individual, but it took 15 years in the civilian world before I got back to the same levels of responsibility I had when I left. I basically started all over again, just a lot older…and many young people see that as a negative.

military service is somewhat hereditary now.

This is something I wonder about. People that join because of a family history care how much about the social engineering aspect and/or resent it? I know the military has to get tech skilled people but at what point do the carrots start to rot away the core? Just making some generalizations about hereditary military, but I think they would buy more into the "fight for the nation" mentality vs "what does it give me a <insert civie job> doesn't, and the lifestyle isn't so great". Do you make the military like a civie life and accept the Opsec risks and ignore the demands of the military? If a war starts do people opt out b/c it's not their weekend? It's like the USMC recruiting commercials vs the USN or USA. One shows people with guns and others don't. And if they can't get the numbers they want because of public attitudes to military service at what point does DoD adjust it's missions to do what it can instead of being all things to all people but never have enough people to do the job and the amount of money spent on benefits starts to impact spending on systems and operations? Maybe time to become a lean mean fighting machine and have better, albeit smaller, recruits pools.

IIRC, You can get collage credits for some of your training and experience while on Active Duty. Based on the University, etc. I don't know if that is in full effect anymore. Now with woke, DEI, CRT, etc. exposure in many universities today.

I don't mean 11B infantryman, but tech skills

Well I was an 11B Officer, and many skills in that MOS including NCOs and
below, does transfer over to the civilian world. E.g. leadership, organization, planning, operating, activating, controlling, etc. Plus some of the Infantryman's skills can be used in law enforcement, security, PI work, etc. Those "Grunt" skills are technical skills that many don't have or have to be trained. At least that was my experience. BTW my last career was being a PI. Needed no training …

Maybe time to become a lean mean fighting machine and have better, albeit smaller, recruits pools.

Too late already there. Many/most branches don't make their recruiting numbers. The problem with that will be seen in e.g. Infantry Squad's, Tank & FA crews being short, as well as USN vessels, etc., etc. That effects overall combat effectiveness, etc. "Lean & mean" is good but too lean is not …

Maybe time to become a lean mean fighting machine and have better, albeit smaller, recruits pools.

And/or we also adopt a European and Israeli-style National Service model. Everyone serves for 12-18 months. No
class & money exemptions. Everyone shares the burden of national defense. You could allow a Conscientious Objector to do civil or non-combat service after basic training. Then you can stay in or nor. With such a large pool of talent to draw from you could keep standards high.

"Do you make the military like a civie life and accept the Opsec risks and ignore the demands of the military? If a war starts do people opt out b/c it's not their weekend?"

No when war breaks out or you are on a deployment you make the sacrifices. There is no excuse for poor quality of life when the military is in garrison or port. It's a callous deliberate indifference to the military and their quality of life. Prisoners in the USA have better living standards than enlisted on a USN ship.

" the amount of money spent on benefits starts to impact spending on systems and operations. "

Perhaps the question that should be asked is what civilians would be willing to pay for their protection when they are unwilling to consider military service?

And/or we also adopt a European and Israeli-style National Service model. Everyone serves for 12-18 months. No
class & money exemptions. Everyone shares the burden of national defense.

That will not go in today's USA society. Not just this is not "The Greatest Generation", etc. Pentagon reports are military age males about 70% will not pass many of the tests to get in. I.e. ASVAB, Physicals, PT, background investigation, etc.

FWIW – Also note when Obama opened combat arms to women. It was an ongoing debate whether if when Females turn 18 they need to sign up for the draft. Just like males. Finally, fairly recently Congress said – NO. I thought that was a good choice. I remember the old saying during Vietnam but updated to today – "Draft Beer … Not Women! 😆

However, I do think many in Congress would not stand for their children to actually being drafted. Possibly go to war, as well as be exposed to the "riff-raff" of the lower classes. Yes I include me in that ! Why waste their higher education, prefect teeth, etc. in the military. That is what society's lower income, marginally educated, the "unwashed" masses are for … 😮😄

We saw with the draft during Vietnam, what very unpopular … Today it would be even more unpopular …

Of course, today with woke, DEI, etc., the question of who or what is female could vary, even by day. If I understand that whole "concept" ? Even if the answer is obvious to most.

Dragon +1 !

"adopt a European and Israeli-style National Service model."

I like the idea, but professional volunteers outperform and slaughter conscripts most of the time.

86 percent of Air Force pilots are white men as of 2021, I believe, according to the military. Kind of takes the wind out of your sails maybe if you're a black kid with a sharp mind and quick reflexes. Maybe it's getting better.

How do we know GenZ wont join the service because it's woke? How many of them are saying this?

Hearing people say the service is too woke to function doesn't help recruiting, IMO, whether kids are white or black.

Of the top 41 officers in the US military, 2 were black a couple of years ago. As I said, only 2 black brigade commanders as far as I know. More than half of servicemen and women of color report seeing racist behavior or incidents, a number that has risen in recent years. This from a Military Times poll around 2020, could mean any number of things but it's still too much. This gets back to kids in high school and they are not gonna join, IMO.

So no woke, and no discrimination either , just merit, and that means everybody has to prove themselves to the same standards and the military has to walk the walk on this and tell the target audiences.

If we don't fix recruiting we are gonna drop far behind our enemies in the coming years.

Woke or not, try finding any kid these days who thinks serving their country is a good thing. Nearly everyone in the younger generations thinks serving anything is a sucker's game, let alone serving your country.

Less than 5% of the nation has served, and that number is dropping. Fewer and fewer people even know anyone in the military or have a relative in the military. Parent actively fight any kind of recruiting in schools on any level and many districts bar military from recruiting at schools.

There's a lot of great ideas on how to improve service life in the military and I think they are worth exploring, but even in the darkest days of Afghanistan, the military was able to make quotas for enlistment. The failure to hit them is consistent and recent.

I believe there are a number of factors leading to this, but with an entire generation who really could care less if they're about serving, it's a difficult issue. We have to make people care and want to have a nation to defend and I don't see that changing soon with attitudes all around being what they are.

Brit. Army used to be good for HGV or 'plant' skills. Lot of good electricians / mechanics in services. Dentistry was also a good choice. Not all that scope for 'Shooty Bang Sticks' though!

But what used to happen was lad would join, get a 'trade'… and leave soon as pos! As for 'Seeing The world'… you have to laugh!

what civilians would be willing to pay for their protection

Not very much.

National Service: never, ever going to work in the US. There is no way exceptions won't be handed out and avoidance will be the name of the game. Add in the "well you don't have a choice" factor and I would suspect a majority of the people showing up would be resentful of it and not perform, so why even have them then? And what about the no-shows? Jail? Fines?

We have to make people care and want to have a nation to defend

That's been gone long ago. That bit about "America isn't at war, the Marines are. America is at Wal-mart" sums it up. There is a too lean but if you are planning on "x bodies" being available and they aren't then you're stuck. I think it's going to be like McD moving to kiosks and automating as much as possible b/c the bodies aren't there. Not saying make terminators but something has to give.

I agree port/post life should be better but DoD isn't going to spend that money from their budgets, so they'll want more to cover that and I'm sure they know that idea will go nowhere. I enjoyed USMC barracks and all that and had many friends that stayed on ships way too long. Don't know if they still do it but USMC was doing their up-or-out bs so I and many others hit the road; many people like the job the do and don't want to be in charge. There were other services doing layoffs. Now they complain about bodies? Maybe the MBA's they get point to rif's as the way to go?

I got out after 4 years of Marine computers and was really qualified . . . to be a janitor. Most employers couldn't care less about prior service. Where I work now they're all about it, ya if you're a manager type so they can check that box "vet friendly" just like all the other little boxes they check that really have no impact than looks. So enlisted service really is a sucker play unless you're going to make it a career, get the VA loan, and not get hurt.

86 percent of Air Force pilots are white men as of 2021, I believe, according to the military. Kind of takes the wind out of your sails maybe if you're a black kid with a sharp mind and quick reflexes. Maybe it's getting better.

Meh! Maybe look for deeper reasons why that is -- what factors draw people to want to be a USAF pilot? What's the family culture and family life, do they come from families that value education? Do they come from good schools, or at least an environment like Dr Ben Carson where despite mediocre schools his Mom pushed her kids to excel? What did they study in school? What extracurricular activities did they do?

If you think it's "not fair" that your "black kid with a sharp mind and quick reflexes" didn't have more opportunity -- fix that! You think it's unfair that more black kids and minorities don't learn how to fly before applying to USAF? Fix that! The EAA has a minority outreach program, and will provide *discount* training -- yet only a small number of black kids take advantage of that. Why?

Find out and fix the root causes, don't fixate on skin color quotas. All that means is dead people and burning wreckage because China and other adversaries do not care about modern American racial politics.

Dragon +1+

professional volunteers outperform and slaughter conscripts most of the time.

Again, Many military age people, have been "indoctrinated" with woke, DEI, CRT, 1619, etc. dogma. Why would they join a nation's Military if they see the nation is racist, etc.? The woke have done what the PRC/CCP and Russia have been trying to do for decades. The enemy from within …

Topical on this subject, I just saw this article in AP:

link

Damon.

SB! I am talking about recruiting here! And visuals! You want the best from every possible recruiting pool!! Not via some stupid quota system – that is an insult to everyone involved. It's about standards, period. It has to look like everybody has a chance or that ball will never start rolling, an American Air Force with all the best people in it. Making it happen means reaching everyone who can qualify with the message. If you looks like you can get in, you might give it a shot.

I never said anything about not being fair, I have been VERY clear about merit. Chinese military personnel spend a ton of time in indoctrination, makes woke look like a lunch break. You know this, I think, but you think our guys are going down because of some quota? I hope we do not do that because it is NOT the way you fix this issue.

Thank you Garand… I understand the fury about woke, especially from vets, but I want to know what is actually happening with this. And that means data. I would dump woke training in a heartbeat if it is shown to reduce efficiency. We cannot afford such training. We will leave that to the Chinese.

And just in case you think I am not on your side, the data in Garand's AP link shows that 10% of potential recruits do not trust military leadership. IMO, this means disasters like the Afghanistan evac, which was, in the opinion of probably most of us, poorly led at the top, to say the least.

But the data shows that more than twice as many potential candidates worry about minority and gender discrimination as worry about woke influence, an issue for only 5 % across all regions of the country.

Read the article to see what these possible recruits worry most about.

IMO, this means disasters like the Afghanistan evac, which was, in the opinion of probably most of us, poorly led at the top, to say the least.

Yes, we have talked about this often. In no way any Military leader worth his rank would have briefed the top civilian leadership to use the plan they did. And the AAR from the ARMY pointed fingers to the usual suspects.

I understand the fury about woke, especially from vets, but I want to know what is actually happening with this. And that means data. I would dump woke training in a heartbeat if it is shown to reduce efficiency. We cannot afford such training. We will leave that to the Chinese.

Bingo ! We have discussed this before. It is a waste of time. I have some experience about training my troops for combat and combat readiness. Anything like woke, DEI, CRT, 1619, etc. is not only wasting time but divisive.

Army leaders said very few say they are deterred from enlisting due to "wokeness." In fact, concerns about discrimination against women and minorities is seen as a bigger issue, along with a more general distrust of the military.

I can understand that. IMO the potential recruits don't know any better.

I'm talking about wasting time on the woke topics, etc. I find the whole minorities discrimination seems to be something that very rarely or never happened in any units I served in. Based on my experience, we had many minorities in the units I served or lead. My 1SG was African-American, I never heard anything about racism. We had more important things to be concerned about. Again, with many races in our ranks. And as my peers or superiors.

The discrimination of women again I didn't any of that. As I only served with one CBT SPT Bn, and there were many females there. Some very good soldiers. As opposed today, with Obama opening up combat arms to females. We had No females in the
Infantry, tanks, FA, CEs, and on some ADA weapons. When I was on active duty, '79-'90.

I must be a dinosaur … 🦖 So I'll go back to my cave and feel little to no shame.

Beyond politics how many service age Americans could even physically be in the military? Reports are not many. Throw in drug use and mental illness and the pool gets smaller, unless there's a grand idea to just downplay those issues and fill the ranks. Aren't the Marines doing a "pre-boot physical test" to determine a recruits chances of getting through boot? The time (=money) to get a recruit to a basic level before they can be worked up to service capability can't be something DoD wants.

As I have posted before, according to the Pentagon, 70% of military age Americans could not past the ASVAB, Physical, PT Test, have a criminal record, etc. Not too may CPT Americas out there.

FWIW – The USMC has downsized, they have the luxury of needing less Marines. IMO this a bad idea …

The other branches have many more slots to be filled in many MOSs, etc. And even the other branches have downsized in large numbers over the years. Less is not more if you have open slots in Infantry, tank, FA, Naval vessels, weapons and maint. crews, etc., etc.

FWIW – The USMC has downsized, they have the luxury of needing less Marines. IMO this a bad idea …

Yeah, I don't understand this "Mobile Marine Garrison" model being promoted where instead of being a reaction and first-to-land force, the USMC in the Pacific would be split into mobile garrison forces that are supposed to land on an island *ahead* of say, an advancing Chinese task group, and then harass it with antiship and antiaircraft missiles, and then *leave* before the Chinese react and go to the next island?!?! What a stupid way to use the USMC, and I cannot see that even working as envisioned.

As I have posted before, according to the Pentagon, 70% of military age Americans could not past the ASVAB . . .

Saw this tank name here: link

"Someone in the military who scored low on the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery (ASVAB) yet was still allowed to join based on the approval of a waiver."

:)

"More than half of servicemen and women of color report seeing racist behavior or incidents, a number that has risen in recent years."

Define incidents? Blatant racism by White supremacists?, Nazis? KKK? I think there is a very loose definition of what is an incident.

If Caucasians have any negative encounter with a minority the race card is automatically played. Example you have a Black soldier that decides his rap music should be shared by everyone in the barracks as loudly as possible no matter what time of day it is. If you have a problem with his behavior or his choice of music, you are racist, and it becomes an incident. (In the current WOKE climate that could result in a career killing incident report in your file if a SJW decides they are going to punish a Caucasian for the sins of the past.…)

sigh

@Dapeters

You have something you want to say?

Dragon, I don't know how incidents are defined and I said as much in my conclusion about what to make of this. Its probably safe to assume that there is a range of issues, some bigger than others. The is based on a Military Times survey cited by the NYT, along with quotes from long time veterans and their experiences. And white supremacists were mentioned. The services have acknowledged that there are issues. I have no direct knowledge.

My concern would be violations of military regs and laws. While I am not black and not currently serving, I doubt that race cards are automatically played by either blacks or whites. Are you are aware of any due process issues regarding the unfair application of regs and woke influence?

The unfit status of the recruiting pool is a huge issue for dinosaurs who can see what might be coming! As in extinction…

"The is based on a Military Times survey cited by the NYT, along with quotes from long time veterans and their experiences."

Notorious for one sided article's promoting a narrative.

" And white supremacists were mentioned."

Never met one during my 8 years of service. This must be a minority of Caucasians because the way the media sighs, moans and groans about they act like every Caucasian service member is racist. It just goes hand in hand with Critical Race Theory that is being rammed down everyone's throats.

"The services have acknowledged that there are issues."

You parrot the party line if you want to get promoted and keep your job.

"My concern would be violations of military regs and laws."

Most of your posts seem obsessed with equal opportunity and racial outcomes. In my experience that translates into affirmative action and quotas. So, what regs and laws are you referring to?

"I doubt that race cards are automatically played"

Not my experience in the military or in the civilian sector.

" Are you are aware of any due process issues regarding the unfair application of regs and woke influence?"

No, I cannot quote examples in the current military, like you I am not actively serving. Talking with currently serving Caucasians it appears to be a huge source of aggravation for them.

"The unfit status of the recruiting pool is a huge issue for dinosaurs who can see what might be coming! As in extinction…"

Agreed!

Yeah, I don't understand this "Mobile Marine Garrison" model being promoted where instead of being a reaction and first-to-land force,

Many feel that way including some Marines past & present.

Steve Wilcox + 1 I love the names on the M1 barrels ! GIs sometime have a great sense of humor. That some don't get !

Dragon +1 … As some of us know many times articles written by journalists(?) that never served in the military. They make incorrect comments and assumptions. Plus, some are clearly biased, narrative and agenda driven, etc.

" And white supremacists were mentioned."

So often in the media and some in Gov't where everything is racist, mentioning white supremacists are everywhere … I wish I knew who and where these guys are ? Yeah, we know about the KKK, Neo-Nazis, etc. nothing new there. They are morons, etc. Very rarely do these white supremacists actually do something. On those rare occasions, yes some loose cannon moron does kill someone, etc. That is very tragic, of course.

Note many, many, many more "Black on Black" murders occur. In numbers of 7000+ a year. Plus, some innocent bystanders get killed which is a tragedy. And no one can seem to stop that. IMO this should be a BLM mission … But seems there are some problems within that "organization" …

All these killings, murders, etc. are wrong … period. And IMO every time the KKK, Neo-Nazis, etc. shows up. In their "uniforms", white sheets, etc. They should at least be laughed at, made fun of etc. As they are clearly fools. But the Constitution allows for peaceful assembly and protest.

But again BLM & Antifa a couple of summers ago burned, looted, destroyed city blocks, attack LEOs, destroy LEO vehicles etc. And many were injured as well. And IIRC some died …

I support NONE of these organizations, KKK, Neo-Nazis, BLM or Antifa. For obvious reasons …

I Also have to laugh that some in Congress have personal bodyguards to protect them from the white supremacist's scourge.
News flash – you are not that important, none of these types are going to waste time to hunt you down, etc. But it makes a good sound bite …

< Rant mode terminated > < Fade to black >

IMO every time the KKK, Neo-Nazis show up. In their "uniforms", white sheets, etc. They should at least be laugh at them, made fun of etc. But the Constitution allows peaceful assembly and protest.

There was a gent who used to run a game called "Klan Busters" at my local gamecon. Set in the 1920s, the premise of the game was that all the players were FBI and Marshalls attacking a KKK rally, and the player who bagged the most hoods won a special miniature he painted up. Nobody complained for years, good fun beating up on the Klan…but of course, it came to an end as we entered the Age of Being Offended…

SB +1 As long as the race card is played in every hand, criminals receive a "get out of jail" pass, 5 million illegal aliens roam thru out the US. 90% + who don't qualify for asylum. The cartels use these illegals as cover to support their crimes …

The USA will/is threated from within …

After a couple of thousand investigations, after which I stopped counting, my experience is that the race card is not played "automatically" or "everytime." When it was played it, it was just as likely to be played by a white individual as a black individual. But mostly I avoided that b@##s@#$, learned to recognize the rabbit holes from the actual issues. Of course this was a while ago now, different arena. But human nature doesn't change.

The use of "automatically" when you mean " way too much" may be the issue for me. But these threads lately are not for me. Adios.

Agreed I should have said "way too much".

Don't hear much about gangs encouraging members to join the military to get weapon and combat skills. Guess that's not a problem anymore.

So if the military downsized why didn't they get those people to transfer to a new mos or even branch? Makes sense since they are already in and trained at some level. If the person didn't want to, fine. But from the few articles I read (I'm out anyway) some weren't given the option.

Whatever the USMC structure is or should be they really don't need to be Army 1.5. Just having a massive force just for kicks is a waste of money at a time when what there is seems to be pouring on lots of things. China is a USN game, with some USAF. Sitting on islands in penny packets isn't a good idea but they're also not going ot land MBTs ala WW2 either.