"how to discern some roman legion classes in S&H" Topic

I am looking at the Strength and Honour rules as i want to explore ancient period wargamin gas well as napoleonic and i am wondering in their army list for republican roman army there are experienced, raw and veteran roman legions – would there be anything one could do to visually distinguish such units – was there anything such as elite legions in the early roman era or equivalent, that would have had some visible difference to other legions?

Hello, sorry, I don't know S&H, only use DBX rules myself. I am working on a 2nd Punic Wars project using Victrix figures. The legions were not permanent yet but citizen soldiers raised for that years campaign. Most I would suggest are experienced with maybe only the Triarii as veteran or maybe elite. They would be distinguished by having spears, more armour and the corinthian style helmet rather than the Montefortino style. Raw troops could be distinguished by being unwilling Italian allies using different figures and shields, look at LMBS for transfers. Rome also raised penal legions in an emergency who would be raw. They were armed with gallic weapons, I think no armour and plainer style shields. Not sure if any of that helps?

that is all very interesting though i must apologise as i was reading the republican roman army list again and saw that it is for the late republican era, 100-31bc – post-marian reforms – were there still Triarii after that?

having spears was more distinguished than a sword?

You are basically looking at the Romans after the Marian reforms.

link

At this point the state became responsible for equipping the soldiers and men could take permanent employment at soldiers rather than being a citizen levy. In general I don't think they would look very different from each other as they are state supplied with equipment. I have read that tunic colours and shield patterns are uncertain for this period though so you could use a bit of artistic licence and paint the legions in different tunic colours so say veterans have red tunics and raw cream ones to make obvious during games.

Ah, sorry, yes, I was talking about 100 years before what you are looking at

OK, for the post-Marian army: the spears are gone, all legionaries are armed with pilum and sword. The last mention of velites is in the 80s, which if it is reliable means that some legions may have kept them for a while after Marius, but otherwise they disappear as well. There are occasional references to antesignani who may be experienced legionaries sometimes detached for special duties such as supporting cavalry, who may have used lighter equipment for such roles.

As for distinguishing between legions, they do seem to have started to use distinctive shield patterns at this date. The shield in the Fish Mosaic from Praeneste/Palestrina may be the earliest surviving representation – see this mosaic hanging on the pillar right of centre.

I don't think there is any one thing that would say "we are an elite legion", but you could look at shields and maybe helmet-crests and say "we are this legion, not the same as that legion over there".

Also, I think one has to be careful about what one means by "elite", especially for Roman sensibilities. They probably would have rejected the idea that certain legions were elite in any sense of equipment or special training: the issue was simply whether they had been in existence long enough to have a basic level of training and a bit of experience, and even there it was perhaps more experience of living in the field on campaign than fighting a lot of battles. Yes, one gets mention of legions such as Caesar's Xth, but that is again a measure of experience, esprit de corps and loyalty than better quality kit. The way you could tell a raw legion was that any sensible general kept it in the rear!

thanks for the replies – that is interesting that the spears are gone as you say Gurkhan as i was looking at the Warlord Games Late Republican starter army and it seems to have quite a few spear carrying figures in it – mostly though spear and sword

i was using the term Elite a bit generically, the army list the legion units are as Roman Legion, Roman legion raw and roman legion veteran, and Levy legion – not sure what a levy legion would be, is that something like the Opelchenie of the russian army in the napoleonic wars – they seem to be worse than the raw legion

I put my 2mm cohorts in a variety of formations. I can choose the quality of each depending on the relative numbers.

hi Advocate – i would love to see pics of how you arranged yoru formations as i am not sure what is best myself – in particular for a 3mm-4mm scale and what would fit best on the 75mm width suggested base

I believe that the authors are looking at releasing an expansion covering the classic Polybian Punic wars style army for S and H, maybe out this year.

As for Elite legions, they certainly existed but as mentioned above that was as. A result of experience and esprit de corps rather than equipment.

Those spear-carrying figures may have pilae, GeorgBuchner. Overall, I think Gurkhan's right, but in 3-4mm, you might need something more obvious. Possibly the number and position of command elements? Shield colors? Or just the number of bases, with levy legions being the strongest and the top quality the most worn down?

Levy.legions being the strongest? I think they are the weakest ones – or do you mean levy legions being the largest

As an aside I think most rules overrate the Triarii. The true elite infantry in the Pre Marian Legion, in my estimation, in were the Principes. The Triarii were the last thin line of defense when everything else had failed. If it got to that then things had gone awfully bad.

interesting points thanks Marcus

just thiough regarding Levy legions – would they look any different to other legions in the late republican period? again Strength and Honour lists them but tehre are now details on what exactly they were

@Georg Buechner

Why do you feel the need to distinguish between Legions ?

The thinking behind S&H uses very broad strokes, after all each base represents roughly 4000 men. Take an early Republic Legion, the Velites skirmish then fall back as the Hastati move to contact, Principes relieve them and if it all goes pear-shaped the Triaii move up.
This all happens without any player input, the rules (like generals) take it for granted troops will follow their training.

At the most you'll have 8 bases to keep track of, it's hardly a big ask; maybe follow the author's suggestion and use unit markers at the rear of the bases. As for your opponent, ancient generals were rarely privy to enemy's OOB, they trusted to tradition with the right flank being the place of honour.

BTW 75mm is the author's preferred grid size, S&H bases span 2 grid squares so the norm is 120mm wide bases.

thanks – yes i was rereading that and saw actuall 120mm for the width which is better for fitting on 10 cohorts

i guess its just my unfamiliarity with the details of the period exactly when it comes to military – just not sure if the different legios listed could be visually distinguished at all
would the levy legion be much the same

what about open order spearmen – i cant find any info on this type of unit historically, as the hastati were disbanded after the marian reforms, so how would open order spearmen be dressed – as auxilia? i ask this more just as a general knowledge question

@GeorgBuchner

Legions by the time of Marius were supplied and armed by the State so standard equiptment. Also consider this, would you really want to givethe enemy a visual cue where your inexperienced troops were ?

"open order spearmen" would get slaughtered, while you were engaging an opponent another would step into the gap and cut you down. Troops might deploy and move in open or intermediate order but they close up at contact to survive, skirmishers just retreat.

well in the army lists for Strength and honour – one of the units are "open order spearmen, so i am just trying to work out what they would look like

somene else fortunately has given some indication of this

There are occasional things which distinguish legiones other than their shields. The 5th legion were called the Alaudae which is probably from wearing larks' feathers or wings on their helmets. The more experienced troops might look shabbier or have picked up items of clothing in foreign climes, like Mark Antony's Gallic boots and cloak, though these would be less apparent for legionaries ready for battle.