"Best command and control rules in fantasy?" Topic

I've been comparing a lot of fantasy rules systems in search of something to run an extended campaign of 10mm mass battles.

Most of the command control mechanics have been disappointing. They seem to either give the player omniscient control, or rely on some randomizing mechanic for unit activation.

What systems do you like that do a good job of depicting difficulties of command while still reflecting some functional degree of unit autonomy?

Fantastic Battles is a good set, command is based on distance, so providing a commanders units is within his command range they can operate as wished, however it becomes more difficult to maintain command once the troops are out of range.

Tally Ho!

Take a look at PRIDE OF LIONS. Actually you probably need to wait for WARPRIDE which is PofL 3. Characters (which includes commanders but also mages etc) are given a number of COMMAND dice, CHARISMA dice, and POWER dice. Charisma is used to rally or inspire a unit (pretty much like in the PofL rules). POWER dice power spells.

COMMAND dice are required to issue orders. Units have standing orders according to what their mission is: BATTLE LINE units' priority is to maintain the line; they can only maneuver forward and backwards with ease. ASSAULT units MUST move towards an enemy and charge when close enough. SKIRMISH units do that. But a command is needed to, e.g., order a BATTLE LINE to convert to ASSAULT, or a unit on ASSAULT to halt.

The reason COMMAND dice are dice is that the distance from the commander to the unit must be within the die or dice roll. COMMAND dice abstractly represent the commander's time and available communications (couriers, etc). So a commander might be forced to choose between two orders to units nearby, or a single order to a unit way out on a flank.

Here's the draft for the SOP for a battle line:

Each unit, of whatever troop type, will at the start of the game be assigned one of three missions (battle LINE, ASSAULT, or SKIRMISH) and must operate within its standard operating procedures (SOPs). A commander may change a unit's mission during the game. Not every unit is capable of every mission; in particular, only light troops may SKIRMISH but may not ASSAULT, and heavy cavalry may not form LINE.

1. Battle LINE: this mission is for close order infantry and attached support troops such as battle beasts, portable artillery, and integral light troops. Units in a battle line must be base-to-base (touching at least at corners) and may be two or more units deep. The priority of a battle line is to maintain a solid front without gaps. When gaps do appear, as when a unit is destroyed (and perhaps is rallied to the rear) the line must either fill the gap from the rear or halt so that units to each side of the gap can move sideways. Drilled troops will be able to do this faster than undrilled.
Lines behind the first can be no wider than the front line. If the front line loses a unit it must be replaced by the nearest one moving up from the second rank. A battle line may hold position or advance to its front or retreat to its rear, but cannot wheel or change facing to a flank (partial exception: drilled units in an echeloned line). Drilled troops may advance or retreat at an oblique, up to 45 degrees; other units can only advance or retreat directly straight ahead or backwards. (This may seem to put a big restriction on undrilled infantry, but in fact it was not unusual to spend several hours just forming a battle line. Changing facing during a battle was simply not possible with undrilled troops because there was no way to communicate something like "march 30 degrees to the left oblique" to every man in the line. Opposing lines of undrilled infantry will meet only when both are willing to do so.)
Battle lines are vulnerable to their flanks. To reorient a battle line up to 90 degrees left or right is a difficult procedure even for drilled troops, requiring an order from the commander and several turns to complete. (The shorter the line, the faster it can reorient its facing. Undrilled units require three times longer than drilled.)
Drilled units in line may advance in echelon. A battle line in echelon can face to its refused flank with relative ease, each unit making a 90 degree turn. This requires an order from its commander.
Exceptionally strong units such as battle beasts are often used to anchor flanks. Light troops integral to a larger command may be attached to a battle line to scout and to mask it from some enemy fire. Portable artillery and massed archers may form part of a battle line, but will be very vulnerable if not in a rear rank.
An army may have more than one battle line but each requires a commander.
An all-cavalry army will have no battle lines.

and for ASSAULT:

2. The ASSAULT mission requires units to move as directly as possible towards an assigned enemy or terrain objective or in a declared direction, and to charge into contact when possible. Units beginning the game on ASSAULT need not begin moving towards their target until ordered by the commander, but once ordered they must continue to move until in contact with the enemy.
An army may have several groups (commands) of units on ASSAULT orders, but each requires its own commander. An assault command may include attached light troops who must be at least as fast as the main body. (I.e. an assault command of heavy cavalry might have attached light cavalry, but not light infantry.)
Light troops in dispersed formation may never assault, though they may be used to scout for and screen assaulters. Heavy cavalry, whose combat ratings assume momentum, may not form battle line though if equipped with missiles they might skirmish. Close order infantry and loose order infantry such as peltasts or tribal warriors may ASSAULT. Impetuous troops such as berserkers and fanatics MUST assault.
Drilled units on ASSAULT may advance or charge at an oblique up to 45 degrees. Undrilled or impetuous troops must advance and charge straight ahead.
ASSAULT troops must charge into contact when an enemy is within their normal movement distance, adding a +2" charge bonus to that distance.
If opposing ASSAULT troops are moving towards each other, both will charge when within their combined movement distances including charge bonuses.
ASSAULT troops may not fire missiles but may have throwing weapons such as pila or grenades which are added in to the unit's melee dice as it charges.
A single stand with assault mission, if not in base-to-base contact with friend or foe, may wheel up to 90 degrees before moving, if in command.
Two stands in base to base contact and under command may wheel up to 45 degrees before moving.
Three adjacent stands may wheel up to 30 degrees.
Longer lines of units with ASSAULT mission must wheel like a swinging gate to change direction.
Wheels are made from a stable point which may be a corner of a stand or the center front if a single stand.

and finally:

3. The SKIRMISH mission

The primary goal of skirmishers is to move onto the flank or rear of enemy units and shoot at them with missiles. Skirmishers also act as scouts, detecting terrain problems and hidden enemy units. When both sides have skirmishers in the same part of the battle field ("zone") they will fight each other until one side eliminates its skirmishing foes, at which point it may resume its primary mission.
Before the first turn of the game, each player must deploy his units secretly on a map, indicating starting location and mission. Skirmishers will be assigned either to a zone (e.g. "skirmish on the right flank") or to screen a battle line or assault command. Skirmishers do not require a commander to follow these SOPs, but must operate within their assigned zone or accompany their assigned friendly command. Changing skirmishers' orders is difficult due to their dispersal.
(The crews of fixed artillery and siege machines are treated as skirmishers in combat because of their dispersal. They do not normally move but might abandon their position leaving their equipment behind. Trained engineers are typically harder to replace than wooden constructions.)
Although skirmishers are typically unarmored or only lightly protected, their dispersal and constant movement gives them the equivalent of 3 points of armor against missiles only.
Skirmishers will automatically evade a full move to their rear to avoid being contacted by advancing or charging enemy LINE or ASSAULT units. If the enemy's movement is far enough to contact them anyway (this is most common when cavalry are charging light infantry) then the fleeing skirmishers receive hits without any saves and cannot fight back. Any surviving skirmishers are removed as routed, and may attempt to reform if rallied.
Opposing skirmishers assigned to the same zone must move to within 1" of one another and exchange missile fire. If enemy skirmishers attempt to fire at LINE or ASSAULT units with attached light troops in support, the opposing skirmishers will move to within 1" of each other and exchange missile fire.
Skirmishers unopposed by enemy skirmishers will automatically maneuver onto the most accessible flank of enemy LINE or ASSAULT units. When movement permits they will maneuver onto the rear of an enemy. Skirmishers move to within 1" of the enemy and fire their missiles. Targets' armor is reduced by 1 if fired upon from a flank, and by two if fired upon from the rear.

So the key command decision is what initial orders/mission to give units, which will then operate according to that SOP. Commanders need CMD dice mainly to CHANGE missions during the game.

WARPRIDE replaces the step reduction of PRIDE OF LIONS with three results: driven back a move facing the enemy; driven back a move with backs to enemy; and removed from the table. CMD dice are needed to move such driven-back units back into line. Units facing away from the enemy, and units removed from the table, may be rallied by a commander using CHARISMA dice.

What is wrong with Warmaster ?

You could also use the Command and control from Napoleon's Battles rules. Just create a command structure and values for each commander.

Hott PIPs

Warmaster hands down.

OP, outside of a Eurogame, I really don't know what you want.

randomizing mechanic for unit activation.

I question whether this is a bad thing. We can't account for all the things that might cause a unit to not do what you want : terrain, weather, morale, miscommunication, commander in a bad mood, commander taking a bio break – the list is endless. So a simple random roll is a good way to account for this

When looking at rules, I think it's best to step away from mechanisms and thing about how you want the game to flow, and what is different about a fantasy game compared to any other game

• Do different factions have different ways of organizing? Blind obedience, telepathy, undead, wild charges at any enemy
• Are magic users separate units? What effects does magic have?
• Dragons or other critters. Are they likely to flame their own troops on a bad activation roll?
• Heroes. Or at least elite units containing heroes

As mentioned, take a look at Warmaster

Good luck – would like to hear what you end up doing

John

I am not a fan of the Warmaster activation mechanic, now made very popular in the Dragon Rampant rules (and family).

In these you roll a certain number and of successful, you move and fight with the unit. But the default is that a unit does NOTHING. That is not how most armies behave (armies of zombies or such might indeed act that way). Certainly friction and fog of war cause chaos. But units don't often just stop and do nothing. They attempt to follow their orders.

I prefer the orders system. Units carry out orders until the CO changes them, and changing them can be easy or hard, depending.

Et Sans Resultat has a very nice system. Each formation has an objective. Each turn it moves full speed toward the objective until it either (a) reaches the objective (b) runs into the enemy or (c) the commander changes it. The full speed prevents players slowing down reacting to threats they would not know about etc.

+1jwebster

In fantasy (and sci fi) too often every faction acts the same. CnC is a nice way to give armies really different flavor. A zombie army might need constant prodding. Bugs are easy to start moving but can't change orders (fire and forget). Some armies may prefer to defend.

WarGods (of Olympus and Aegyptus) has a good alternate activation system with command cards. The twist is on your turn to activate a unit you can choose an opponent's unit. This can lead to a premature charge that leaves them out in the open and vulnerable to counter attacks.

There are other parts of the command system that provide lots of tactical situations.

In defense of Warmaster's C&C rolls, keep in mind that a unit doesn't require a C&C roll if an enemy is within 20cm (basically, charge range). The unit may either charge the enemy or evade directly away from the enemy without requiring any roll— the unit is assumed to be aware of the nearby enemy and responding to it under the direction of the unit's assumed officers (the guy standing next to the dude with the banner on most units). For these units, the roll is only made if the player wishes to order the unit to do something else, ignoring the nearby enemy (and thus gets a penalty).
Also, units may always shoot enemy in range, even if they fail the command roll (which is really only to determine movement, not anything else).

A logical house rule might be that a unit who does not have enemy in sight (60cm, IIRC) on a failed command might move a half-pace forward, but must immediately stop if at any point the movement brings an enemy unit within sight.

But for me, the idea of the C&C roll is that:
1.) The enemy is known to be in the area, even of not seen, so the battle has begun, and orders can be confused in the heat of impending combat.
2.) The commander is sending couriers or waving banners or having drums beaten/horns blown… and none of that is certain to be received or understood.
3.) There are no standing orders at this point; the standing orders were to get to and deploy in the positions where the army is now. The enemy has been sighted (by somebody— unrepresented scouts, magic, omens, tell-tale signs— pick your fluff)— plan A is now in the loo. Plan B is being cobbled together as rapidly as the general and his staff can think. Confusion reigns…

It's a battle, not a ballet!

Why not design your own to taste?
Probably be quicker than trying a never ending list of recommendations.
I like designing games.
Used to be the norm when I were a lad.

Cardboard box?
Yooooooo were lucky!