"The Shotguns of WWII: Model 1897 and Model 1912" Topic

"Aside from a flame thrower, there are few close-range weapons as deadly as a shotgun. Shotguns are terrifyingly effective at short ranges, as their shot spread does not need to be precisely aimed to score a hit. At longer ranges, a shotgun peppers the target with fast-moving metal balls, while at close ranges shotguns can effortlessly inflict horrific wounds. For these reasons, the shotgun has found itself at home in close quarters combat in wartime, sometimes controversially. Until the 1960s the United States' shotguns of choice have been the Winchester Model 1897 and 1912.

Both of these shotguns started life as commercially-sold firearms but quickly proved themselves on the battlefield…"

Main page

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Armand

I thought shotguns were banned by the Geneva Convention.

When…?

Armand

IIRC, combat shotguns were still being used in Vietnam by MACV/SOG units ….. not to mention general issue of anti-personnel flechette rounds for everything from M79 grenade launchers to 155mm howitzers.

B

Shotguns are overrated in most combat. They have a pretty short range, and so anyone with a rifle can easily take them out before they get in range. They WERE NOT used in trench warfare by the US in WW1 (That is a myth), but for POW guard and riot control duty. Which is what they were used for in WW2, as well as guard duty. Ithappens that my dad was a rifle company commander in France, and he said they talked about shotguns maybe being useful for fighting snipers, but they were unable to get any to try it out. So for people who claim they used whatever they wanted, no, not really.

@ jgawne. My great grandfather was a Marine in the 51st company 2/5 in WWI. He carried the Winchester 1897 trench gun, I know because I've got it. This a great article of all the weapons Marines used in WW1.
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Marines were a separate thign, and they were issued the shotguns specifically to guard depots and facilities, not to carry into combat.

@jgawne, I take you didn't read the article, nor what I wrote.

Marines were a separate thing, and they were issued the shotguns specifically to guard depots and facilities, not to carry into combat.

Pretty sure you are incorrect re US non-use of shotguns in combat. A web search for images of US Marines carrying shotguns in combat yields several clear results. Also, it is a categorical fact that combat shotguns were carried by US MACV/SOG recon teams in Vietnam. They are still being issued for such special requirement close combat operations today.

I agree that shotguns were not by any means general issue weapons; but they were issued for specific operations such as close-quarters combat (BUA, trenches and bunker assaults, jungle ops) where their particular characteristics were considered useful.

B

If shotguns weren't used in WW1 the Germans would not have complained about their use.

Thanks.

Armand

The Marine Battalion commander of 2/8 "Jim" Crowe used a 12 gauge pump shotgun when he landed with the first wave at Tarawa. His unit landed on the left side of the pier and many Marines that were wading ashore took refuge under it. Crowe walked up and down under the pier putting his shotgun in the face of Marines hiding under the pier in a very threatening manner and ordered them to go to the beach. It worked. I could not find any real pictures.

egonzinc.com/photo4.html

Shotguns were also used in the mid-east mainly for blowing open locked doors.
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My friend in Bakhmut said he saw a guy with a double barrel breakdown sawed-off shotgun as his backup weapon. Definitely old school for trench clearing.

A friend of mine used a 12 gauge shotgun with flechettes in VN. Shotguns had the benefit of stripping cover foliage from targets.

IrishMarine: I have my grandfather's BAR he used in France in the Meuse-Argonne offensive. It works just fine. I have his binoculars too.

Some other interesting uses like shooting grenades out of the air like clay pigeons.
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Wolfhag

Good data… thanks!

Armand

I think Marine Corps T/Os are the only ones I've seen for various combatants that include shotguns. 100 per Mar Inf Regt and six for the MP Co, all appearing on the April 1943 documents and maintained through the subsequent wartime reorganisations. 22nd Marines note in their report on Phase III for Okinawa that they used 40 shotguns, of which 22 were lost or destroyed, and expended over 5000 12 gauge shells! The shotgun also featured on the Unit of Fire table at 25 rounds.

Gary

Both of the photos in the article showing the 1897 and 1912 models are incorrect. The actual weapons used by the military looked very different and they even had mounts for a bayonet. You can see the correct images here: link