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"the "I" word: cartels vs Natl Gd" Topic


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doc mcb09 Jan 2023 8:28 a.m. PST

link

A consequence of this is the transformation of cartel insurgencies into well-formed armies that recruit and employ uniformed soldiers, have supporting intelligence operations, and control terrain. The challenge now confronting state and federal law enforcement is no longer how to deter an insurgency; it's how to defeat an army.

Modern armies are resourced by nation-states who provide moral leadership in times of war. But the accountable governments of nation-states can falter and fail. Mexico in particular has a compromised central government that is not protecting its own homeland from subversive actors. When this happens, a conglomerate of paid professionals, mercenaries, conscripts, and criminals fills the void to either protect or exploit the resources of a community. It was true within the first communities of Mesopotamia, and it is happening now in communities across Mexico. This is how armies begin. A state is incapable of securing its communities, accountable governments lose legitimacy, and subversive actors start vying for control of terrain to exploit resources.

Thresher0109 Jan 2023 8:43 a.m. PST

Mexico is a fully compromised narco state.

One of the major drug heads caught and incarcerated in the USA was recently sent back to Mexico, and the leader there released him.

I wonder when El Chapo will secure his release too?

Given ALL those flooding over our borders, and the relaxation of drug laws, if not the actual normalization of drug use in many of our states now, I suspect it is only a matter of time until the USA is compromised like Mexico is now too.

One wonders how much the narcos are providing to those in charge on both sides of the border to look the other way, as they rake in BILLIONS for drug and human smuggling, and MILLIONS freely flow across the southern border annually?

Clearly, business IS very, very good for the cartels and those that run them.

doc mcb09 Jan 2023 9:30 a.m. PST

This writer (NG commander) criticizes Abbott's handling of NG troops, but the problem is very real. And Texas WILL find ways to defend itself.

ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa09 Jan 2023 9:47 a.m. PST

Money and having armed thugs operating freely will pretty quickly send a state down the toilet if unchecked. Its easy to denigrate people as 'corrupt' but I doubt anyone here has had the experience of being approached backed up by a couple of SUVs worth of hard-cases making suggestive comments about the mortality of your family and the flammability of your home or business. Even with an effective police force that approach is corrosive. And often the approach is far more subtle.

I wouldn't legitimise the narco-movement with the word 'invasion' they are criminals pure and simple. Despite their activities they don't actually run Mexican civil society just murder anyone who dares use any of societies levers against them or apparently refuse to sing at their wedding. The designation of terrorist is moot IMO. The problem is a complex one and has to be addressed as such.

Throttling their arms supply would help, but given the amounts of money they have and the qualities already in circulation it may not make that much difference.

Arguably the quickest way to kill their business is to legalise the manufacture and use of recreational drugs. And I'm not talking about the wishy-washy decriminalisation arguments, many of which would actually leave organised crime in de-facto control of the industry.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP09 Jan 2023 9:49 a.m. PST

The Cartels are running Mexico … it is a failed state … The Mex Military is in a shooting war with the Cartels/gangs. And the Cartels are winning. The Cartels & Gangs should be designated as terrorists. How many Americans need to die directly or indirectly because of the Cartels & gangs ? For them to be called terrorists.

Then we could use cruise missiles to target cartel and gang locations, convoys, etc. Will there be CD ? Probably. Taking out cartel bosses houses will kill non-combatants. We could not tell the Mex Gov't as they will tell the Cartels. Plus, it would be considered an act of war. So that could halt it …

The TX Gov and his staff understand what is going on. The Fed Gov't is ignoring it. The POTUS et al going to the border was a manufactured photo op. As he plans on running again in 2024. So, he can add this to is "accomplishments". Like the A'stan debacle …

Nothing will come of this "dog & pony" show. The flood of illegal aliens will continue to come and the ridiculous "catch & release" program is a big part of it. See what retired, former and current CBP, ICE, LEO, etc. have to say about the Fed Gov't's handling of the border. It is not good. Not good at all and the fingers point in one direction … 👉 Our elected and appointed officials …

doc mcb09 Jan 2023 10:14 a.m. PST

ROU, you really want to legalize fentanyl? Of course you are correct that the demand is there. But there are alternatives. Like shooting dealers. Like building a wall. Like ENFORCING existing laws.

There will ALWAYS be new and deadlier drugs. If we surrender on this one, then on the next one, then on the next one . . . I for one see major problems with that.

doc mcb09 Jan 2023 10:23 a.m. PST

For gaming purposes, I am curious what strength the cartels operate in? NG patrols would probably be as small as a single vehicle? NG would certainly be able to call for help very quickly. Anybody have any actual information, say about fights between Mexican army and cartels?

doc mcb09 Jan 2023 10:26 a.m. PST

tmd.texas.gov/state-guard

Texas State Guard is not under federal control. It could, I assume, be expanded as the state desires.

link

Thresher0109 Jan 2023 12:07 p.m. PST

From what I've read and seen, in many cases, the narcos are as well if not better armed than the police, and small military units they send against various cartel orgs.

Also, much of the military and police have been infiltrated by the cartels too, so those guys have to watch their backs as well, and frequently can't trust one another, or even their mayors, governors, or president.

The latter is the guy who just released a major drug guy, after he was turned over to Mexico from being imprisoned in the USA.

In some cases, even Mexican police/military helicopters have been downed by the cartel gangs – there's amazing video of that on-line.

The cartels have .50 cal MGs, small arms, LAWs and other RPGs, Manpads, and armored/bulletproof SUVs, in addition to other kit. Don't forget about their mini-sub fleet too.

Profits in the BILLIONS permit them to buy anyone and pretty much anything they desire, and to bribe many, many others.

As mentioned, those that don't go along with them are killed along with their family members.

I wonder how long it will be until we need to have another "ride" into Mexico to try to clean up the mess, like Pershing did back in the day?

Of course today it will be a lot more dangerous and messier than back then, with no guarantee, or even a significant confidence of success.

Given ALL the money, people, and drugs flowing over the border with NO reaction, I wonder how many on the north side of it in power have been compromised?

That seems to me to be the only explanation as to why NOTHING is being done to try to address the situation, and put a stop to it. Follow the money AND lack of action.

dogtail09 Jan 2023 12:18 p.m. PST

If US citizen would live drug free, would the cartels go bancrupt?

Thresher0109 Jan 2023 12:30 p.m. PST

Shades of Blue Thunder, though this is REAL and NOT fiction:

YouTube link

I disagree with the guy's opinion that all drugs need to be legalized, but he does cover how much power the cartels now have well.

YouTube link

YouTube link

Here's video of a Mexican Apache helo attacking a cartel leader's location and killing him with a minigun the buzzing sound you hear at the beginning is the gun firing incredibly fast:

YouTube link

The video footage from the air, as well as the ground view is incredible, especially when you consider that those tracers are only a small portion of the number of rounds being fired from the ammo belt, and the weapons stream looks like a large light-saber being wielded from the air.

ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa09 Jan 2023 1:55 p.m. PST

ROU, you really want to legalize fentanyl? Of course you are correct that the demand is there. But there are alternatives. Like shooting dealers. Like building a wall. Like ENFORCING existing laws.

Some ultra-libertarians might say make all substances legal and if you can afford it you can have it…. I'd say you have to have safety standards arguably more stringent than medical pharmaceuticals since there is no benefit. Frankly you'd probably end up with a system where nicotine and alcohol would have to have special dispensation!

The end users of drugs are a socio-medical problem rather than a criminal one. A 'war on drugs' has been and always will be an utter waste of money. You either have to kill the market or change it to remove the criminal element.

A wall won't stop anything, the UK has a huge moat, and drugs have never been in short supply. S. American drugs also turn up in Europe.

Mexico does present a particular problem due to the extent of the gang operations, their infiltration of society and a willingness to use extreme levels of violence. Frankly any kind of intervention, perhaps even at Mexico's request, could end up making Afghanistan look and cost like policing a small town bar fight!

35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP09 Jan 2023 1:56 p.m. PST

"If US citizen would live drug free, would the cartels go bancrupt?"

Well yes as far as drugs go. But they are making huge bucks with illegal immigration as well.

But yes, if those taking illegal drugs would stop, (most of which are for recreational purposes), the world would be a better place. But then they might have to deal with reality and I doubt most could face that.

Robert Johnson09 Jan 2023 1:56 p.m. PST

Considering that most of the cartel's weapons come across the border from the USA, you should get your own house in order first.

doc mcb09 Jan 2023 2:00 p.m. PST

FWIW:
link

Robert Johnson09 Jan 2023 2:09 p.m. PST

I didn't mean by starting another war in someone else's backyard. America has already proven itself inept at that.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP09 Jan 2023 3:41 p.m. PST

Mexico is one of our top trade partners and I think it's our second largest export market. It needs to be stabilized. I keep suggesting joint operations against the cartels. The Mexican government still has some loyalists. None of us here have first hand info on cartel OOBs, ops, etc. The cartels have long been on US agencies'radar. But if we get Mexican leaders to team up elite forces with ours and begin covert ops there, we can break up the bad guys. We need commitment and courage from them. There are people there who care.

Doc, these guys have only money. There is no cause, no inspiration. They are not an army. They are a large successful criminal organization. Remember the thousands of organized crime foot soldiers who have operated for generations in the US? They have wielded immense power by raw force and by corruption of our politicians. They have controlled billions of dollars, corporations, whole cities, drugs, prostitution, etc. Each boss calling up hundreds or even thousands of soldiers in their respective cities if needed.

Unfortunately, we cannot seem to do anything about decreasing the demand for drugs in America. IMO the only choice is to go get these guys using appropriate covert forces. You will not stop them at the border. That's fine with them if we try. Get them where they originate.

Bunkermeister Supporting Member of TMP09 Jan 2023 6:10 p.m. PST

Legalizing drugs does not help the problem. It only makes more people rich and more people doped up. Look at alcohol, plenty of money and plenty of people using it. We don't need that with meth, and fentynal, and all the other drugs.

Death penalty for drug trafficking, kidnapping, rape, and first degree murder, and execution within a year of conviction. Swift and sure, make the drug dealers afraid of the police again.

If you need the military then militarize some of the police. The military needs to be able to fight Communist China or North Korea, or Iran, not conduct law enforcement work. It only corrupts your military and we don't need corrupt people with nuclear weapons.

Stop spending money on giving steroids to hamsters and spend it on police and back up the cops. Build the wall, and kick out all 30 million illegal aliens.

None of this is rocket science or difficult. These problems have plagued societies before, even our own and they can be whipped by using those same techniques that worked in the past.

Wargame this by taking Spanish Civil War type home made armored cars, pick up trucks with machine guns and have them fight 1st World trained police with light armor, like Strikers, and on call air support. Cartels would lose.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP09 Jan 2023 6:45 p.m. PST

Well yes as far as drugs go. But they are making huge bucks with illegal immigration as well.
Yes, they may be making more $ on getting illegal aliens to our border. As all know the US Gov't's Catch & Release program is attracting the illegals like moths to a flame. The US Gov't has failed protecting its people. And in turn cost complicit in many of our citizens dying from drugs, being murdered, etc.

Considering that most of the cartel's weapons come across the border from the USA, you should get your own house in order first.
Do we know all those weapons are come to the cartels come from the US ? Most if not all of those weapons are easy to get from arms dealers and even others nation. If a nation sells weapons to another nation. There is no guarantee the end user nation will not in turn sells them to someone else. Been going on for a very long time. Deleted by Moderator

I didn't mean by starting another war in someone else's backyard. America has already proven itself inept at that.
We really should support the Mexican gov't in their war with the cartels. But the Mexican gov't like many in Central and South America, are very, very corrupt. As far as the US being inept in fighting an insurgency in another nation.

E.g. the Communist Vietnamese and Afghan tribes Deleted by Moderator both knew sooner or later the US like other armies before it would eventually go back home. It was just a matter of time.

Calling the US Military inept is not an accurate description. E.g., the Russian Army is inept. The US Military is nowhere near the Russian's incompetence.

Mexico is one of our top trade partners and I think it's our second largest export market. It needs to be stabilized.
As long as the Mexican Gov't is a corrupt as it is. It may be harder than one would think.

Regardless no troops on the ground save for on the US border. Cruise missile, drones, etc. should be used almost exclusively. Having HIMARs, M777 etc. in range are weapons the cartels and gangs have no way to stop those. As well armed as the cartels and the gangs are. They don't have the firepower the US military can bring to bear. But lets' hope it never gets the far. With Drones spotting for our FA, etc. Cruise Missiles taking out the cartel & gangs bosses' houses, supply points, convoys, etc. would be very effective. But those are acts of war. Unless the Mexican Gov't requests it. But again, they are corrupt.

Deleted by Moderator

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP09 Jan 2023 6:49 p.m. PST

I am not sure it's that simple, Mike. Some larger US police depts are essentially partly militarized already. But they are not really commando trained, some maybe in small numbers. SWAT groups do not conduct sustained operations of this type.

And this is not about nukes, I think. If you want to call the cartels terrorists, an existential threat to America, you need the military. Not all of it obviously. We have tech advantages, firepower, skills, drones, lots of tools. No follow up force to consolidate and occupy. Take them out, destroy the factories, confiscate the resources.

The wall will not stop them. But border tech and personnel need major support.

Evicting 30 million people is logistically impossible. And you can never stop people from using alchohol, drugs, whatever. But the threat here is so great as to be a military necessity.

And if the military have to look out for China and NK, it's not like the police don't have their hands full every day. The tranc dope crisis is going to be a major issue. It painfully destroys human tissue quickly after injection and will likely kill thousands of unsuspecting users.

IMO, getting this done requires military force to rapidly deploy and destroy the source of the problem. I hear what you are saying and we do need to get tougher on our end, but we cannot let these guys keep calling the shots with no real consequence to them.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP09 Jan 2023 7:02 p.m. PST

Doc, I do not know much about the NG these days. Are they trained and equipped for this level of opposition?

If we are not going to go in and get these guys, they will finds ways to get across even if the border is shut down. And there would be clashes.

I hate to sound reckless. Just frustrated. I have had enough of drugs everywhere over the years, death and destruction, like war.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP09 Jan 2023 7:17 p.m. PST

Many of our NG have combat experience. They wouldn't be the only ones protecting the border. The US "Regulars" with M1s, Bradleys, drones, etc., and our deadly FA should be there. We know how to shut down a border. Deleted by Moderator Along with the CBP, ICE, LEOs, etc. That is very unlikely … Deleted by Moderator

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP09 Jan 2023 9:04 p.m. PST

Yea, but there but there will be civilians, kids, running around everywhere, infiltrators among them. Tons of legit commercial traffic. Shooting on the border sounds like trouble. I don't disagree about shutting down for illegals, but I would also go after the drug strongholds where they live. You will never beat them otherwise.

doc mcb09 Jan 2023 9:50 p.m. PST

I think it will take layers, with lots of boots on the ground -- locals, I expect -- backed up by rapid response in AFVs and air, and supported by extensive electronic surveillance etc. the NG can provide the last and much of the second.

But I agree that offensives will be needed. and that requires Mexico's help (or vice versa).

Zephyr109 Jan 2023 10:34 p.m. PST

If/when the fighting comes, it will be "no quarter". There will be massive collateral damage. On both sides. And the cartels won't flinch. US ROE would have to be changed, drastically (which I don't see happening, ever. One "war crimes massacre" by the US, and it'll be back to kid gloves.)

But the first step is to seal the borders. Won't happen for a while, though, too many working against it, either complicit or misguided…

ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa10 Jan 2023 12:31 a.m. PST

Sealing the border won't stop drugs, end of, its believed to be an option because it appears it may solve a partially related problem… and it won't solve that one either.

35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP10 Jan 2023 6:53 a.m. PST

ROU, since you say closing the border won't help, I say the following only partially tongue in cheek. Should we take the: "if the mountain won't come to Muhammad, then Muhammad must go to the mountain", approach? Should we send the drug users to the drugs? If You are caught 3 times taking illegal drugs, we take away your citizenship and ship you to Mexico or Columbia? if you are dealing illegal drugs twice, same thing.

At least I'm thinking outside the box.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP10 Jan 2023 7:56 a.m. PST

I was thinking about the Rules as well, complex at the border, less so if you go for the production and personnel. A lot of planning for an anti-cartel op, would need to be wrapped tight.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP10 Jan 2023 8:34 a.m. PST

But the first step is to seal the borders. Won't happen for a while, though, too many working against it, either complicit or misguided…
Bingo … and more Americans will die …

Sealing the border won't stop drugs, end of, its believed to be an option because it appears it may solve a partially related problem… and it won't solve that one either.
Disagree totally … tons of drugs are captured at the border. Will it stop all of it ? No but it will make it harder for more drugs to cross. And less Americans will die.

The Border must be close completely to regain control. And it can be done. We know how to shut down a border. I had two tours on the ROK DMZ, '84-'85. It can be done … we just have to have the will to do it. And not let those in the US gov't etc. think it is OK for open borders. Most crossing the border do not qualify for asylum. Numbers as high as 90% by CBP, ICE, etc. reports. Economic reasons in a country does qualify coming to the US illegally. It was just said again by a TX official along the border on the news.

However, the Deleted by Moderator catch & release" policy is attracting illegal aliens like vultures on carrion. The Cartels get rich running illegals and drugs. Along with sex trafficking, selling people for body parts, etc. Yes, that is happening.

Illegal aliens come from over 130-160 counties worldwide. Those are CBP, LEO, etc. numbers. They know … they are there. Over 100 on the terrorist watch list have been caught, plus high numbers of gang members. Some illegals are wearing camo clothing to avoid capture. None of these are here for anything but more criminal activity. Gitmo has a lot of open cells.

The border can't remain open as it is with a corrupt Mexican Gov't. The high numbers of criminals, drugs, sex trafficking, etc. has to be stopped.

Note: in the last POTUS Admin, the CBP, ICE, LEOs, etc. said and say the border was more under control than it had been in decades. Their words not mine. We know how to control the border.

Deleted by Moderator

Again, we know how to get control of the border. Deleted by Moderator

Now the Mexican gov't wants more $ from the US. Just reported on the news. As long as they can't stop illegals crossing their Southern border on their way here … Why should we give them $ ? They are corrupt.

ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa10 Jan 2023 11:18 a.m. PST

I'd point out that even the poster child for sealed borders North Korea leaks – even a little bit through the DMZ. I wonder how much it costs in total for all participants to police those borders! Restrict the Mexican land border and all that will happen is other smuggling routes such as those up through the Caribbean will expand to meet demand. Europe is a long way from S. America but is hardly short of cocaine if the swabs of nightclub and Westminster Palace toilets is anything to go by… Suggest 100% stop and search of all incoming traffic and I'm pretty sure that the personal devices of every single Senator and Representative will immediately meltdown as they are bombarded by messages from every corporate and lobbyist connection that have! Even if it jumped that hurdle the additional costs and delays will eventually filter through to US consumers… It would probably bring down a presidency.

we take away your citizenship and ship you to Mexico or Columbia

Classy, morally wrong on so many levels and unworkable since S. American countries will likely tell the US to Bleeped text itself for a start! Noting a number of people here have certain sceptical position regarding the US Federal Government – what is being suggested gives that Government the legal power to strip a US citizen of their citizenship and the rights and deport them. Think about it. There is currently a particularly interesting and allegedly unpleasant piece of work going through the extradition process in Scotland – there is already a chance he may not be extradited because of the conditions of the US prison system. A risk of a person being rendered stateless would pretty much prevent any US criminal being extradited back to the States. Not sure victims and victims rights groups would make of that.

As for the pull factors of the US economy that's a whole other problem without a military solution (unless you fancy adding a few more stars to the flag?)

Robert Johnson10 Jan 2023 12:04 p.m. PST

ROU many Americans fail to realise that the harsh solutions they espouse might bite them on the arse. Deleted by Moderator

35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP10 Jan 2023 1:52 p.m. PST

ROU, as I said, it was said partially "tongue in cheek". But I will continue as devil's advocate.

"Classy, morally wrong on so many levels and unworkable since S. American countries will likely tell the US to Bleeped text itself for a start!"

As I said 3 strikes for drug users, 2 for drug dealers. Plenty of chance to get yourself in order.

Why should we be concerned with the mortality of it for the drug dealer? Does the drug dealer consider the morality of what he does or she does? The person who buys their drugs and dies. The family tragedies involved? The police officer killed and maimed? The cost to the taxpayers? The grief their drugs bring? All they care about is the money and power.

Why should we be concerned with the morality, for the drug taker? Do they care about those who suffer and die, just so they can escape reality for a short time? For the tragedies of the families impacted? For the cost to other taxpayers? All they care about is themselves. The consummate self centered individual.

So a few countries we send them to don't like it. They haven't stopped the drug makers in their countries and they sure as H#ll have not stopped the mass exodus to the US of illegals from and through their countries. I would think turnaround is fair play.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP10 Jan 2023 2:29 p.m. PST

In the last admin, the crisis brewing in Latin America had not really exploded. And we have kept Title 42 going.

ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa10 Jan 2023 3:33 p.m. PST

ROU, as I said, it was said partially "tongue in cheek".

Even tongue in cheek. No, just no.

The consummate self centered individual.

Which at a nation state level would be attempting to palm its criminal elements off on other countries…

Correlation is not causation, but drug misuse correlates with economic inequality. Just saying.

35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP10 Jan 2023 3:48 p.m. PST

ROU drug misuse goes all over the spectrum. From the highest places, to the lowest places in every society. From the Ghettos to the Colleges to Hollywood. One only need look at the son of the POTUS to see it. It was out for everyone to see him doing it on his laptop. Sadly, there are just too many out there who have no thoughts, except for themselves and their own self gratifications.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP10 Jan 2023 4:40 p.m. PST

I'd point out that even the poster child for sealed borders North Korea leaks even a little bit through the DMZ.
We sent recon and ambush patrols out day & night. Along with our sister Infantry Bn in sector. Plus we had two very well armed and fortified Plt Guard Posts in our sector. In my two 2 tour we had no infiltrations at least in our AO. We also had an FA Plt of 155s at a fortified firing point right across the road from our FOB. Just in case our patrols or guard posts needed a little firepower.

ROU many Americans fail to realise that the harsh solutions they espouse might bite them on the arse. Pseudo-fascists are rarely rational thinkers
I don't think some realize that shutting down the border is to regain control. Then we can work on the rest later. Patch the hole in the boat to stop it from sinking. Then be concerned about what's for dinner, etc.

Deleted by Moderator

Just saw on the news. These small border towns only have one hospital. Overrun with illegals. Which is costing them millions of dollars. While their own citizens can't always get medical support.

Deleted by Moderator

Bunkermeister Supporting Member of TMP10 Jan 2023 10:16 p.m. PST

"Evicting 30 million people is logistically impossible."

False.

There are nearly a million police in the United States. If you require every police agency to arrest and transfer every illegal alien they met to a Federal agency they would all be gone in a few years. This used to be common practice.

If each cop arrested one illegal alien a month, they would all be gone in less than three years. Don't let them get welfare, don't let them go to school, or get any benefits from the government, don't finance private organizations that help them.

Stop catch and release, run the immigration courts 24/7.

This is not hard we just need to have the will power to do it and it won't cost that much.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP11 Jan 2023 8:25 a.m. PST

We will have to agree to disagree here, Mike.

IMO. You cannot really simplify the organization and functions of the police to meet this goal. And I do not believe there are one million police officers available, plus the federal personnel to accommodate, transport, process, and adjudicate millions of people so quickly. And I think huge costs would be involved.

I agree the system needs a new direction and an overhaul to get control of this without turning it into an authoritarian nightmare. The PR images might play right into the hands of our enemies around the world. There has never been compromise reform on immigration that I know of, and we are entering another period of no legislative results in any case.

35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP11 Jan 2023 8:36 a.m. PST

Even if you just start sending some back, it's better than the alternative. We all know what their alternative is….

"A push by Democratic lawmakers and activists to grant a pathway to citizenship for millions of illegal immigrants, which saw significant political weight put behind it in 2021, has been put on the back burner in 2022 after the effort saw multiple defeats last year.

When campaigning in 2020, then-candidate Joe Biden promised to work with Congress on a massive immigration reform bill "with a priority on keeping families together by providing a roadmap for citizenship for nearly 11 million undocumented immigrants.""

This is just not acceptable. You cannot reward illegal acts. It just leads to more. We tried it once and it was a failure. I would also rescind the automatic citizenship of children born in this country to "illegal" immigrants. That would get rid of the "anchor baby" arguments.

Yes it's cold, but we are past the time for being nice.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP11 Jan 2023 9:10 a.m. PST

35th, I think there is some sort of balance to go for here between practical and humanitarian approaches. The Dreamers made sense to me. Title 42 is a band aid. But the first thing to do is get the border under control with a system and resources that function. You can't just walk in. But we cannot ultimately be true to our American values by sealing off borders to immigration.

There are no leaders on either side, IMO. Like so many things. Moderates are, by definition perhaps, less dramatic than the extremes holding our attention. But I wonder how many people want both sides to compromise? The is the ultimate leadership skill. Anybody can look dramatic and give orders. When the agenda is to "own" the other side, we repeatedly end up with no meaningful governance. Moderates are desperate to see the country more or less reunited.
No issue is more in need of action than immigration. Both sides must give.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP11 Jan 2023 9:35 a.m. PST

"Evicting 30 million people is logistically impossible."
It would take a very concerted effort, including Federal involvement which won't happen. And a lot of time. Don't fund Sanctuary cities either. They invited everyone to the party … it's on them. Allow CBP, ICE, etc. to do their jobs …

Don't let them get welfare, don't let them go to school, or get any benefits from the government, don't finance private organizations that help them.
You have to take away incentives for them to come. Especially when 80-90% don't qualify for asylum, etc. anyway. Many NGOs, e.g. churches, charities, etc. are helping illegals. Which sounds like a good thing to do. But not at these numbers. They need Fed $ too to continue to this. People need to stop giving $ to these organizations. I know some have already said that too.

Stop catch and release, run the immigration courts 24/7.
That policy is as I said drawing them in like vultures on carrion. Can't think of a better example.

The Fed Gov't could hire many of more lawyers and even e.g. retired judges/magistrates. Even Law school students could do a paid internship. That goes towards their graduation criteria, etc. But note I said paid. You have to pay people to work. More $ spend on illegal aliens … money better spent elsewhere IMO. On US citizens, etc. …

This is not hard we just need to have the will power to do it
That won't happen anytime soon … Deleted by Moderator

Deleted by Moderator

How can we let this go on?

Bottom line we can't … Deleted by Moderator

35th OVI +1

ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa11 Jan 2023 9:39 a.m. PST

I don't think some realize that shutting down the border is to regain control.

That's kind of the point I'm making. Some of argument about the UK leaving the EU was about regaining control of sovereign borders. And look how well that's gone on a number of levels! Borders will leak end of story you will never have total control. Its how you manage that leakage which is the question.

Border areas are perpetually abandoned by centralised authorities. Can't really comment on the US experience but I'd bet a couple of pints on the fact at the back it somewhere are State and Federal legislators playing a blame game for entirely partisan reasons while officials beat their heads off a desk. Basically marginal areas are often safety ignored because of relative unimportance in the grand political scheme of things. I'd bet an awful lot US politicians at all levels in those areas take big on controlling immigration. I'd bet another couple of pints they've not delivered much help on that issue. I mean why would you attempt to fix a problem that will reliably get you re-elected (yes I am that cynical)?

Evicting 30 million people is logistically impossible.

False.

I'd sort of agree not impossible just wildly difficult and expensive. The UKs immigration system is train wreck the current government has been playing hardball on the issue for the benefit of its grassroots. The reality is though the system is chronically under resourced, cases take way to long to resolve, they are often so badly done that they get thrown out by the courts, and the same government that made cuts to international development aid because developing countries can't be trusted with the British money has decided to give a developing country huge wodges of taxpayer money to run an offshore asylum centre… Regardless of the politics if you want to have an immigration system that works you have to pay for it and ideally take the political rhetoric out of it. And I look forward to bacon falling from the sky…

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP11 Jan 2023 12:19 p.m. PST

Bacon from the sky! I'll vote for that. I think I have voted for that before, but the beef lobby won out.

ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa11 Jan 2023 1:50 p.m. PST

appointed officials

Not totally sure about the US system – but surely appointed officials are stuck doing what the elected ones tell them regardless of what the budget or the sanity of the instruction?

Striker11 Jan 2023 3:16 p.m. PST

But then they might have to deal with reality and I doubt most could face that.

Especially the fact that it's very far from some rosy existence and that anyone who has the power cares about your lot. Better to keep people stupid and pliable. Until the demand stops the supply will always be there and the demand won't stop until some hard looking is done and painful questions are asked and answered. So same old, same old, forever.

For gaming I have some of the Brigade Games policia (not sure if Mexican or some other country at the moment) and a good pile of gang guys. Probably use Spectre, Skirmish Sangin, or the new In Country I'm waiting for.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP11 Jan 2023 4:05 p.m. PST

Appointed officials are generally there as payback from elected officials. They are fully politicized and especially difficult to work for, in my experience, for many reasons.

The rank and file either avoid them or look for favors. But they never stay the same for long. The last admin. had unusual numbers of staff changes and vacancies, I believe. My guess is most people did their jobs and kept their heads down.

Strong leadership gets buy in from all sides around a vision, via compromise and integrity. Difficult in recent years, not much policy addressed, lots of posturing. The border needs consensus management to truly be fixed in the long run.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP11 Jan 2023 4:22 p.m. PST

I agree … And the border needs be a #1 priority. But we may have to wait for that to happen, sadly. What is 300/day of dead American for 23 months ?

35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP11 Jan 2023 6:04 p.m. PST

I saw this story today on FOX. This is symbolic of what a lot of us have been saying in this and one other thread. This is part of the problem and is draining taxpayers money.

Subject: You're Welcome: Illegals in NYC Tossing Free Food


link

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP11 Jan 2023 7:40 p.m. PST

Saw that on the news too … oh well …

Dagwood12 Jan 2023 10:57 a.m. PST

With Democrats generally more relaxed about the immigration, and Republicans now dominated by a right wing that is determined to cut expenditure, I don't see any action for at least the next two years.

Even if a Republican government gets elected in 2024, I think the right wing of the party will still be cutting expenditure to the point of paralysis.

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