
"A humble casual wargamer looking for your insight" Topic
18 Posts
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Butchbird | 04 Jan 2023 9:35 a.m. PST |
Greetings First, I can't keep myself from mentioning how oddly complicated it has been to find an active forum on which to ask my questions, it is somewhat disturbing to this technologically retarded individual that, even with the 3 days moratorium, in this in this forum that I can finally adress my querys to the more knowledgeable then I. *Contextualisation* I'm a casual wargamer with little means and time to induldge in this wonderfull hobby. While equiping myself and playing various era's of wargaming has always been a suppressed desire, I've nonetheless been a player of a sci-fi miniature game(Battletech, who's qualification for a wargame/miniature game is debatable) for many years. Most of my strategy gaming is done with my wife in "grand scale strategy" games. I've tried many a thing (always on the cheap side for I'm a cheapskate) to get her into a more "tactical level" wargame (well, any wargame really) for 10 years now. Well a few days ago I stumbled on a ad from a miniature shop advertising the tobruk starter set for flames of war. 20 vehicles for 70$. Told her about it and to my pleasant surprise she told me to get it for she was interested. For having perused the forum, I get the feeling that V4 isn't all that popular, but it's more streamlined rules will be better suited to my needs, just wanted to make this clear concerning my questions. As I've always longed to equip myself in historical miniature, I'm evidently already thinking of the future, for how can one appreciate WW2 whithout combined arms? So here I am to ask for your collective wisdom. My goal is evidently to get enough units to play the "whole variety" while paying as little as possible by using proxys for the miniatures…while I will grind my teeths pretending that M14/41 is a L6/40, or that 76mm AT canon a 105mm howitzer, my monetary means will make it a must. *The core, that I'll try to break down in clear questions as much as possible.* Reading up on FoW, I've come to understand that the goal of the company is to encourage a rigidity in force compositions. Hence I think the the various "force books" (like "desert rats" for example) serve as what the warhammer crowd refers to as a "codex". I've understood that it is relatively impossible to play whithout said codex of this ot that faction that you play. But then there are also the unit cards and command cards in FoW that seem to offer more or less the same possibilitys as a book of 65$, though i'm not sure if they can replace the book or merely complement it. So… 1) Is the book "north africa" really a MUST to play the north africa theatre? 2) Are command and unit cards "stand alone" or are they merely complimentary to said book. 3) I have perused the V3 free force books and after a rudimentary cross checking found that it doesn't offer the possibility of being used in V4 for unit stats seem to differ (notably). So this brings me to asking myself, if the force books are mandatory does that mean that they at least contain all the information to make up your own force cards? Or even better print them out of it? 4) To what point do the command cards "offer more"? I mean, of course I'd like to be able to field Canadian forces instead of British, but are command cards really the only way to go? Wouldn't the force book offer something along those lines? 5) Aside from unit stats, what are the big differences between the content of the V3 north-africa force book and the V4? 6) On a somewhat different note, is a 6'6'' X 3' board big enough to accomodate a good battle? I think that wraps it up. Thank you all in advance for taking the time to read and hopefully answer and here's to hoping that my wife will like the game and I'll have the go signal to get more then just the tobruk starter set making my search for a FoW forum not a complete waste of time. |
gbowen | 04 Jan 2023 10:18 a.m. PST |
1) Is the book "north africa" really a MUST to play the north africa theatre? – No 2) Are command and unit cards "stand alone" or are they merely complimentary to said book. – I don't know 3) I have perused the V3 free force books and after a rudimentary cross checking found that it doesn't offer the possibility of being used in V4 for unit stats seem to differ (notably). – Correct go with V3 or V4 – there are or were update books when v4 came out So this brings me to asking myself, if the force books are mandatory does that mean that they at least contain all the information to make up your own force cards? Or even better print them out of it? – Cards are a waste of table space, they scatter and you can never find the right one – write your own force cribs 4) To what point do the command cards "offer more"? I mean, of course I'd like to be able to field Canadian forces instead of British, but are command cards really the only way to go? Wouldn't the force book offer something along those lines? – The force book would be the way to go for v3 5) Aside from unit stats, what are the big differences between the content of the V3 north-africa force book and the V4? – V4 is simplified and the points are different 6) On a somewhat different note, is a 6'6'' X 3' board big enough to accomodate a good battle? – That will be fine although 4' is the approved depth and some scenarios would not work out at 3' others could be tweaked by changing deployment depths. Overall summary stick with v3 or look at other rules. v4 threw the baby out with the bathwater and most players left with it |
Saber6  | 04 Jan 2023 2:31 p.m. PST |
'Overall summary stick with v3 or look at other rules' Depending on your knowledge or access to WW-II materials, other rules might make more sense. One thing with Flames of War is that the rules are tied to selling models and 'stuff' you need to play their game. There are MANY sources of WW-II figures and Vehicles. If space is an issue look at 6 or 10mm figures. These may alos be cheaper. Based on the rules you pick (and there are a number of those) you can also measure with cm instead of inches, thus making your table 'larger' |
Col Piron | 05 Jan 2023 2:14 a.m. PST |
One thing with Flames of War is that the rules are tied to selling models and 'stuff' you need to play their game Not really as their vehicles and infantry can be used with any WW2 rules ( even better now they have stopped putting cards in the boxes/blisters ) . What BF don't make now can be got from other sources .  |
Butchbird | 05 Jan 2023 8:14 a.m. PST |
Well, thing is, as I've said, I'm going use the V4 rules. While if it was just me I'd rather use "more historical and in-depth" ruleset, the fact that I'll be mainly playing with the wife and my daughter means that a simple streamlined ruleset is the best option. The problem for me is unit stats and abilities, hence why I asked if I could use the V3 forcebook instead (as I've gotten this free on the internet) of the V4, but with V4 ruleset (since those were in the box set and they are streamlined version to boot). As for other stuff…in my area it's pretty limited. I actually had to order my FoW starter from another province. In my immediate region the only "FLGS" pretty much only deals in magic and pokemon cards, a bit of D&D and warhammer. To my knowledge the only WW2 miniature crowd in my province is mostly centered on Bolt Action and the playing spaces are 2 hours drive away…besides even if it were closer I wouldn't really have the time. |
Extra Crispy  | 05 Jan 2023 8:57 a.m. PST |
Yes, you can easily se a V3 forcebook with V4 rules. Just be consistent and use one book for both sides (applies to both unit stats and unit costs aka "points"). The cards are not at all necessary to play. I used to make my own for V3 but found they clutter the table. Instead I created a custom QRS where the unit stats are on the QRS. So morale and skill ratings in the morale section, shooting stats in the shooting section and so on. Since you are playing at home 6mm is definitely worth a look. They are fast to paint and IMHO the game looks much, much better that way. But playing with a daughter the bigger toys might be much more engaging. |
stephen m | 05 Jan 2023 9:03 a.m. PST |
Butchbird where are you located? I know a few guys in various areas. I second using 6mm but that is how I started and it is still my main love in gaming. I also have a few opinions on rules but your needs are a little different. |
WarWizard | 05 Jan 2023 9:06 a.m. PST |
I never played FOW prior to V4. So can't speak on rules prior to v 4. I really like using the V4 cards. Based on my limited experience and only playing tanks battles so far, I think 90% + of the rules you need are on the cards. I think adding the cards was a great idea. |
Butchbird | 05 Jan 2023 9:26 a.m. PST |
I'm in Québec, Mauricie region, not too far from Shawinigan (so Trois-Rivières ain't too far either). Yes, 6mm would've been the best option for me, 'specially since I could then use the minis as proxys for my Battletech games…but I've now commited to FoW for WW2 so 15 mm it is…and besides, as you said, 15mm is more engaging for my kid. As for using V3 force book with V4 rules, besides stats I saw there were also "special characteristics",for example some units have "blood 'n guts" ability for assaults or something ( still getting started on reading rules), but I couldn't find those in the unit stats in the V3 forcebook, I guess they would only be in the V4? Or have I not looked in the proper section? I'd also tend to agree with the cards. The different battletech game systems use sheets or cards and I'm pretty well set-up to use these gaming aids (lots of small tables and clip-boards for the win!). But since, *IF* this is a hit with the wife, I'm looking to get respectable sized armys for the 4 north africa armys, the cards might end up costing a fair deal, 'specially since this store has sold that set out and that other store this other set is sold out, and I have to order everything with delivery (as far as I know). |
Butchbird | 05 Jan 2023 10:41 a.m. PST |
Okay, clear question, should've thought to fomulate it this way before. Is all the information on unit cards contained in the North-africa compilation V4 forcebook? |
Col Piron | 05 Jan 2023 11:14 a.m. PST |
You may still be able to get these , The Flames Of War, 1939-41 and 1944-45 Rulebook and Special Rules and Warriors, 1939-41 and 1944-45 Book , to use with V3 list books .
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Gus51RM  | 05 Jan 2023 1:35 p.m. PST |
Hi Butcherbird. I am right on the west coast of Vancouver Island, aged just over 71 and have wargamed in many scales and eras. I am currently doing Chain of Command and using two scales. 20mm and 28mm. Lots of good fun. However I really enjoy a realistic outcome from the rules so having some House Rules greatly assists the game. I have read and have a small WW2 book collection that supports my gaming. Years ago I played a board game, Mansteins Battles, 1941 Russia trying to take Smolensk. My wife played the Russians; and I was trounced. She had no preconceived notions. Just win! So do you want to game at 1:1 skirmish or move up to Battalion level or Divisional? To support the ratio I believe the scale you use is important. Let me know your thoughts and we can take this further if you desire. Ray |
Butchbird | 05 Jan 2023 2:33 p.m. PST |
Unfortunately, upon further examination, I'm now pretty sure that the V3 force books are inadapted to V4 rules. If I'm not mistaken, all the unit stats in the V3 forcebook are in the "arsenal" section, but some characteristics from V4 arn't there and some basic stats arn't the same. The V4 forcebook, from what youtube videos have allowed me to see, don't have a "arsenal" section, so I guess they have the unit cards as pictures inside the book in the section breaking down the various company's…but I can't be sure of this unless someone confirms. Are the unit cards contained in the "Flames of War Mid-War "North Africa" Desert Compilation"? If so, thayt'll settle it for me, ain't gonna get easier/cheaper for my needs. As for scale, as I've said, 6mm would have been the best for me, but FoW and the 15mm scale it is. I'm hoping, as far as FoW is concerned, to get at battalion level. Don't have enough playing space for larger then that (even at 6mm that would be tight)…unless some day I get the time and money to make something out of my basement but that's a whole other story. |
stephen m | 06 Jan 2023 6:12 p.m. PST |
Butchbird I was hoping you were a little further west in Montreal. I am an hour north of Toronto but know some gamers in the Ottawa area which might have worked for you. Unfortunately I don't know anyone as far east as you so no joy hooking you up with potential opponents. I was exposed to Flames of War a few years back and not impressed at all. But if it suits your needs then go for it. So I have no help for you there. If you want to do skirmish level games (about a platoon per side where each trooper is a single unit) then you could try Chain of Command. If you hunt around on the internet you can often find older versions of these rules and supplemental material free. Bttletech is definitely a wargame. It is still very popular in this area and growing in popularity. If you can afford a weekend away there are some good games conventions within a couple hours of Toronto and I suggest if you can get out to CanGames which runs in Ottawa on the May long weekend. I find bolt action different from FoW, more akin to Chain of Command but a very poor second. Like FoW BA is all points driven and prone to "I always have to use MY favorite unit" mentality. It's only claim to fame is each game turn all players activate every one of their units so no one gets bored. Unless they are playing the game that is. Do you have to buy the cards or can you make them from the stats in the books? I understand you are stuck with different generations of the rules. That is another negative for me the "everything is new and all the old doesn't work anymore" mentality of games like FoW. Add or swap new rules but the way combat is conducted doesn't change. Oh and btw I am just over 60 and been gaming for 50 years. I started in micro armour (1/285, 6mm or 1/300) and still love it. Good luck on your gaming. |
Butchbird | 06 Jan 2023 10:56 p.m. PST |
Yeah, I can see why a veteran wargamer wouldn't be impressed by FoW. As I play with the intro rules and read the rest, I can't help but think that everything is substandard compared to, say, the battleground series of video games from talonsoft back in the days. But it definitely suits my needs. Been trying to find a wargame that my wife would like for 10 years now, and FoW is finally it. I'll finally be able to play more then just Battletech 7 times per year. FoW is Simple enough, the setting she can relate to, there's enough variety in units…even my young daughter is getting a kick out of it, the basics of moving along the measuring tape and rolling dices while playing a "grown up game" are quite pleasing to her. Much better then just rolling for me. For all it lacks, FoW is great for wargaming newcomers. Watched all the "unboxing" video I could, figured it was impossible for unit stats and abilities not to be in the book (definitely hate the buisness model of constant rule changes from version to version and the force building and all…but thats how it goes I suppose, still, compared to Battletech where you can still use your material from 1987 save for a few small details, its somewhat sad), so Alea jecta est, the wife gave the go signal and I ordred it along with 2 more starter sets for more variety in tank models and infantry/artillery support once we get there. Thank you all for your support. Again I feel like I must point out this forum is the only one where I got support (though I don't know about discord and reddit feels kind of alien to me so I suppose I was a bit limited for these days). I'll post concerning whether everything really is in the book once I get it in case someone else goes through the same quest for knowledge. |
stephen m | 07 Jan 2023 4:52 a.m. PST |
A lot of veteran gamers play FoW. I just find it very old school, as in it could have been written in the '60s wrt mechanics. So much better concepts and techniques have come out since then. But some people keep to old school or the points system suits their needs. Not mine. 1987? Newbie! I played Battletech when it was called Battledroids (before Lucas sued them for "name infringement". Very much Star Fleet Battles on land. You should google FoW forum. Probably on Facebook. I am on Discord for a few things but have to mute most of the channels as there are just too many posts that overwhelmed me. Only a few percent interest or apply to me and my gaming. Still look in from time to time and catch up. |
Butchbird | 07 Jan 2023 3:14 p.m. PST |
As for FoW rules, I'm somewhat disapointed with the "bailing out/pinned down" rules and artillery. Well, I guess I should reserve my judgement for artillery 'till I try it, but for "bailed out/pinned down", I much prefered the disruption system from the battleground series…though I suppose it might be harder to implement it in tapletop compared to the computer. Maybe the older versions of FoW are better also, I wouldn't know but from what I understood reading up on some forums, V4 is watered down (which ironically is good for my needs) And indeed a newbie compared to you "grognards", I wasn't even born for battledroids, got into it with the 3rd edition, good for me as there were plastic minis in that box. I searched google for FoW forums, but the results were disapointing. The battlefront FoW forum is dead (newbie questions dating a month ago still go unanswered), the "no dice no glory" forum didn't admit me (maybe the guy in charge of admission is on holidays)…so yeah. I'm aware forum ain't the "in" thing nowdays, but that's what I'm confortable with. And finally got the last answer I really needed. Found a "flipthrough" video for another mid-war FoW V4 forcebook and the unit cards are in it. I won't regret my purchase. Newbies passing through, take note of it. |
Col Piron | 07 Jan 2023 3:23 p.m. PST |
The battlefront FoW forum is dead (newbie questions dating a month ago still go unanswered), the "no dice no glory" forum didn't admit me (maybe the guy in charge of admission is on holidays)…so yeah. BF closed their forums a few years back , except for the events bit ( because they were becoming toxic ) and moved to facebook ( which is even more toxic ) . As for NDNG they are having trouble with malware at the moment |
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