"1866 12-pounders" Topic

In 1866 war, bronze, smothbore 12-pounders were widely used by both Prussian and army and their west-German opponents.

Do we know anyhing abouth these guns ?
Firing distance, projectile and piece weight ?

12 pounders sound to be quite heavy pieces, but the formed Prussian horse artillery, so the were not so beavy. Or maybe there were several types of them – I read about Prussian HA pieces as being "light (or short) 12-pounders).

Any info appreciated.

A book on Prussian Artillery in 1866
link

A couple other references
hmwrs.com/WhoUsedWhat.htm
link
link

Thanks, but I dont own a copy of "Prussian Artillery in the Campaign of 1866" and linked webpages dont consider such subtleties as differences between obsolete guns.

DisasterWargamer : Thank you for sharing all of those wonderful references! The hmwrs.com/WhoUsedWhat.htm link really addresses the OPs questions quite well for the rifled side of things.Towards the end is a chart that shows ranges at what degree and includes lateral variances at range.

Although the article deals with rifled arty and the OP wanted info on SB guns, I would refer him to the excellent series by Dr. Summerfield "The Smoothbore Ordinance Journal" (Ken Trotman Books) and find the volumes he is most interested in. Here is a link where these can be found: This is issue 9: https//kentrotman.co.uk/newbooks/smoothbore-ordnance-journal-volume-nine-franco-prussian-and-krupp-artillery/

Again, I appreciate your share for us here!

Likewise Dye4minis

Maciek72: Here is a link that may answer a few of your questions:

link

Dye4minis
I know this page.
Again – it centers on rifled gun.

OK, guys.

In this book:
link

Prussian horse artillery 12-pounder is called "kurz" or SHORT.
On page 215 starts a chapter about this gun, that I have yet to study, but it seems than Prussian 12-pounder was lighter than other countries counterpart.

Anyone speaking fluently German, please help me to translate this page.

Hi Maciek,

These were not ‘obsolete' pieces, but relatively new guns designed to cope with the perceived problem caused by the poor performance of rifled guns at short ranges using canister. Consider them the Prussian equivalent of ACW ‘Napoleon' gun howitzers. They were the model 1859, and were only being introduced in the early 1860s. Unfortunately they proved to be something of an evolutionary dead end, as their relatively short range led to them being picked off by longer ranged rifled batteries. They were all replaced between 1866 and 1870. The Prussians were not alone in this experiment, certainly both the Saxons and Bavarians deployed such guns in 1866. And, if my memory is correct, the Bavarians ended up in deploying a couple of batteries of them in the Franco-Prussian War.

Hi Mollinary,

do you suggest that German 12-pounders were new designs ?
All of them (Bavarian, Wurttemberg also) ?
I ask, because it seems than only Prussian used 12-pdrs as horse artillery.
Moreover, as weight of new light guns did not exceed 960kg, French 12-pdrs of rather new design weighed 1200kg.
If Prussian chose guns for their horse artillery, it should be of lighter type, not heavy ones.

Hence my question
You know that I want to know everything about the period I'm interested in.

Hi again. I am no expert on Wurttemberg, but in both the Bavarian and Saxon armies of 1866, the foot artillery were a mix of Krupp rifled 6pdr and 12pdr smoothbores, and the horse artillery were 12pdr smoothbores. This is confirmed in both of their official histories. The 12 pdr Bavarian smoothbores are described as firing ‘special shells' but ‘as a result of earlier experiments it could only fire in a high, curving trajectory.' I believe all these guns to be relatively modern ‘shell guns' but wonder if NapStein can help?

maciek72. Prussia used quite a few 12lb guns in Horse Arty batteries. Main reason was that their performance in the ACW. These light and short barreled guns were perfect for fighting at close range. A number of German Armies brought new versions into service along side their rifled brethren. The model 1859 which started entering service in the early 1860's were the ones equipping the Prussian 12 lb horse arty in 1866. (Source: Wargaming in History, Vol. 8, The Austro-Prussian War of 1866, Page 27.) There is a pretty comprehensive OOB for Austrian and Prussian Armies and include which organizations had what type of guns (and how many) in the batteries. I found this rather pricy book to be worth the money if only for the scenarios and mods to Regimental Fire and Fury for this war. For sure, the Saxons have a few 12 lb Horse arty batteries.(All SB)

Thanks Tom, I co-authored that book! As the Prussians and Bavarians also did, The Saxons used these guns in both horse and foot batteries.

Hi guys. Thanks for very informative posts !
SO you say that Prussian, Saxon and Bavarian 12-prds were new designs.

Thank you for information !

Interestingly, the Hanoverians also seem to have had a mix of 6pdr Krupp rifled batteries, and 12pdr smoothbore horse and foot batteries.

My info is this – and I'm very happy to be corrected if you can point me to the source. Details on this gun are hard to find (Muller says next to nothing).

12pdr. bronze, M1859:

Maximum weight of propellant charge 0.950kgs.

Shell: bursting charge 0.19kgs, total weight 4.450kgs, fuze timed flash/ignition, max range 1600m.

Schrapnel: no of balls 98/110, no info re bursting charge, total weight 5.65kgs, fuze timed flash/ignition, range one setting 1500m (?)

Cannister: range 300m, no other info.

Re its use;

'The controversy over smooth-bore versus rifled artillery was conclusively resolved by the end of the war (as was the controversy over muzzle-loading versus breech-loading rifles). Hahn's insistence on retaining the 12pdrs. due to their vaunted superiority with cannister proved entirely spurious, they fired a negligible 91 cannister rounds throughout the entire campaign. Furthermore, despite comprising 38% of the field artillery they contrived to fire only 13% of the ordnance. Being muzzle loading they could also fire air-burst schrapnel (462 rounds) unlike the C61 which could in theory fire schrapnel but had to use a percussion fuse.'

Delighted to be corrected/augmented, like I said, good info on this gun is hard to come by.

Many thanks for all this informations, guys !