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"Serbia & the Former Yugoslavia" Topic


22 Posts

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Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP16 Dec 2022 10:56 a.m. PST

More trouble in a region that the UN is supposed to have some control over ?

link

Kevin C Supporting Member of TMP18 Dec 2022 9:10 a.m. PST

I understand their desire to move back into this region. Kosovo represents for Serbians what the Alamo represents for Texas. And before anyone starts to throw shade saying that I am siding with the bad guys, I would remind them, that the Balkans has a complicated history. Like the Middle East, it's not the best place to exercise our good intentions and put our naivety on display for the world.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP18 Dec 2022 11:46 a.m. PST

Very true, the former Yugoslavia was a mashing together of different ethnicities, religions, languages, etc. With some hatreds going back centuries. So yes, like the Mid-East or even A'stan. Tito seemed to have it under some control. But like Iraq, Saddam did manage to keep his different ethnicities, religions, tribes, etc. under control. But his methods were very draconian, etc.

Note the former Yugoslavia's "states" were part of the defunct Austro-Hungary. Until after WWII. We know the rest in histroy.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP18 Dec 2022 4:49 p.m. PST

Errata : Until after WWII. Should read WWI.

After WWI, European politicians, etc. now long dead, planned, overlooked, etc. the divisions of the Austro-Hungarian & Ottoman Turk empires. Seems they didn't do a very good job in today's light.

Personal logo Dal Gavan Supporting Member of TMP19 Dec 2022 2:32 a.m. PST

After WWI, European politicians, etc. now long dead, planned, overlooked, etc. the divisions of the Austro-Hungarian & Ottoman Turk empires

European politicians, Legion? Woodrow Wilson's antagonism to monarchies and his idealistic Fourteen Points (particularly X and XI) were as much a factor in the creation of Yugoslavia as anything done by the "Europeans" (by that I suppose you mean the Conference of Ambassadors- France, Italy, UK and Japan). The Fourteen Points were referred to as part of the negotiations on Austria signing an armistice in mid-October 1918. However U.S. Secretary of State Robert Lansing rejected the proposal to only give the southern Slavic areas of Austria-Hungary autonomy and insisted they be allowed to form independent states, which merged with the existing Kingdom of Serbia.

And didn't the end result, the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, turn out so well? So please don't try to blame the "Europeans" for Yugoslavia. The US was stirring that boiling pot as much as anyone else.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP19 Dec 2022 11:17 a.m. PST

Wilson, Lansing were a few voices who were not from Europe. Many of the old European Powers didn't include the USA as a world power until after WWI. I'm not saying the USA is not without some "guilt". As we know hindsight is 20/20.

However, the Big Winners in WWI, were, yes, France, Italy, the UK and maybe even Japan albeit Japan is not a "European" power. However, you may be right … much finger pointing to go around.

Personal logo Dal Gavan Supporting Member of TMP19 Dec 2022 2:51 p.m. PST

Wilson, Lansing were a few voices who were not from Europe. Many of the old European Powers didn't include the USA as a world power until after WWI.

Nobody saw the US as a world power until after WWI- except the US. And the US' voice was as loud as any in post-WWI Europe- in some cases louder, due to the debts the Entente had racked up from 1914 to 1919 and the leverage they gave the US in conferences with the other powers.

much finger pointing to go around.

Too true. Some seem to forget that.

However, the Big Winners in WWI, were, yes, France, Italy, the UK and maybe even Japan

I disagree. The losses and destruction France and Belgium suffered more than made up for any German colonies- themselves burdens- they may have picked up. The crippling debts accumulated by the all Entente powers and the concomitant loss of political clout meant the Entente powers "won" SFA from WWI. In truth the US was the "big winner" in WWI- financially, territorially (eg German Samoa) and politically.

QUATERMASS19 Dec 2022 5:26 p.m. PST

Thanks for the link legion.
I'd love to get into this with you as I respect your insight, but at the risk of having my posts being snipped I'll refrain.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP19 Dec 2022 9:25 p.m. PST

the leverage they gave the US in conferences with the other powers.
Probably true enough …

The losses and destruction France and Belgium suffered more than made up for any German colonies-
If you look at that way … yes. Regardless the Treaty of Versailles, was as much about payback as anything else. And started to set the table for WWII in many ways. I don't think Wilson was so intent as the others with the strictness of the Treaty. However, with the destruction and loss in France, Belgium, Italy, the UK and it's colonies, etc. I can see their want for revenge.

In truth the US was the "big winner" in WWI- financially, territorially (eg German Samoa) and politically.
One could see it that way. For better or worse …

However, in retrospect, again the divisions of both the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Turks Empires. Which created Iraq, with a large imbalance of Shia vs. Sunni. Plus, again creation of what eventually became Yugoslavia. In both cases another table was set for future conflicts. And yes, Wilson may have something to do with these divisions. But seems to me at least in Iraq it was a European show. But again, hindsight is 20/20. No one can really see the future …

but at the risk of having my posts being snipped I'll refrain.
Discretion is the better part of valor … 😎

Personal logo Dal Gavan Supporting Member of TMP20 Dec 2022 3:44 a.m. PST

Probably true enough …; If you look at that way…; One could see it that way.

I see. Not surprised.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP20 Dec 2022 10:06 a.m. PST

Frankly with all the loss of life, etc., of all the nations involved in WWI. Albeit the USA took some of the lower losses, compared to France, the UK, etc. Hard to say who or if there was a "winner" per se.

And again, what occurred after the end of WWI, most done by the Allies and even the USA. Set the board for the future, e.g. WWII. However, there is nothing that anyone could have done to assuage the massive losses to France, Belgium, the UK, etc. The Treaty of Versailles was born from the massive losses. Then of course the losses of WWII dwarfed those of WWI. But again, many finger pointing in many directions. And yes, the USA could have done some things differently … But many could have done that in retrospect …

Let there be no doubt … I totally respect all the troops from all the nations the USA fought alongside. Living and dead in all the conflicts around the world. Regardless of what decisions our leadership made or makes …

Personal logo Dal Gavan Supporting Member of TMP20 Dec 2022 1:21 p.m. PST

Hard to say who or if there was a "winner" per se.

I agree, but it was not so clear in 1919. Nobody saw Round 2 coming up in 20 years, nor how quickly nationalist/religious rivalries would be exacerbated by arbitrary border decisions.

My point is that none of the immediate post-WWI great powers can be held to blame, or is blameless, for the world they were tried to create at Versailles. Self interest, revenge, na´ve ideology- and a universal arrogant belief that only they among the great powers could see the best path to a permanent peace- were the common denominators.

It's pretty much the same as the geopolitical landscape of today, really. I wonder how they'll view our governments' decisions in 2123?

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP20 Dec 2022 5:31 p.m. PST

or the world they were tried to create at Versailles. Self interest, revenge, na´ve ideology- and a universal arrogant belief that only they among the great powers could see the best path to a permanent peace
And as is said, the rest is history. With some decisions made over 100 years ago, or longer still having some reverberations today.

I wonder how they'll view our governments' decisions in 2123?
We'll have to see how the Ukraine turns out, and Putin does not start WWIII/nuclear exchange.

Personal logo Dal Gavan Supporting Member of TMP21 Dec 2022 3:51 p.m. PST

We'll have to see how the Ukraine turns out, and Putin does not start WWIII/nuclear exchange.

Or an extremely nasty virus escapes a bowl of bat soup in Wuhan.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP22 Dec 2022 7:04 p.m. PST

Indeed …

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP23 Dec 2022 10:59 p.m. PST

FWIW, I came down with the PRC/CCP "bat soup" virus, a few days back. Getting over it, but it really sucks !!!! 🤮🤧🤬

QUATERMASS24 Dec 2022 5:17 a.m. PST

Sorry to hear that mate!
Get well soon.

All my life from a small child I've had problems getting to sleep,when I was a teenager I could only really sleep evry 2nd day! The only way I could get some sleep was to be totally exhausted!

Around this time last year I got covid which was awful but it left me with the ability to sleep whenever I like!

So long covid has done me solid,go figure!

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP24 Dec 2022 7:24 a.m. PST

Thank you ! Yes, I sleep a lot now. I get tired easily. At least you got a positive outcome in the end!

Personal logo Dal Gavan Supporting Member of TMP24 Dec 2022 5:26 p.m. PST

I hope you feel better soon, mate. On the plus side, it's a good excuse for not talking to anyone you want to ignore, today.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP25 Dec 2022 2:04 p.m. PST

Thank you ! 👍👍 And yes I'm on lock down !

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP26 Dec 2022 10:13 p.m. PST

Serbia Puts Its Arm Forces On High Alert Over Rising Tensions With Kosovo


YouTube link

link

Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP28 Dec 2022 1:12 p.m. PST

IIRC the UN still has a number of forces there ? NATO still has some. The Serbs may be taking advantage of much of NATO "involved" in the Ukraine ? Of course, I don't know the breakdown of UN forces in the Kosovo area. Many NATO members are also UN members …

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