"German Coups averted...." Topic

Picked up by numerous News sources as well as the AP:
link

Hmmm…but Antifa is still free to talk about doing the same thing???

I live in California. I haven't seen a public comment in the news by Antifa in over 2 years. Meanwhile the Radical Right continues in this same fashion.

What's good for the goose is not good for the gander.

Just saw it on FOX … And yes, Antifa here seems to get away with their anarchy. Guns sales are up in the US too. It's not to overthrow the Gov't. But the average person to protect themselves from the lawless lunatic fringe.

QAnon was specifically cited as the ideological rationale, apparently.

Right wing extremist and conspiratorial activities have been as issue in Germany, including factions within the police, as I recall.

Freedom of speech is a different matter. I do not know the specifics of what you refer to except in general terms. Antifa is not organized as a militia, not centrally led. As an anti- fascist group, it operates as a sporadic response framework to what proponents believe are facist threats.

QAnon has operated on Social media and through various networks for several years with claims of "Deep State" control of government, and other allegations.

The line between free speech and seizing a government building is not as clear as it once was for many folks, IMO.

I live in California. I haven't seen a public comment in the news by Antifa in over 2 years.

Antifa recently attacked a group of lesbians protesting for women prisoners' rights in Oakland -- a group of thugs egged them, shoved them to the ground, stole their banner. That's called assault, yes? I expect no action by the local DA and not surprised you haven't heard about it in the media.

Where do you guys get this nonsense,… oh neverminded. At least the German are on the right track.

Just read about CA attack, saw the video. Pies! Can you imagine the Oathkeepers armed with pies? How about those guys in the Michigan state capital. Armed with … pies? 6Jan? What do pies tell you about intent? An umbrella vs a small group of demonstrators. Snowflakes on a rampage?

No real injuries, it seems, banner stolen. Technically assault? Breach of peace for sure, but Antifa do not rises to the level of domestic terrorism very often. 2020 comes to mind. They are a pain, and sometimes a danger, but not compared to … best not get into it. Stats for fatalities at political demonstrations over 20 years in the US pretty much sum up the issue. But that makes no difference to some in the new mainstream media and well meaning folks are affected.

"Antifa recently attacked a group of lesbians"

And that equates to a Right Wing Coups how?

What about, what about, what about…

Has this become the only counter argument available?

"What about…"

It's an understandable question in the face of the bald-face hypocrisy on this thread.

From the article -- the actual crimes, nature of the "threat" and seriousness of the issue are all vague and ill-defined.

German police seized dozens of people including a self-styled prince, a retired paratrooper and a former judge on Wednesday, accusing the suspects of discussing the violent overthrow of the government but leaving unclear how concrete the plans were.

A German official and a lawmaker said that investigators may have detected real plotting, drunken fantasizing, or both. Regardless, Germany takes any right-wing threat seriously and thousands of police officers carried out pre-dawn raids across much of the country.

Dozens???

So they just scooped up a bunch of people critical of the regime who may been spouting nonsense or threats, real or not-real. Pre-dawn raids on "dozens" of people, from the article, that the authorities say they have "doubts about whether these people were even clever enough to plan and carry out such a coup."

So…"dozens" of people spouting nonsense, no indication of direct actions or attacks, but who were critical of the regime and who "Prosecutors said the suspects also believe Germany is ruled by a so-called "deep state."

What "deep state??" Couldn't be the one that monitors social media and then launches pre-dawn armed raids by 3,000 police officers against a handful of critics and cranks, eh?

Really -- that's your coup threat? How much is true? I dunno. Were they really a threat led by an old dude calling himself a prince from his small flat? Dunno. Did they have serious plans? I dunno, and from the article neither do the authorities.

What I do know is that the far Left is not treated the same. Not the Antifa assault on gay women in Oakland, nor as Antifa, for example, ramps up violence and threats of violence in Europe, according to the EU Parliament.

And I also know that Germany faces a cold, harsh winter courtesy of the poor decisions of the ruling party. What better way to distract with a THREAT and ACTION! Look, we just saved you from an evil right wing threat led by a septuagenarian self-style prince from his flat! So forget about the chance of freezing to death while food and energy costs spiral out of sight!!

Not sure how fascists came up since the coup-plotters don't appear to be from a neo-Nazi milieu – at least some are obviously monarchists. The overall movement seems to have a bit of history of fantasists who set themselves up as being the legitimate of government not recognising the current German state, which they believe is illegitimate.
Easy to see how such people would then wallow in other internet fantasies and denialisms of the contemporary world. Fairly certain their plan had it gone into effect would have failed though it looks likely they would have killed plenty of innocent people trying.

A) I think there is more to this and it may be much more political in nature. We won't, or may never know. Sort of like the pipeline explosion and the leaked Supreme Court Roe decision, for which no one has been arrested.

B) 3000 personnel involved and they arrested 25 people? Not much chance of a successful coup with those numbers. 😉 if you read all the articles out there, this is actually on the funny side. "Install a Prince", Russia involved or an attempt to get them involved? Wow, they really must have wanted to fail for sure! 🤣

"BERLIN, Dec 7 (Reuters) – Germany on Wednesday detained 25 members and supporters of a far-right group that the prosecutor's office said was preparing a violent overthrow of the state to install as national leader a prince who had sought backing from Russia."

I think we have more to fear trying to ride the subway in New York, or walking the streets of Chicago any weekend.

And this was a slow weekend there:

"Chicago shootings: 17 shot, 4 fatally, in weekend gun violence across city, CPD says
Chicago police said man, woman injured in shooting inside Chatham Chinese food restaurant
Sun-Times Media Wire
Monday, December 5, 2022 9:49AM"

I think we can agree that Coups are generally bad regardless of whom is responsible for them.

I'm glad no government officials, police or military were killed in this one.

" 'Antifa recently attacked a group of lesbians'

And that equates to a Right Wing Coups how?"

Surely you can see how a couple of chaps throwing cakes & eggs at their opponents is the equivalence of right-wing conspirators engaged in planning an armed insurrection to attack a democratically elected government?

Clearly such a comparison smacks at desperation.

Antifa did a lot of damage in the summer of 2020. But they were not the only ones. I guest one can consider them far right ? But I just see them as anarchists … anti-gov't, anti-LEO, anti-military, etc. I remember the footage of the 2020 riots Antifa was involved in. They are lucky they didn't run into some who could really defend themselves. Like some RANGERs, SF, SEALS, USMC, etc. on leave. I'd hope Antifa has good dental and medical insurance ! 😆

They say they are anti-fascist so how is that far right ? I'd think we all are anti-fascists. But they see, as I said, the gov't, LEO, military, etc. are fascists.

Far Right as I see it is white supremacists, KKK, Neo-Nazis, etc. I don't think that Antifa agrees with much any of those radical organizations' dogmas, etc. ? Or did I miss something ?

I heard on the news, they wanted to put a new "Kaiser" in charge(WDF?) of Germany. Far Right I'd guess … But in the Western World today I don't think you'd be able to stage a successful "coup". For a number of reasons. You are going to have to go to Africa, the Mid East, etc. for that.

One reporter just said today to be anti-fascist you have to be a fascist ! Like Antifa !

Fortunately, we live in a time when every last morsel of news reported by our global mass media can safely be considered the pure, absolute, unadulterated "truth".

"Antifa" = "Antifaschiste Aktion" = the Communist street thug intimidation organization of the German Weimar period, much like the NSDAP's SA.

If you have doubts, compare the flags of the the current organization here in the USA versus that of the German Weimar period organization. Their tactics are as similar as their flags.

I wonder if the Federal Courthouse in Portland has been repaired yet.

B

Here is my take. As I understand it, Antifa is a left wing group, or loose network. Blutarski is correct about the flag, but today's Antifa connects with various ideologies rather than just communism. Antifa has participated in at least 2-3 violent confrontations with right wing groups in recent years, in which Antifa members were also injured.

Most federal, state and local law enforcement attribute the bulk of violent damage and illegal activity in 2020 to criminal individuals acting on opportunities created by the large protests. But Antifa and right wing extremists also took advantage of this situation, especially in Portland.

Antifa is often used as a rationale for deflecting criticism of right wing extremist activity, which has been much more violent during the past 20 0r so years, based on stats. The use of whataboutism distracts some folks from believing contrary data or points of view. Both sides do it.

This does not excuse the disruptive, threatening, occasionally violent Antifa activity. But IMO Antifa should not be seen as an equivalent to right wing extremists, based on the data, and the lack of a common ideaology, lack of cohesiveness for Antifa. Literally, they are not generally capable of pulling together in a large group.

The use of pies as weapons is definitely a clue of some sort.

I don't think they were targeted as lesbians. Something to do with a trans convicted murderer going into a womens prison I think, but I don't get why they did it. Or the pie thing.

"Surely you can see how a couple of chaps throwing cakes & eggs "

Eggs are expensive these days! Why, that's almost like throwing away money… ;-)

"Surely you can see how a couple of chaps throwing cakes & eggs "

Yeah, let's make light of a buncha white dudes in Antifa black-shirts assaulting women protesting for women's rights by knocking them down, pelting them and the stealing their protest banner. I guess the women got off light considering how much damage, chaos and injuries they caused during the massive riots in 2020, and at least one outright assassination of a Trump supporter.

See, if you make light of political violence because they are on "your team," at some point the "other team" will engage and things escalate rather quickly. Political violence and intimidation should not be tolerated by anyone if you want your civil society to continue. Hmmm?? What say you?

"Antifa is not organized as a militia, not centrally led. As an anti- fascist group, it operates as a sporadic response framework to what proponents believe are facist threats."

Antifa is very well organized and well-armed. See the Redneck Militia/Redneck Revolt which was preceded by the John Brown Gun Club. They are decentralized because some of their allies, ALF and ELF, were infiltrated and broken up by the FBI in the 90s. There are Antifa cells all over the country. The modern group started in the Pacific Northwest but now has cells across the country including three that I know of within a 45 minute drive of where I work in Virginia.

They are well equipped, well funded, and motivated to destroy liberal democracies. They are a serious threat.

Tort, can you send some links to sites that back up the claim that right wing groups have done more damage than left wing groups in the last 20 years? I'd like to follow up on that because my sources tell a different story.

Political violence and intimidation should not be tolerated by anyone if you want your civil society to continue.

Finally somebody said it.

A coup d'état?

Ahhh…no, not really.

A collection of right-wing radicals, conspiracy theorists, failed existences from the military, police and judiciary (A judge and member of the parliament for the AfD) and some other fringe clowns under the leadership of a washed-up antisemitic aristocrat have concretized their failed folly fantasies in plans and begun practical preparations.
But without the Weimar Republic, no Kapp Putsch, sorry.
The morons allegedly even approached the Russians about the matter.
As far as it is known, even them didn't take them serious.
And that means something, since their standard modus operandi is it to use such groups to cause discord.

In Germany so far, 25 arrests, 54 suspected cases, and probably some more to follow.
Halfway viable organized and with physical access to the Bundestag (house of parliament) via that possible high traitor judge/MoP from the AfD.
A bit like a Wehrsportgruppe Hoffmann 2.0, a German right wing terrorist group in the 1970's, but well funded.
It will be interesting to see where the money came from.
Probably some in the German right wing party AfD are getting nervous right now.
I wouldn't be too surprised, when they will be placed under surveillance of the State Security in the near future, as a whole.

Lunatics of course, but would you want to have armed anti-democratic lunatics in the Capitol, shooting members of the parliament…

Oh, and yes, about 3,000 police officers, investigators and task forces.
Those nutcases were armed and potentially ready to use violence.
It's a bit like putting dozens of bullets from police weapons in the body of an unarmed man.
You can never be too careful, can't you?

And I am quite satisfied that this operation was handled that well and without bloodshed.

Any objections to this approach?

@ sbminiguy

You seem to be in a state of high dudgeon. Is this because I called you out on your false equivalency?
Let's claim a person throwing a piece of litter on the street has committed an act as heinous as a multi-national polluting wide swathes of the planet? Ridiculous.

"My team"? You would know what "my team" is? If I had something as puerile as a "team" it would be SNP for your information. Your list of dubious crimes committed by this shadowy Antifa don't impress me much. Undoubtedly exaggerated, probably spurious & part of some parochial agenda is my estimate.

Political violence and intimidation should not be tolerated by anyone if you want your civil society to continue.

Well said. But I think there's a partisan few here who will disagree.

Not hard to find, DN Jackson:
link

'Antifa recently attacked a group of lesbians'

"a buncha white dudes in Antifa black-shirts assaulting women protesting for women's rights "

"Something to do with a trans convicted murderer going into a womens prison"

Fascinating! Somebody should game this

Fascinating! Somebody should game this

Judge Dredd?

Combat Zone?

Kill Zone?

Necromunda?

There are indeed an awful lot of data sources on the criminality of Antifa vs right wing extremists and they generally point in the same direction. How much you trust them depends on the narrative you follow. The FBI has spent a lot of time on this and considers Antifa a lesser threat, I believe, but many will be following deep state beliefs and not trust them.

Dn, I am aware of the John Brown Gun Club, but I would say that well equipped is a relative term. The full military gear of the right is not an Antifa preference. And anarchists tend to be decentralized by nature. Again, I do not make light of these lawbreakers, but I think they are not as much of an overt threat as they are made out to be by the right and serve a a foil for right wing media.

Here is an article from Business Insider. link
There are numerous others.

Here is a more comprehensive history and study of Antifa from CSIS.

link

Tort, why is it "deep state" to not trust the FBI? The current FBI has proven to be less than trustworthy and one sided in their support of political parties.

I mean currently we have the exposed Hunter Biden Laptop cover up, which has been exposed via Twitter by Elon Musk and earlier Facebook admitted they too received memos about looking for a big Russian disinformation expose, just prior to the release of the Hunter Biden laptop story.

We know the FBI had the laptop, prior to the 2020 election and knew the information on it was true, and not Russian disinformation:

". Mac Isaac's father, a retired Air Force colonel, first tried to provide a copy of the laptop to an FBI office in Albuquerque, New Mexico, in summer 2019, but the bureau turned him away.
• FBI agents from Albuquerque contacted the father in October 2019, as impeachment proceedings were ongoing in Washington, to discuss the laptop and then to interview the younger Mac Isaac in Delaware. A few weeks later, FBI agents in Delaware seized the original laptop from Mac Isaac."

So they had it in 2019.

We had Twitter fire James Baker for redacting more Twitter information. The same James Baker who was the FBI general council and who was involved the since disproved Trump/Russian 2016 election collusion.

"Prior to joining Twitter, Mr Baker worked as general counsel at the FBI where he was a key figure in the bureau's investigation into alleged Russian interference in Donald Trump's 2016 presidential campaign."

This is just a microcosm of why some of us no longer feel that we can believe the FBI is a fair and impartial arbitrator of the truth.

I find it heartwarming that so many people here find the organized dismantling of civilization and human rights so inconsequential and amusing.

If things continue on this path very much longer, I'll be interested to see how many are still laughing.

B

Reichstag fire 2.0?

@ sbminiguy

You seem to be in a state of high dudgeon. Is this because I called you out on your false equivalency?
Let's claim a person throwing a piece of litter on the street has committed an act as heinous as a multi-national polluting wide swathes of the planet? Ridiculous

This is not false equivalency.

Assault is assault.

YOUR right to protest ends at the tip of my nose. You can get in my face and yell and scream, but the moment it becomes physical in any way, you've crossed the line – your right to protest certainly does not include pelting me with *anything*, knocking me down, or stealing my private property.

"ASSAULT, crim. law. An assault is any unlawful attempt or offer with force or violence to do a corporal hurt to another, whether from malice or wantonness"

That means if you try to punch me, and I duck and you miss -- you initiated ASSAULT. You throw a rock and me and miss -- still assault.

If you HIT me with that rock, then it's ASSAULT & BATTERY.

"BATTERY: Battery is a criminal offense involving unlawful physical contact, distinct from assault which is the act of creating apprehension of such contact."

Then they stole the sign from the group of lesbian protesters -- which is THEFT.

"THEFT: A criminal act in which property belonging to another is taken without that person's consent."

Oh, and they planned it and in concert as a group to conduct their Assault, Battery and Theft which is called CONSPIRACY in the legal world.

"CONSPIRACY: An agreement between two or more persons to engage jointly in an unlawful or criminal act, or an act that is innocent in itself but becomes unlawful when done by the combination of actors."

So what the Antifa punks did is legally considered ASSAULT & BATTERY, THEFT and CONSPIRACY.

I find it heartwarming that so many people here find the organized dismantling of civilization and human rights so inconsequential and amusing.

If things continue on this path very much longer, I'll be interested to see how many are still laughing.

I know, right?? Joint adherence to the law and controlling ourselves by moral restraint is the only thing keeping society together. That's why things are too strained -- people in positions of power are applying the law unequally.

If a group of right wingers conspired to commit assault, battery and theft on a group of lesbian protesters, it would be international news and there'd be hell to pay. Some Antifa do it, nah, no biggie??

Let's put it this way. We all play various wargames and RPGs here. The games only function because we, the players, accede to the authority of the game rules and the GM. It is this joint belief in and support for the rules that allows the game to function. The group can self-police bad behavior through social pressure (the guy who uses his tape measure to push his units into range to shoot you, or who rolls his dice and picks them up quickly announcing his awesome rolls, etc.). The group polices rule-questioning behavior by the appeal to the joint, shared belief in the authority of the rules.

If one or more players just decide to play by their own rules, like a player just decides his troops "wouldn't break" and ignores a morale test…or that he just starts moving his troops double distances, etc. The game breaks down. People stop playing. They go off and form their own game with their own rules.

1. The "game rules" of society are its laws

2. The "GM" in a western society should be your Constitution and Courts who apply just law, fairly and equally

3. When the game starts to break down because of unlawful behavior that's called Civil Unrest.

4. When enough players are fed up to go their own way and start their own game, that's called Civil War.

Am I clear now on my position??

You wrote a lot. The logic is flawed, your case strains to provide support for a clear agenda & you're wrong. Simple.
BTW one question mark is sufficient. The juxtaposition of two doesn't make a laboured argument any stronger.

If Antifa was an actual thing, as oppose to college kids who get in the face of racist, then people like Limbaugh would not have died from cancer or addiction.

@ochoan, cool, so when you or a family member get assaulted, knocked down and their stuff stolen we'll just say, "Well, but it was just a little shove that sent them tumbling to the ground, and they only stole something little, so no big deal, eh?"

All the political references to our Native problems are valid points for discussion, but it seems a bit sad that the original post on a decidedly different--even comical--matter elsewhere should provoke these paralell posts.

Otherwise, I'd simply have said this who business in Germany was taking on far more the trappings of a "Putsch" than a "Coup."

TVAG

35th, I was only saying that if you believe in a deep state then you may not trust the FBI.

In my career working for the government, we protected citizens and stayed away from ignorant political appointees who were clueless. The core group got the job done. No deep state that I ever saw. Political agenda peddlers came and went with elections. In such large organizations like the FBI, NYPD (or any other big city), there will always be some bad apples. But some people there have given their lives to keep us safe also.

As for the incident with pies and eggs, nobody is saying this is right. But Pies do not convey intent to cause injury the way semi-automatic weapons do. Antifa is not right, but also does not look like the left wing equivalent of right wing extremists.

SBI, it's challenging to make law enforcement so cut and dried. Do you want to see the guy doing 48 in a 45mph zone arrested or the guy doing 80? Both? In this pie case, I am still not sure exactly what happened without all the evidence, but there were crimes committed.

"If Antifa was an actual thing, as oppose to college kids who get in the face of racist, then people like Limbaugh would not have died from cancer or addiction."

Wow! to this, I can only respond with this quote from "Billy Madison":

"<insert name>, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

As for the incident with pies and eggs, nobody is saying this is right. But Pies do not convey intent to cause injury the way semi-automatic weapons do. Antifa is not right, but also does not look like the left wing equivalent of right wing extremists.

SBI, it's challenging to make law enforcement so cut and dried. Do you want to see the guy doing 48 in a 45mph zone arrested or the guy doing 80? Both? In this pie case, I am still not sure exactly what happened without all the evidence, but there were crimes committed.

It's not all that hard -- you can't compare a few miles over the limit with assault. I don't care if it's "right" or "left," and in the case of the OT – if these people were dangerous, fine, arrest them. But it seems a lot more like a political stunt to divert attention from regime failures when you send 3000 people out to arrest 25 people on a range of nebulous charges the article's own sources can't verify.

In the "pie case," a group of lesbian and feminist activists were protesting a California policy placing trans persons (biological males) into women's prisons, which had already led to multiple rapes. Evidently the Antifa punks decided that "trans" beat "lesbian" on the totem pole of oppression and organized an assault on the protesters. The video during, and testimony after, shows that they pelted the women with eggs and pies, then manhandled and shoved several to the ground, stole their protest banner and ran off accompanied by the usual screams if "F-**" and so on.

There's no "hierarchy" of Assault or "less serious" Assault -- Assault is Assault. It crosses into Aggravated Assault if a deadly or harm-causing weapon is used -- like a rock, or a frozen hard-boiled egg (which is a rock), or a "cement milkshake" (which is also a rock) used by Antifa on opponents, or a frozen bottle of water (which is a rock) thrown by Antifa at police and others.

Clever boots, eh? They figure they'll be able to bash your face in and break a few bits and bones and then by the time the investigation happens all the cops can find are bottles of thawed water…or a broken egg. Nice, eh?

Battery is Battery. Theft is Theft. And that's true whether it's "right" or "left" doing it. And you have to hold to that or else the chance for civil discourse and remedy through the system breaks down and you just have blood in the streets. History and Human Nature bear witness to this reality.

sdminiguy – I'm assuming you weren't in your university's debating team? If your argument is correct – & it self-evidently isn't- you could make a stronger case by dropping the exaggeration fallacy element & referring to the dichotomy between Natural rights & Legal rights.
As I'm sure you know, Natural rights are those that are not dependent on the laws or customs of any particular culture or government, and so are universal, fundamental and inalienable (they cannot be repealed by human laws, though one can forfeit their enjoyment through one's actions, such as by violating someone else's rights). Natural law is the law of natural rights.
Legal rights are those bestowed onto a person by a given legal system (they can be modified, repealed, and restrained by human laws). The concept of positive law is related to the concept of legal rights.

Your "argument" could be that those diabolical egg-throwers whilst only tramping on the margins of legal law, transgress natural law.

You may want to bone up on this, in which case I recommend you consult Cicero & Thomas Aquinas.

It's been a pleasure "debating" with you. Feel free to have the last word as important things are calling for my attention.

It's been a pleasure "debating" with you. Feel free to have the last word as important things are calling for my attention.

Ahh…resorting to personal insults now, are we? Wonderful debating tactic. Sure, last word, why not. From my position you seem to feel law is a flexible thing based on your personal likes and dislikes. I mean, you continue to make light of assault and battery on some women by Antifa punks, because, what – Antifa ranks higher in your political/moral ranking than the women who were attacked? OK, so then law is situational. If law is situational, there is no law. If there is no law, there is no civil society -- and only nature's law applies since natural law can only be exercised freely as supported by civil law.

You may want to consider the broken window effect as applied to this situation.

And with that I'll give you a Good Day Sir.

Political violence and intimidation should not be tolerated by anyone if you want your civil society to continue.

Bingo !

"If Antifa was an actual thing, as oppose to college kids who get in the face of racist, then people like Limbaugh would not have died from cancer or addiction."

Wow! to this, I can only respond with this quote from "Billy Madison":

"<insert name>, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

Bingo ! Bingo !

I clearly remember watching the riots in the news, showing completely black clad individuals from head to toe. With matching backpacks. And carrying other objects like hammers, bricks, rocks, etc. attacking those carrying US Flags, destroying property, starting fires, assaulting LEOs, etc., etc. And they were clearly ID'd as Antifa thugs.

Now let there be no doubt in many cases BLM members, criminals, mad mobs etc. were also doing similar. Not just Antifa … There were very few peaceful protests in the Summer of 2020.

I think Antifa clearly are anarchists who committed criminal acts, etc. and should be labeled as domestic terrorists. I hear there are a lot of open cells in Gitmo. And the weather is very nice this time of year …

'Antifa recently attacked a group of lesbians'

"a buncha white dudes in Antifa black-shirts assaulting women protesting for women's rights "

"Something to do with a trans convicted murderer going into a womens prison"

Who won ? My $ is not the lesbians. They like many women can be a mean lot ! 😁

SB, I did say crimes were committed and I did not say this was not an assault case. I said that pies do not convey intent in the same way a firearm does. That is my point.

If we want to make this a formal case we need statements, videos, etc. thats what I meant by needing all the evidence. I also said it was not right. Nobody should be subjected to this.

I said that pies do not convey intent in the same way a firearm does. That is my point

Yep, that's why this would be Assault, and not Agravated Assault.