"Stug 3s 12th SS Normandy" Topic

I am trying to find out where the Stug 3s fit in within the 12th SS Panzer divisions organisational chart

The only one source I can find states that the 7th and 8th company of the Panzer 4 battalion had them instead of Mk4s .

Is this correct?

Can't confirm that instance, mysteron, but it was something the Germans were doing in 1944.

Okay buddy .Thanks

What date/time frame are you focusing upon?

I have Hubert Meyer's history of 12SS Hitlerjugend Division and the divisional equipment return report for 1 June 1944, which is reproduced in the book, indicated no StuGs in the division.

Jentz's "Panzer Truppen" (Vol 2) shows no StuGs reported on hand as of 10 Jun 44 and no StuG losses reported for the period 6 Jun – 8 Jul 44.

Jentz also shows no StUGs as part of the 12SS HJ post-Normandy rebuild

Jentz (again) shows returns for 12SS HJ dated 15 Mar 1945 as -
23(10) PzIV/lg
30(10) PzIV/70
24(9) PzV
No StuGs were listed for HJ, although listed for numerous other armored formations.
Number in parentheses = operational status.

FWIW. Hope this helps

B

July 1944 ish :)

It was 9th SS who used Stugs in 7 & 8//SS Pz Rgt 9 in Normandy

They got JgPz IVs in July 1944 – perhaps someone called them "Stugs", but the were really Jagdpanzers, AKA "Guderion's Ducks".

L48 versions initially.

Later, just before the Battle of the Bulge, they got the long-barreled L70 models – can't recall the dates, but think it was sometime between Sept. – Nov., IIRC, during the divisional refit.

IIRC, they got about a company or so of the Jagdpanzers in July (early to mid-July I think), and another company a little later (August?). That's off the top of my head, so dates could be a little off.

10 delivered on 7/6/44 to 1st. Ko., and 11 delivered on 7/30/44 to 2nd Ko., if this posting is correct:

link

The April dates quoted are pure fiction, since 12th SS had no Jagdpanzers in June.

I have got 2 pictures of 12th SS Stugs :) . I am guessing they got them as replacements for Mk4s . Thats how I will use them as I have already ordered some .

@Thresher . Yes the Lehr also used those as I have a large Lehr collection in 20mm .

Thanks guys

I have got 2 pictures of 12th SS Stugs :) . I am guessing they got them as replacements for Mk4s . Thats how I will use them as I have already ordered some .

Then you guessed wrong. 12th SS NEVER used the Stug as a tank replacement in Normandy.

I have got 2 pictures of 12th SS Stugs :)

Are they definitely from Normandy, rather than Hungary?

12th SS do not show any Stug on the strength returns 1944-45 and Nevenkin's 'Fire Brigades' (pg 14) notes that a proposed SS Stug Abt 12 existed on paper only and was 'disbanded' in Dec 1943.

@ whirlwind .The book one of the pictures is in is titled The Waffen SS in Normandy ,The Caen Sector .Page 64 .

@Mkenny – I could use them as a what if :)

The other option to justify using them is to form a Battlegroup from elements of the 1St SS Panzer Corps. Surely at least one of the constituent Divisions must have used them ? After all we are talking about one of the most common vehicles encountered here and not a Tiger2 :)

Then of course you get one of the up and coming modern authors Niels Henkemans who did for WW2TV a video on "German Armoured units on DD " only last year April 2021 . In it he used an official German organisational chart of the 12th SS showing 2 companies of Stugs in the Panzer4 Battalion .So I am confused on this issue .

YouTube link

Neils clearly states the first chart (1:26:22) he used is 'theoretical' and the second one he uses (1:33:15) is an actual unit tabulation.

The other option to justify using them is to form a Battlegroup from elements of the 1St SS Panzer Corps. Surely at least one of the constituent Divisions must have used them ? After all we are talking about one of the most common vehicles encountered here and not a Tiger2 :)

According to Zetterling, all the other SS Panzer units had them: 1 SS Pz and 2 SS Pz had them in their anti-tank battalions, 9 and 10 SS Pz had two companies each to replace to companies in their tank battalions, 17 SS had a battalion.

Okay Thanks guys

@ whirlwind .The book one of the pictures is in is titled The Waffen SS in Normandy ,The Caen Sector .Page 64 .

Thanks mysteron, when I can get hold of a copy I will be interested in having a look at that

I guess 9th SS it is then lol

I need to buy some more books I think

@mysteron,

Just looked it up and you can get a hardback copy of Zetterling for under £10.00 GBP at the moment: link

A bargain if you are interested in the detail of which German unit had what in Normandy.

Thanks mate. Good call . I have just ordered that .

There is little old me worrying about trying to accommodate 12 Stugs I ordered accidently after a few beers lol (not recommended), when FOW produce a British Bulge set that contains 2 Archers which can only be used properly by Infantry Divisions :)

From "Normandy 1944" by Niklas Zetterling (page 61):

"Panzer divisions were not supposed to be equipped with Sturmgeschutz III, but some of the divisions in Normandy nevertheless were. In both 1 and 2 SS-Panzer-Divisionen the Panzerjaeger battalion was equipped with Sturmgeschutz III rather than tank destroyers. Each division had 45 Sturmgeschutz. The 9 and 10 SS-Panzer-Divisionen had no Panzerjaeger battalion, but two of the tank companies were equipped with Sturmgeschutz III rather than Panzer IV. The 9 SS-Panzer-Division had 40 Sturmgeschutz III and the 10 SS-Panzer-Division had 38. Also the 9 Panzer-Division had six Sturmgeschutz III while the 116 Panzer-Division had five. As could be expected the 17 SS-Panzergrenadier-Division had a battalion equipped with Sturmgeschutz III. It had 42 assault guns."

He also discusses their use by infantry divisions, three assault gun battalions and the 12 Fallschirm-Sturmgeschutz-Brigade. No mention of 12 SS Panzer having any.

Hope this helps,
Mark

9th and 10th SS fought the Canadians and Britsh alongside the 12th SS, so are good options for Normandy.

Thanks Mserafin and Thresher .

I am drawn between the 10th and the 9th at the moment with the 9th slightly edging it . The latter has a re-enactment society so ideas on there for vehicles colour schemes and uniforms etc. There is also a big detailed book available on the division for closer detail . I havnt looked too much at the 10th yet but both seem to be quite similar on the face of things.

You are welcome.

Yes, IIRC, the 9th and 10th SS' orgs were very similar, so can probably be used interchangably (not 100% sure about that, but that is the impression I've been left with, at least as far as their armor is concerned – Panthers and Panzer IVs).

Ah, looks like I was wrong – 10th SS didn't have Panthers in Normandy. Just Pz IVs.

I believe they got them a little later :)

I have gone with the 9th anyway as they worked with some Tiger2s to keep the escape route at the Falaise pocket open. That could be an interesting scenario . I am not Tiger mad like many club members I know . Its the smaller unusual stuff that interests me and there is a colour plate of a Panzer3 Observation tank .

I am tempted with the book ( the big one) Even though its in French Text. On the plus side there are zillions of pictures and it gets good reviews but very expensive .

Yes, the 9th and 10th were somewhat different in Normandy. The 10th did pick up some Panthers later on in the Northwest European campaign (which saw action during Market Garden).

Thanks Martin your input is always appreciated as you are very knowledgeable.

I have been looking at some more snippets about the 10th pertaining to Normandy from my existing collection of books

This is why the 10th is growing on me;

1) Its very much an under dog division compared to others
2) It solves my problem of the Stug useage.
3) Like the 9th it did face the Canadians
4) Plenty of coloured plates within my existing books for camo schemes
5) It used Panzer iv Gs and I have ordered previously a pack of these initially for kit bashing as I wanted some unskirted Hs ( Victrix)
6) It used Panzer 3 command tanks . It had 3 of these .

As regards the Panther situation and this kind of adds to Martin's comments .I have a couple of good books on the Panzer Lehr as I have a Lehr 20mm collection .Doing some cross referencing with my other books the Panthers all type As were transferred from the 10th to the Lehr as they were already fully committed.
Now this in interesting from another book of mine "Panzers in Normandy" by Eric Lefevre states that on August 1st, 7 Panthers were received out of 73 . Now that fits in nicely with the Victrix Panther set being 6 models and of the G type of which if new these would have been . So there is room for a modelers licence "what" if here .

I will decide soon but as the colour schemes of the 2 divisions is very similar and so work can start on my Mk4s as soon as they are delivered.

Mysterious,

Be careful about using Pz IVGs. That model went through a lot of variants, with early ones being nearly indistinguishable from Pz IVF2, while late ones look just like H models, including shurtzen panzer (from about Kursk on, I think). IIRC, the only way to tell a late G from an H is where the radio aerial is placed. So you might want to consider using Hs, although I completely understand why you might want to avoid dealing with the skirting armor.

"have been looking at some more snippets about the 10th pertaining to Normandy from my existing collection of books"

Mike Reynolds 'Sons of the Reich' is a decent summary of the antics of the later incarnation of IInd SS Panzer Corps when it was made up of 9th and 10th SS Panzer Divs.

Okay Martin Thanks for the book recommend .

Mserafin . I just want to do some kit bashing using perhaps the track sides of the new Victrix G types onto the H hull making a de Skirted H. I dont know if that will work yet as I havnt seen the G in the flesh yet . Another option would be to build the G hull in its entirety and use the H turret. Thats one of my traits in that I like to alter things.

Another option I will be looking at is making 1C or 2C Fireflys by combining kits,when the other Shermans are released .

Having just got delivery of 2 books I have decided on the 9th for my final choice of Division

The books are Normandy 1944 German Military Organisation by Niklas Zetterling as recommended by Mserafin
and
1944 German Armour in Normandy by AK Interactive . This is my type of book with lavish colour prints ,to help with painting of my vehicles .