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"Interesting article on colonisation of N America" Topic

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Darrell B D Day26 Nov 2022 12:49 p.m. PST



doc mcb26 Nov 2022 3:44 p.m. PST

What SHOULD Europeans have done with the newly discovered continents?

I mean assuming they were all saints, or woke progressives? Stay home? Forbid interaction? (But they didn't know about viruses . . .)

Korvessa26 Nov 2022 3:48 p.m. PST


doc mcb26 Nov 2022 3:48 p.m. PST

What well-meaning liberals do not seem to realize these days is that democracies thrive or fail on the basis of national stories. This is doubly so in republics like the US, where there is no apolitical figurehead to unite people in place of a monarch. In the end, stories are all we've got as a glue to cement us together as a society. If that story says that our democracy is rotten to the core, then how do we expect anyone to retain enthusiasm for democracy itself? As history shows time and again, as soon as a republic does not believe in itself and its ideals that it is better than the tyrannies and autocracies surrounding it that republic succumbs very quickly to autocracy itself. The riots that have recently erupted across the United States, the new and unaccustomed boldness that characterizes dictators around the globe, attest to the breakdown of the Western democratic order which is being accelerated by these self-inflicted wounds.

doc mcb26 Nov 2022 3:54 p.m. PST

Chesterton, ORTHODOXY, chapter 5:

The point is that when you do love a thing, its gladness is a reason for loving it, and its sadness a reason for loving it more. All optimistic thoughts about England and all pessimistic thoughts about her are alike reasons for the English patriot.

Let us suppose we are confronted with a desperate thing -- say Pimlico. If we think what is really best for Pimlico we shall find the thread of thought leads to the throne or the mystic and the arbitrary. It is not enough for a man to disapprove of Pimlico: in that case he will merely cut his throat or move to Chelsea. Nor, certainly, is it enough for a man to approve of Pimlico: for then it will remain Pimlico, which would be awful. The only way out of it seems to be for somebody to love Pimlico: to love it with a transcendental tie and without any earthly reason. If there arose a man who loved Pimlico, then Pimlico would rise into ivory towers and golden pinnacles; Pimlico would attire herself as a woman does when she is loved. For decoration is not given to hide horrible things: but to decorate things already adorable. A mother does not give her child a blue bow because he is so ugly without it. A lover does not give a girl a necklace to hide her neck. If men loved Pimlico as mothers love children, arbitrarily, because it is theirs, Pimlico in a year or two might be fairer than Florence. Some readers will say that this is a mere fantasy. I answer that this is the actual history of mankind. This, as a fact, is how cities did grow great. Go back to the darkest roots of civilization and you will find them knotted round some sacred stone or encircling some sacred well. People first paid honour to a spot and afterwards gained glory for it. Men did not love Rome because she was great. She was great because they had loved her.

doc mcb26 Nov 2022 3:56 p.m. PST

In other words we are playing for high stakes.

Grattan54 Supporting Member of TMP26 Nov 2022 7:27 p.m. PST

I get sick of the hypocrisy. The land was stolen! Well, then move back to Europe or wherever your family was from. Better yet, sell your house and land and give it to a Native American tribe. You are completely fine living on land taken in wrongdoing by your ancestors even while you condemn them.

doc mcb27 Nov 2022 2:07 a.m. PST

Grattan, yes, agreed, but the OP argues that the idea the land was "taken" rests on assumptions that are not valid.

steve dubgworth27 Nov 2022 5:16 a.m. PST

I thought not to get involved as Im english but then I thought what the hell………

can we not think of the colonists as migrants, looking to improve their economic status which was not possible in their home country. or they could be looking for asylum from real or assumed oppression or they could be simply of an adventurous spirit looking for thrills.

the poor native population was simply overwhelmed there was no grand plan to steal land it was an evolutionary process of migration which was known from ancient times and usually took a western direction from the east (huns to gaul gauls to rome……. normans to england the constant pressure from the east push migration to the west.

doc mcb27 Nov 2022 7:01 a.m. PST

Steve, yes, that is largely true. But add to that the fact that so many settlers were British, and valued land above all else.

Personal logo Parzival Supporting Member of TMP27 Nov 2022 7:52 a.m. PST

Thanks for the link, Doc. Terrific article. Confirmed some thoughts I already had, and taught me a few things I did not know.

Years ago I recall reading about people upset over vanishing "primitive cultures," and thinking "So, what you're saying is that you want those people to continue to walk around naked and barefoot so you can gaze at them as being exotic, rather than allowing them to decide that sneakers and a pair of bluejeans are a heck of a lot more comfortable and practical than twisted vines."

steve dubgworth27 Nov 2022 9:58 a.m. PST

if we include consideration of the Enclosure Act(s) where formerly commonly owned land was seized and enclosed by the Lords in England and Scotland and the common people were effectively dispossessed of land to graze their animals then we have that economic push sending people westwards this happened in the 17th and 18 centuries thus the size of individual land holdings were small (not in uk terms) and were held by land grant from the crown.

So we have farmers being pushed westwards to the new continents bringing with them their demand for land to make a living this time not commonly held land but personally owned so that nobody could enclose these free lands.

so the deep seated desire for land is not surprising.

we see the same push to australia and new zealand slightly in southern africa but not in india and the like. so we have the difference between colonialism where large numbers of people live off the land and imperialism where small numbers exploit the land via local labour (voluntary or otherwise) and are effectively in for the short run rather than making permanent lives there.

the enclosure of land itself was economic to ensure sheep could be grazed for the wool – the landscape of scotlasnd and parts of northern england were altered for sheep giving us vast treeless moors making it hard to make a living unless employed to mind the sheep.

the absorption or destruction of primitive cultures was very badly done and caused needless suffering but it was not unique to america – we english forbade the speaaking of welsh, scots and irish within our own borders mmaking everyone speak english and this was a loss of rich diversive cultures and the world is poorer for that.

Grattan54 Supporting Member of TMP27 Nov 2022 11:20 a.m. PST

Oh, I totally agree. The Black Hills changed hands a number of times. The Sioux pushed out a number of tribes when they conquered the North Plains. The Comanches came down from the Rocky Mountains and pushed the Apache's and other tribes off the Southern Plains. Mine was just a side point to what he wrote.

Bunkermeister Supporting Member of TMP27 Nov 2022 11:59 p.m. PST

Leftist Star Trek folks expected the Prime Directive. Don't touch anything, don't interact with anyone, don't even observe lest something change the natural evolution of the natives.

A starship captain will sacrifice his whole crew if need by.

That's what people expect. Anything less is the evil of Western Europeans.

They ignore constant tribal warfare, slavery, cannibalism, human sacrifice and other activities that existed here before Europeans arrived.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek

Dn Jackson Supporting Member of TMP28 Nov 2022 7:54 a.m. PST

"What well-meaning liberals do not seem to realize these days is that democracies thrive or fail on the basis of national stories."

Oh, I think they realize exactly what they are doing.

On Bunkmeister's note, Powhatan was building a small empire on the James River when the English showed up and settled Jamestown. Like happened numerous times in other parts of the world, the locals allied with the English to get rid of their own enemies.

I highly recommend read "Terror to the Wicked" for some insight on early Native-English relations in the New World.

35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP29 Nov 2022 5:25 p.m. PST

I always site the Iroquois elimination and or enslavement of the Erie tribe.

dapeters30 Nov 2022 1:22 p.m. PST

"English showed up and settled Jamestown." Essentially English conquistadors with gold in their eyes, the laugh was on them.

Personal logo Old Contemptible Supporting Member of TMP30 Nov 2022 4:00 p.m. PST

"From 1778 to 1871, the United States government entered into more than 500 treaties with the Native American tribes; all of these treaties have since been violated in some way or outright broken by the US government."



I get some of what is being said but throughout the history of this country Native Americans have been treated terribly.
There were atrocities committed by both sides. It is true that the tribes were at odds with each other. Some Native Tribes practice slavery and torture.

I am not saying give everything back or even pay reoperations, I am just saying that terrible things were done in the name of the United States and we should recognize that. Other countries were cruel to other indigenous people, so the US isn't the only country dealing with this.


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