"Dresden and Ligny" Topic

The battles of Dresden and Ligny were two of Napoleon's best-fought battles, and both occurred in the late Empire period.

And both were fought by an outnumbered French army.

Dresden was a two-day action where the French defeated an allied army commanded by Prince Schwarzenberg (who was accompanied by the three allied sovereigns).

On the first day, the allies outnumbered the French 158,000-70,000 and attacked. Their attack was defeated and driven back to their starting point and they decided to go on the defensive the next day.

On the second day, Napoleon was reinforced by Victor's and Marmont's corps along with Latour-Maubourg's cavalry corps. Napoleon attacked and defeated the allies inflicting losses over the two days of more than 38,000 for a loss of less than 10,000.

At Ligny, Napoleon attacked Blucher's Prussians with an army of 77,000. He faced 83,000 Prussians and forced them out of a strong position inflicting casualties of 34,000 which included at least 12,000 deserters. French losses were 11,500.

And he lost…

@All Sir Garnett.

Americans have always been obbsessed by body counts while ignoring results.

Those Ligny numbers are generous to the Prussians. The 10,000 men of Lobau's VI Corps did not reinforce the French army until late in the afternoon. The Prussians picked their ground and were driven off it.
Though I am persuaded by arguments from some quarters that the Royalist elements in the French officer corps caused reliability issues in some units, the French performance at Ligny was not the performance of a 'fragile' army.

It should be noted that both Dresden and Ligny were French victories…

Allen,

I completely agree with your assessment of the Armee du Nord. It was not a 'fragile' army.

I am a believer of this fragile army, the whole army did not work – reading all those accounts about the campaign nothing did fit – the staff work was abysmal, units did not start their day of marching time as it should have been, so for that reason only one divisio or brigade of Kellermann at Quatre Bras and so on. I am not disagreeing that the Armée du Nord had brave and devoted soldiers, but when the crises did arise, it collapsed, what a difference to the Prussian Army, which was as well composed of newly formed and re formed units – and was so badly defeated at Ligny, it did not collapse, it did rally and beat back and causing havoc, this is what I would regard as a steady army, some for the army Wellington did command, it did not collapse at Quatre Bras and also it stood firm when the cavalry attacked and the Guard. You will find out only in crisis how solid an army is.

As for Dresden, a very hollow victory which did not even gain the initiative in the operational art of war – this the Allies kept and forced Boney to accept battle at Leipzig.

I admit that additional to the ground braking work of Marbots Chasseurs the books by Andrew Field (here Quatre Bras and Grouchy) led me to my conclusion that the Armée du Nort was brittle indeed.

Happy to hear about you again my friend Kevin!…

Armand

Von W,

As much as I would like to take any credit for my research, I used the documents for the 7e Leger for 1814 from Mr. Dawson that he kindly let me have. Also, I just looked up the controles de troupes for a few of the regiments in the Armee du Nord, which can be found on the memoriesdeshommes website. Mr. Dawson is the one who spent countless hours on his research of the uniforms and the make-up of the army. The 1815 campaign doesn't do it for me. I am a 1806-1807 and 1809 campaign person.

Btw when everyone says the 1815 army was fragile, what does that refer to? I have not read Mr. Dawson's 1815 book yet.

Thanks,
Michael

@MarbotsChasseurs

I did read all books by Andrew Field about the French perspective, and indeed that changed my perspective a lot, it is not the desertion of a few loyal to the King officers, as well as NCOs and soldiers which made the Armée du Nord so fragile, reading those books I realized how badly it was managed from leadership – Boney – down to Corps and division commanders. As long as the army had success, those defects only appear on the second glance. I am quite surprised that the Armée du Nord did achieve what the did achieve.

Happy to hear about you again my friend Kevin!…

…Seconded.

All Sir Garnett

No, he did not lose at Dresden or Ligny. Do your research!

Dresden is a very downplayed action that the allies should have won, but did not. All credit to Napoleon and his outnumbered troops.

And if you were referring to the fact Napoleon and the French lost the 1813 and 1815 campaigns, it does not take away the great victories Napoleon and the French won. Unless you are biased, of course. LOL

Nice to see you posting again Brechtel198.

What is usually ignored in 1813 is that with the victories of Lutzen and Bautzen, the allies were driven back to the Oder. The Austrians intervention on the allied side after the armistice was decisive for the allies, giving them the necessary cannon fodder in order to giving the allies a good chance to defeat Napoleon and the Grande Armee.

Many thanks to Stoppage, Armand, and Gazzola for your kind remarks and regards.