"Weather Conditions in AoS Gaming" Topic

Question – How many AoS gamers care about weather and changes in weather in their rule sets and scenarios?

B

Is weather wind direction? If not, probably a 1 on a 1-10 scale. It might make an interesting scenario to let the players know that a storm is blowing in and it will be on the board in 5 or 6 turns. Players would need to act decisively if they want to accomplish anything before foul weather may upset their plans.

The problem is this: How many demons do you think care about a rain storm? Or undead for that matter? Or a sandstorm? Or blizzard? I suspect weather would tend to favor some armies a little too much, skewing any balance in favor of the ones completely unaffected by it. Nighthaunt armies, being incorporeal, would be completely immune…except possibly the new crossbowman as crossbows don't work well in heavy wind I imagine. Complete darkness (as in caves etc.) wouldn't affect them at all. Just a few examples.

I think the OP is asking about historical Age of Sail gaming as opposed to Fantasy gaming with a weather element.

I suspect weather (in particular the wind direction and strength) changes too often in many games. I don't know how often a veering wind, or a rain squall, affected an actual AoS battle.

Depends on the scenario. Most of the time weather changes, other than direction of the wind don't matter that much.

I'd also say changes in weather and sea state are not an issue in earlier or later either unless it's part of a scenario.

Personally I like there to be the possibility of a significant weather change, even if it is a small one. When it does happen the effects on the game can be significant.

Post Captain has a nice system for randomly generating weather at the beginning of a scenario, in wind direction and intensity and sea effects. And if your scenario setting permits, a series of bad (or good?) die rolls could even see squalls set in, which players will need to react to quickly. I've never personally played a game in a squall but it's nice to know it could happen.

For my taste, weather changes should be tailored to the scenario, not completely random, and not completely unexpected. Sailors of the AoS (or any other period) would have a good knowledge of the typical weather patterns and would also be watching their barometers for approaching lows.

Agree it depends on the scenario. At Quiberon Bay it was significant. At the Saints the affect of a windward island and light breezes was also significant.

But I will admit it is rare and shouldn't be common in pickup games.

I understand winds tend to change more in early morning and evening. For much of the rest of the day, changes would be minimal.

Grelber

As a sailor and AoS gamer having wind and weather changes is a mandatory feature. Having said that changes should not be dramatic, but a minor change can have a dramatic effect.

For example, minor wind shifts are a constant presence in coastal areas, so having a system that allows for wind gusts and shifts is necessary. This could be as little as a 10-15 degree change, but that could have a big effect on which ship or fleet has the weather gage (advantage) or require alteration in course.

Anyone who has raced sailboats will know what I mean, and the effect of minor shifts can be more significant for square rigged vessels.

Whoops. Should have read the board it was posted to. My mistake. :)

This question got more responses than I anticipated. Interesting.

By "Weather", I mean –
> wind direction
> wind strength
> sea state
> weather (barometric) trend
> changes in any of the above during the game

The reason I'm interested in this is because "in the real world" such changes, even of the slightest nature, could have a big influence upon a battle.

Rodney's victory at the Saintes was entirely the result of a single two point change in the wind direction that at one and the same time put DeGrasse's line into irons and immobilized and enabled the British to turn up and break into the French line. Without that minor change in wind direction the Saintes would have been merely an inconclusive passing engagement.

At the Battle of Sadras, after three hours of fighting in light and baffling winds, a sudden four point shift in wind direction enabled Adm Hughes squadron to break off action against Suffren's superior force.

Reading the old battle accounts written in the early 19thC (James is one; Joseph Allen is another), it is really interesting how the outcomes of many engagements were affected by weather changes. Modern accounts often ignore this sort of important detail. Joseph Allen's "Battles of the British Navy", published in the 1850s is remarkable for the many battle accounts indicating the influence of weather changes, particularly in the Coromandel campaign.

On the gaming table, I've had a couple of games dramatically tilted by unexpected wind shifts – one in which an entire British squadron in line of battle was taken aback (just as with the Saintes). My opponent was furious; I was standing there thinking – "Wow, how cool was that?"

So, yes, weather rules figure in all my larger "important" scenarios … unless I'm hosting a lot of newbie players. I was just wondering what the opinions of other AoS gamers are. Seems like a mixed bag of results. Interesting.

Thanks for responding.

B

I agree with almost everything written here with one proviso: randomly generated weather changes are often the very worst mechanics in AoS games. Too many rules allow drastic swings in weather conditions by a mere roll of the dice, and multiple times a game at that. Weather isn't necessarily predictable, but it does tend to follow patterns, and dice rolls do not. Lady Luck has no respect for probability; if there is a 1-in-1000 chance of a sudden force 10 gale out of nowhere, someone is going to get it every other time they play (maybe twice per game).

There is also my evergreen point that a wargame that takes too many big decisions out of a player's hands is just no fun to play. The age old argument that "friction" should somehow mean random events control the player's forces holds no truck with me. I know I'm not alone when I say that I prefer to experience a wargame as a contest with another human being, not as a walk across the open plains in a lightning storm. There are certainly historical examples of bizarre weather events handing victory unexpectedly to a fleet otherwise undeserving of it; I maintain that these events are not enjoyable to recreate on the wargame table. Unless you can find a way to make a severe unpredictable weather event into a challenge both players could accommodate with sufficient planning or acumen, it's best to just leave it out altogether.

Overall, I've found the inclusion of weather changes to be more likely to ruin suspension of disbelief than increase enjoyment. I'm convinced it is possible to include weather events in a way that leaves an AoS wargame an enjoyable experience, I just haven't seen it done yet.

- Ix

Sure, weather "could" have an impact on the battle. To me, the question is how often DID weather have an impact on a sea battle once forces had already engaged.

Battle of the Chesapeake, 1781. The fleets open fire at about 4pm with the British having the weather gauge. At about 5pm the wind shifts in favor of the French, allowing them to attempt to get more of their fleet into action.

I did this once, where a British Inshore Coastal Squadron was bottling up a French port, and the French had to beat into the wind in order to exit.

Most of the game the winds remained the same, though when the wind shifted later in the game it greatly complicated the Inshore Squadron's ability to keep the French vessels bottled up.

Even a minor wind shift in such a scenario certainly makes life interesting for the British in this case.

Favorable wind conditions can't last forever when you are on blockade.

Good fun.

YA wrote -

randomly generated weather changes are often the very worst mechanics in AoS games.

Could not agree more, YA. I spent about five years reading up on marine weather behavior. Weather does not chaotically lurch from one extreme to another. It tends to follow patterns and general rules of behavior. Competent AoS commanders would have been familiar with those patterns and tendencies -

A high barometric pressure = good weather.

A low barometric pressure = bad weather.

A rising barometer = improving weather.

A falling barometer = worsening weather.

Wind source tends to rotate clockwise (veer) around the compass in a zone of high/rising barometric pressure. (northern hemisphere)

Wind source tends to rotate counter-clockwise (back) around the compass in a zone of low/falling barometric pressure. (northern hemisphere)

In the absence of more powerful weather fronts, local coastal land and sea breezes will govern and they follow rules as well: the land breeze tends to blow out to sea starting in the pre-dawn hours and tends to die down in the early afternoon; sea breezes, blowing inland from the sea start to build in the mid-afternoon hours and fall as sunset approaches.

Changes in wind direction are usually minor, only a point or two either way (one of the reasons why lines of battle were IRL more often formed with the wind abeam than on an extreme close-hauled point of sailing).

Big alterations in wind direction tend to occur when there is a change in in the weather (barometer changes from rising to falling or vice-versa.

All of the above would, of course, be governed by a suitable degree of suitable randomization.

Given a set weather rules based upon such behavior guidelines as laid out above and a "weather report", i.e. a description of current weather situation issued as part of a scenario (talking a fleet action here – that might run 3-4 hrs once engaged), a savvy admiral could (should?) arguably be able to take into account the possibility of a change in weather during a battle.

FWIW.

B

79thPA wrote -

… how often DID weather have an impact on a sea battle once forces had already engaged.

I mentioned three in an above post: The Saintes (DeGrasse vs Rodney), Sadras and Negatapam (Hughes vs Suffren in both cases).

Here is an interesting description of the events in the Battle of Negatapam: "At 12:35 the wind took a hand in the battle, shifting suddenly from the southwest to the south-southeast, catching both squadrons unprepared. Hughes' line was wildly disordered and most of his ships paid off to landward., but the Burford and Sultan in the van and the Worcester and the Eagle in the rear, which had suffered less in their rigging, had seen the change coming and turned their heads toward the French. Of the French line, all but the Severe and Brillant turned their heads to the east; but these two vessels, both of which had been badly cut about aloft, were spun bows foremost towards the scattering English. Facing each other in the gap between the two squadrons there were now six ships, of which the Brillant was almost totally incapacitated."

Here is a fourth: Battle of Trincomalee (Suffren versus Hughes)
The battle stared around noon, with Hughes on an ESE heading in line-of-battle and the French approiaching in line abreast heading NE with the wind out of the SW. The French closed the British, turned and formed line-of battle parallel to the British and engaged throughout the afternoon. Sometime between 5:00 and 6:00pm the wind backed all the way around to blow, out of the ESE, taking both lines aback and causing the French and British to fall off onto a WSW heading.

FWIW.

B

Here is another BIG battle with several wind shifts
Ushant 1778 –

(from Wiki)
"At 6 a.m. on 27 July, with the British fleet roughly line-abreast, Keppel gave the order for the rear division, several miles away under Sir Hugh Palliser, to chase to windward. At 9 a.m., the French, who had hitherto been sailing in the same direction, several miles to windward, went about once more. As the rearmost ships of the French fleet were tacking however, the wind changed allowing the British to close the gap between them and their quarry.[7] At 10:15 the British were slightly to leeward, line-ahead on the same course as the French. A little later, a change in wind direction brought about a rain squall which cleared at around 11 o'clock. A further change in wind direction to the south-west gave advantage to the British which d'Orvilliers sought to negate by ordering his ships about. The French, now heading towards the British in a loose formation, would pass slightly to windward."

B

Not to belabor the issue, but I just took at random a log extract from the RN frigate La Nymphe operating of the French(?) coast on 6 September 1798 to show weather issues on a presumably "typical day at the office".

4am – – – – Wind fm NW
12noon – – -Variable – – – Light Airs & Clear.
1pm – – – – Wind fm WNW- – Light Airs & Clear.
4pm – – – – Variable – – – Taken Aback
5pm – – – – Calm
6pm – – – – Variable

Speeds (if I am interpreting the Log Book abbreviations correctly) averaged about 2 to 3 knots, only once touching 5 knots.

There is a lot of data on weather behavior to be found if one digs deep enough. I once latched onto an on-line real-time data website that recorded wind velocities and directions on a minute by minute basis for about 25 or so weather buoys situated in the North Sea. Examination gave a good idea of the pace of typical weather dynamics. Sadly, that site went off-line as couple of years ago.

FWIW.

B

Blutarski, the question I am asking is not if it ever happened, but if it occurred frequently enough to be bothered with. How many actions were there in which a change of weather is never mentioned? I don't play enough AoS games anymore to have a dog in the fight; I am just wondering if what may be a relatively unusual occurrence is being considered probable.

Hi 79thPA,
I think the answer to your question is largely subjective. IMPO, I believe that the answer is yes. I sense by your use of the phrase "bother with" that it is not important to you. An that's OK with me. Enjoyment of this hobby has no mandatory rules that I know of.

From my point of view, weather variability has played a noteworthy role on enough occasions to deserve inclusion in the games I play. Ditto for other events like gun bursts aboard own ship, outbreaks of fire aboard ship, loss of maneuverability due to lost/damaged masts/spars or smashed rudder.

Modern accounts of historical AoS battles, from my perspective, tend to gloss over a great deal of this sort of detail. The influence of weather is but one. I have found other instances: a British ship losing 85 of her crew due to a burst gun; one of Calder's three-deckers at the 1805 Battle of Finisterre having to be towed out of action after losing her foremast; four of Admiral Byron's ships at the Battle of Grenada being left completely helpless, out of control and adrift after being shot up aloft; or HMS Leander lying becalmed while the French 74 Genereux is able to take advantage of the sudden development of a breeze to fall upon her.

I want these sorts of situations to flavor my gaming experience; but I totally understand that others may see things differently.

FWIW.

B

Just adding my two cents (pence?).

Most of the issue seems to be how abruptly the weather changes are handled in games.

Maybe – a house rule that sets that if its a minor change (drop in wind strength – minor shift in direction) that can take place pretty much immediately, however any major weather change should be portrayed as something that develops over two or more turns.

You get a warning that barometric pressure is dropping – nothing serious happens on that turn. Next turn, the speed and direction changes somewhat and the next, you have a squall to deal with…

Hi Starcruiser,

You wrote –

Most of the issue seems to be how abruptly the weather changes are handled in games.

Maybe – a house rule that sets that if it's a minor change (drop in wind strength – minor shift in direction) that can take place pretty much immediately, however any major weather change should be portrayed as something that develops over two or more turns.

You get a warning that barometric pressure is dropping – nothing serious happens on that turn. Next turn, the speed and direction changes somewhat and the next, you have a squall to deal with…

Here is a brief summary of the way weather is handled in my own (unpublished) AoS rules

INITIAL WEATHER STATE
This is diced for prior to the game day and provided to the players as part of the game scenario

Wind Source
The compass consists of 16 "points" (as opposed to the true 32 points) around the compass – for example: N, NNE. NE, ENE, E and so on. I have data on the likelihood of wind direction for various global sea areas, but for simplicity's sake I use the data for the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Europe and the North Sea, since that is where the majority of AoS fighting took place. There is about a 30pct chance that the wind will be out of the SSW-WSW; there is about a 10pct chance of it blowing out of the NNE-ENE, and so on.

State of the Barometer
The barometric state is diced for (2D100) on the basis of the season selected for the scenario (Summer, Autumn, Winter, Spring) and is reflected in terms of Wind Strength. For example, in Summer, there is a 65pct likelihood that the wind will be Moderate or less in strength, but in Winter only about a 40pct chance. There are eight "Weather States" (i.e. wind strengths).

Barometric Trend
Barometric Trend can be Rising, Steady or Falling. This is tested by dicing on the basis of the Weather State established above – the lighter the wind strength, the more likely the Barometer will be in a falling state, vice versa as the Weather state grows worse. A "Rising Barometer" implies a likelihood of reducing wind strength over time; A "Falling Barometer" the reverse; a "Steady Barometer" implies that the weather will not likely change much.

- – -

Season selected for the scenario = Spring; pre-game dicing has established the following weather conditions to start the game –

2D100 dice roll = 61 = Wind source ESE
2D100 dice roll = 33 = Weather State – Fresh Breeze
1D6 dice roll = 1 = Rising Barometer

CHANGES IN WEATHER DURING A GAME
I use a deck of 52 playing cards. One card is taken from the top of a shuffled face-down deck every game turn (one game turn = approximately 1 to 1.5 minutes of real time).

If an Ace is revealed, weather must be checked. What follows is a totally random one-off weather test -

Weather State (Wind Strength)
Barometer is rising; therefore throw 1D10 (+) & 1D6 (-). Determine net score
D10/D6 dice throws are +1 and –5 for a net score of -4.
The existing Weather State value = 33; a deduction of -4 = 29, which is insufficient on the weather chart to trigger an increase in wind strength.

Wind Direction
Re-throw same dice combination of 1D10(+) & 1D6(-) to check for possible change in wind direction.
D10/D6 dice throws are +7 and –3. Plus/minus ratio is 2:1, which indicates change in wind source by 1 game "compass point". Because we have a rising barometer (which implies improving weather), the wind source rotates clockwise from ESE to E.

- – -

Without having the full details in front of you, the above probably sounds confusing as hell, but we have used it for 15+ years with success. Half the time, little or nothing happens. When something does happen, it is typically minor and manageable. Only rarely does something really "exciting" occur (typically at the extremities of the weather scale). The other attraction, for me at least, is that anyone with a grasp of meteorology will have a broad "feel" for the basic general likelihood of events: a rising barometer = moderating winds and clockwise rotation of wind source; a falling barometer = the reverse; a steady barometer = status quo with a lesser likelihood of change.

Is it worth all the trouble? You will know the answer to that question when you are playing a game where your opponent's line of battle is taken aback by a small shift in wind and you are in a position to fall upon him and crush him ..… or your opponent, carrying a full press of sail in worsening weather, suddenly loses his fore topmast when forced to test due to a sudden increase in wind strength.

Everyone defines their standards of gaming enjoyment according to their own desires. I'm not arguing that my approach deserves any sort of special worship, only that it is possible (IMO) to incorporate weather effects in a reasonably realistic way.

B

Use of the random playing card is a good mechanism. Not likely to happen, but it could.

From there, may be nothing serious, just annoying maybe. Or could be a mess for one side or the other.

Just as it should be…

Yes I take weather into account. I use post captain charts which are based on location. You check for minor weather changes every half hour in game time. There is about a
30% chance of a change if I recall but it might just be wind strength.
Blut, your system sounds great but it does sound complicated.

Joe

Hi Joe,
I concede that trying to explain the entire theory, organization and practice in one go does give the appearance of great complication. But, in practical game-play terms, not so much.

In the course of 52 game turns (more or less an historical hour's worth of action, weather is checked only a maximum of four times – when an Ace is turned up from the card deck at the start of a turn; cards are turned up for other reasons in the course of play as well, so an Ace might be "expended" without initiating a weather check).

One die roll (normally 1D10 vs 1D6) will immediately inform whether any weather change occurs. Only when the individual die score rations are 2:1+, 4:1+ or 6:1+ does anything happen (approx 50pct of the time). The bigger the ratio, the greater the chance of something potentially exciting happening, but:

The chance of a 2:1 ratio is 21 in 60 = wind shift 22.5deg.
The chance of a 4:1 ratio is 8 in 60 = wind shift 45deg.
The chance of a 6:1 ratio is 6 in 60 = wind shift 67.5deg

The only real book-keeping is applying the difference in the die scores to the "barometer" track. Changes in wind strength occur when the barometer track reaches a different Beaufort sector

It's a lot easier to play than to explain it … :-)

B

The weather can change dramatically in my rules, but players know it's coming. We draw a playing card each turn, and the weather shift -- if any -- is triggered by a certain number of black or red cards stacking up. Sailors can of course anticipate an inshore wind rising or a squall approaching. I agree with Ix that treating wind as an utterly random event shows ignorance of the topic combined with a desire to include it.

Hi CC,
I agree ….. to a degree. But, not all weather events are so "agreeable" or foreseeable.

DeGrasse's situation at The Saintes is a good example – he was trapped between the island to windward and Rodney to leeward and he had no forewarning.

If you are sailing close-hauled, it pays to know what the wind is likely to do when choosing what tack you want to be on. If victory conditions require you to be on the less favorable tack, you know that if you sail on the Beam Reach, an unfavorable wind shift will be less likely to take you aback.

The difference in our approaches can, I think, be described thusly:

My approach is: the barometer is falling, which means that any change in the wind is likely to involve an increase in strength and/or wind direction backing around the compass, but neither is a certainty. You might want to take in a bit of sail if you do not need the speed. You don't know exactly when or even if that might happen, only that it is more likely than the opposite.

Your approach (IIUC) is there is a definite change in wind strength and/or direction coming very soon. Get ready.

I will not in any way criticize your solution. I'm just happy to see someone else out there who sees the weather as a proper part of the challenge that should be found in an AoS rule set.

Splice the Main-Brace.

B

B, ( and CC)
I think I understand. I like the idea of watching the barometer. Certainly every seaman knows about that and can anticipate as you both say.
Is the forewarning enough to affect action on the tabletop?
Perhaps I am not sophisticated enough but with a falling barometer in a tactical game I can't think of many situations where it would change my actions.
Don't misunderstand, I think it is important to model as it certainly can and did make a difference. My question is to what level of complexity should it be modeled.
Thanks for the discussion.

Joe

Hi Joe,
Fair comment re the "complexity component". I spent more time and effort in simplifying the weather management rules than in studying the underlying meteorology (we are talking years in both cases).

That having been said, the threshold of tolerable complexity inevitably varies from player to player.

B

Blutarski, your point is well taken that there can be a black swan of the weather -- after all very expert sailors have been caught off guard. And no, my rules don't create realistic weather patterns based on research. Captaincy is probably a much more abstract game than yours. I respect the scholarship I see in your posts and I'd be curious to see your rules someday.

Agree that complexity is in the eye of the beholder. Your system sounds fascinating and I too hope to see it someday.

Cheers

Joe

Curs'd Captain & Joe Legan,
Email me at – byronangel [at] verizon [dot] net

B