"Representing Saxon Chevaulegers 1813" Topic

I am about to paint up the 1813 Saxon Chevauleger regiment. I have several options on which figures to use and I would be interested to see what people think.
The unit had 5 squadron. I am unsure if one was a depot squadron. They had four standards, one white Leibestandarten for the first squadron and three red Ordinarestandarte for squadrons 2, 3 and 4.

The entire regiment had around 750 men, so at a ratio of 20:1, just a little under 40 figures. That would fit to around 8 figures a squadron, which works for me.

Now it is my understanding that each squadron typically deployed in two ranks, with the first rank having lances and the second rank having swords as the primary weapon (not forgetting firearms).

For the squadron, I would model them for gaming purposes as a line 8 figures wide and one figure deep. Making them two figures deep would worsen the depth issue that we have with Napoleonic gaming units.

This leads me to the questions that I have for the hive mind:

1) How many flags would you have? Would you have one flag on each of the first four squadrons, one flag only on the first squadron, or perhaps two flags a Leibestandarte on the first squadron and an Ordinarestandarten on the second squadron.
Even just one flag on the first squadron is a high ratio of flags to figures, but they do look good; so four flags may be way too much. I am coming down on the side of two flags, one on each of the first two squadrons, but I could be persuaded by a good argument.

2) Given the above, would you have an officer figure and a trumpeter in each squadron or just the first?

3) Given that I am modeling each squadron as only one figure deep, how would you account for the second rank (half the unit) having swords? I have a couple of options that I am considering. Would you just make all the squadrons consist of lancer figures, would you have a mix of sword and lance figures in the single line of each squadron, or would you have all of the figures in the first and second squadron lancers and all of the figures in the third and forth squadrons as sword?

The last solution sounds reasonable until you deploy all four squadrons in a single line.

I am favoring having all the figures in all of the squadrons having lances, but I am not entirely happy with that choice as I will always know that there should be figures with swords rather than lances. There seem to be problems with every option.

I would be really interested in knowing what people think.

There is no answer to this as it is all a matter of personal taste. Personally I would do half the squadrons with lance and half with swords.
Nafziger, in his book on Poles and Saxons raises doubts over whether a fifth squadron was ever achieved in 1813.

Entirely your choice but my rule of thumb is each squadron gets an officer, if it is 4 figures it gets either a trumpeter or standard bearer, more figures than that and it gets both so at 8's I'd be doing 5 lancers plus 3 command.

I'm entirely with you on a single rank of models and so I'd make all troopers lancers, but I can see an argument for alternating lancers and swordsmen.

I agree with your organization of four squadrons of 8 each and agree with MJS. Except for command groups (officer, trumpeter, standard bearer)I would have everyone/troopers carry lances. By doing this for each squadron you would come close to representing the ratio numbers with swords only.

Surely they'd always operate one squadron up with others behind as support?

Then the one-up can have the lances and the supports sabres/carbines.

Also I'd have thought that the life squadron would have eschewed lances in favour of their sabres. (Assuming that lances were for noobs – like Prussian landwehr cavalry)

Incidentally, were they actually from Saxony or from Poland?

They were indeed Saxons. However, they did have a small detachment of Polish ulan NCO's as instructors.

The Chevaulegers Regiment Prinz Clemens was converted to ulans per order of 9 October 1811, but it appears that their name was not officially changed. Both Ulanen and Chevaulegers seemed to have been in use.

They received 628 lances from 22 January 1812, among several other recorded purchases in 1812 totalling about 600 more. Not counting 16 carbine armed flankers per squadron, it would appear to be sufficient to arm both ranks with lances, not just one. I could not find any reference to arming only the front rank with lances. When acting as a sort of provisional 2 squadron regiment in January and February 1813, they did incorporate some men from the other Saxon light cavalry units without lances – but this appears to have been by squadron/company, not by rank.
Perhaps they did not keep up their purchasing in 1813, as the unit was rebuilt?
Perhaps I am insufficiently informed.

"I am unsure if one was a depot squadron."
The 5th squadron was a combined squadron for the few survivors of the Chevaulegers Regimenter Prinz Johann, Prinz Albrecht & von Polenz. They appear to have joined the 4 squadrons of the Regiment Prinz Clemens in the field in late July, during the armistice.

The regiment was organized as 8 "mobile" companies and a "depot" company from 21 December 1813. They also received new uniforms.

See :
link
link
link
link

Strengths, present under arms (from Captain Nafziger)

1 February 1813
/Prinz Clemens Uhlan Regiment (with lances)(8/168)
/from other Chevauxleger Regiments (no lances)(16/393)
total (4)(24/561)

1 August 1813
Prinz Clemens Lancer Regiment (5)(24/773)

15 August 1813
Prinz Clemens Uhlan Regiment (5)(26/758)

15 September 1813
1/Prinz Clemens Lancer Regiment & Headquarters (9/138)
2/Prinz Clemens Lancer Regiment (4/141)
3/Prinz Clemens Lancer Regiment (5/119)
4/Prinz Clemens Lancer Regiment (5/122)
5/Prinz Clemens Lancer Regiment (4/137)
total (5)(27/657)

15 October 1813
Prinz Clemens Uhlan Regiment (5)(~29/652)

Peter Bunde (modern)
link
1811-1813

1814-1815

Thx @michman

Always good to have general assumptions destroyed! LOL.

We need to know more about the intentions behind arming light-cavalry with lances.

In order of competence:

* Polish-style Uhlans
* Russian G/Hussars
* Prussian landwehr

Front rankers with lance, rear rankers carbines

What was their role? I believe pursuit of broken infantry.

to add the excellent information of Michman- and I recommend to obtain the book by Titze about the Chevauleger Regiments, when Prince Clemens was converted to a lancer regiment, the carabines were taken off and only 16 per squadron remained with the carbine.

Titze doubts that the lances arrived in sufficient numbers to equip both ranks with it, in an order for a review by Reynier in March 1812 it was proposed that only the front rank was armed wiht lances – Titze couldn't trace any additional supply of lances after that inspection.

In spring 1813 – the regiment had 4 squadrons, in autumn campaing 5 squadrons.

@Mark J Wilson
" so at 8's I'd be doing 5 lancers plus 3 command."
Yes – I think so. But if only modelling 1 rank, I would do 2 squadrons without lances for 1813.
It was this kind of dilemma that drove me over time to more tactical games, with low scale ratios and thus playing small(er) engagements.

@von Winterfeldt
"Titze couldn't trace any additional supply of lances"
Yes – I think your conclusion on this point may well be most likely, especially for 1813. Thank you !

@Michman

I cannot say anything specific about 1813, the above mentioned was related to 1812, though enough lances were intended for both ranks, seemingly the ordered numbers did not get through – in 1813 400 were ordered to be produced, 200 of them should be delivered at the 16. 07. 1813, the other 200 at 08.08. 1813 to the Hauptzeughaus, the main depot which then decided how many to deliver to the regiment, additional to the lance the aprobriated stirups with attached leather tubes (to place the lower end of the lance for resting) were essential as well. As usual a complex topic.

Thank you to everyone for commenting. TMP has always been great for this type of discussion and as usual has turned up some unexpected information.

The general consensus seems to be that having a flag figure, officer and trumpeter in each 8 figure squadron is not too much, so that is what I will do with the first four squadrons. If I add a fifth squadron for the autumn 1813 campaign fighting, it will not have a flag.

As for the lance v sword issue. There seems to have been some discussion about whether the first and second squadrons had lances in the second row or not. It seems that it may have been the intention to have both ranks with lances, but it is not certain that enough lances arrived. I think that I will model these two squadrons with lance figures to represent the front row and not worry about showing the second row.

For the remaining squadrons, it does not seem that they got lances for the 1813 campaign. So I will model these squadrons with sword figures.

So to conclude:
Squadron 1: 1 figure with white flag and white ribbons. 1 Trumpeter. 1 Officer, 5 Lancers
Squadron 2; 1 figure with red flag and red ribbons. 1 Trumpeter. 1 Officer, 5 Lancers
Squadron 3. 1 figure with red flag and blue ribbons. 1 Trumpeter. 1 Officer. 5 Sword figures
Squadron 4: 1 figure with red flag and yellow ribbons. 1 Trumpeter. 1 Officer and 5 Sword figures
Squadron 5: 1 Trumpeter. 1 Officer. and 6 Sword figures.

These units will represent the squadrons going into the autumn campaign. The numbers obviously reduced as the campaign went on, but I need to fix on something.

I think that this representation will capture the flavor of the Saxon Chevaulegers in 1813. If I have misunderstood and got things totally wrong, please feel free to comment.
Again, thanks to everyone for their help.

what do you mean by flag? A cavalry standart?

According to Titze Prinz Clemens handed in all their standarts by the order of 07.03.1812 and did not carry any.

I did not find anything about 1813 so far, however when the Saxon cavalry was re organized at the end of 1813 beginning of 1814 the lancer regiment did not received any standarts at all.

So alas there is no consensus about the cavalry standarts of Prince Clemens other than the regiment did not carry any in Russia 1812 and did hand them in – in contrast to the other Chevaux legers regiments, for me therefore, most likely they did not carry any in 1813 either.

Your project looks very nice and good luck with it.

Sorry for my poor terminology. I have been installing flags on my renaissance troops for a large Italian wars (1496-1525) project. Yes, I meant standards.

The only comment that I have about standards is in the Nafziger book "Poles and Saxons of the Napoleonic Wars" Page 210 where it states that other than the Hussars, "The other cavalry regiments did carry standards". He is not very specific about dates at all.

I can certainly buy the argument that the chevaulegers did not carry standards in 1813. However, I would probably cling to the small opening that your comment "most likely they did not carry any in 1813 either" gives. This comment holds out a small possibility that they did carry standards in 1813 – and being a war-gamer that thinks that every unit looks better with standards, I will probably use a bit of artistic license and include standards. After all, I recently just put 20 flags on Landsknecht pike block just because it looks great. As long as no-one can categorically say they didn't carry standards, I can live with the ambiguity.

Nafziger is right about standards initially, but then armies are not static nor is their organisation, the information unearthed by Jörg Titze is of recent origin, and there he is pubishing in German, his research is as good as ignored, therefore I bing it up here.

All that would be much easier doing armies like of the French Revolution or early Napoleonic Wars where standards were carried all along.

Good luck with your project and let us see a photo when you realized all your efforts.

von Winterfeldt. Thank you for your comments. At some point I may get the book by Jorg Titze, but I have just spent the last three months working with Google Translate on a Polish book on the 1651 Battle of Bila Tserkva and I can't face any more Google Translate at the moment.
I will certainly post some pictures of this unit when it is finished.

"three months working with Google Translate on a Polish book on the 1651 Battle of Bila Tserkva"

Respect !
:-)

the lance length top to bottom was about 2.5 m long and painted in red, maybe of some interest.

Looking at some of the comments, I noticed that only 16 men per squadron kept the carbine. For the figures that I am using – Black Hussar Miniatures – the lancer figures don't have a carbine, but unfortunately the sword figures come with a carbine moulded onto the figure.
The figures are so nicely molded that I fear my modeling skills are not up to removing a molded on carbine. I could really damage the figure. Leaving them on may just have to be one of the compromises that I make.

I agree, I wouldn't remove them either, does any other company produces Prince Clemens Ulanen in 28 mm?

They look ripe for a Victrix Imperial Guard Lancer conversions to me, then you can have as few carbines as you want by just not sticking them on, which since they are the rather improbably left handed carbine is probably a good idea.

I like the way they change from red to blue as the Saxons change sides in 1813, must have made the QM a happy little bunny.

@ Michman, I've always been a big battles man and lancers look better to me so I'm happy with one rank.

A little later than I expected (as other projects got in the way) but they are finally done. Here are the finished photos of the unit that I promised.
There are more on my blog at collegeofkings.com

Thanks to everyone for their comments that helped me decide how to represent this colorful unit.

These remind me just how much I do miss 28mm. The detail is incredible here.