"Limbered artillery as targets" Topic

This is something pondered about for 30 years , gone one way than another yet no conclusion.
What target category should lumbered artillery be?
Same as unlimited?
Cavalry because it's a bigger target and more susceptible to damage with horse teams tied together?

Targeting limbered artillery is always a nice target. The first Napoleonic rules I ever played had very specific rules, if you hit the limber, everything in a 2 inch radius went up with it. Hitting the horses not only stopped the limber, but took the gun out of play for multiple turns. It's not very easy to manhandle a 12 pound gun.

Should add at least in Empire III artillery is artillery and nothing changes in rules as I read for limber or unlimber. Finally got this question to a head reading Tactics of the Russian Army in the Napoleonic Wars by Alexander and Yurii Zhmodikov and reading at Borodino how artillery was terribly battered moving into positions

Something like a wagon perhaps. Horses towing something.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek

🤔

During the Napoleonic War, most rounds carried were solid or canister to my knowledge.

War of 1812 in US

"Donald Graves writes about the ammunition load carried by British and American artillery in the War of 1812. As you can see, most of it is roundshot:

A Royal Artillery light 6-pdr. gun [firing the fairly small six-pound roundshot] was supplied with eight roundshot in its axle boxes and 32 roundshot, five heavy and five light canister rounds in the limber box, with 92 roundshot, heavy and light canister rounds and twenty shrapnel rounds in its ammunition wagon. American 6-pdr. guns [were] well supplied with eighteen roundshot in their ammunition chests while 62 roundshot and 30 canister rounds were carried in their caissons."

So not a lot of exploding shells. I could not find the breakdown of rounds and types, quickly, carried by French and Allied. Also i assume howitzers had more exploding rounds, then did other types. But for most artillery I would assume close to same ratios as British.

My thoughts would be the exploding round could cause the limber or Cassion to blow. A hot solid round? Thoughts as to what type of rounds would cause a limber or caisson to explode, other than exploding shell Penetrating a limber or caisson box. Possibly impact on fuses in the box by a solid round?

"At Friedland in 1807 a shell caused a huge explosion when it hit one of Oudinot's artillery caissons, wiping out a file of Coehorn's grenadiers. A Russian shell exploded beneath Colonel Semele's horse, disemboveling the animal and propelling the officer airborne. Semele was wounded but stayed with his regiment. Another shell exploded in the midst of the front rank of advancing column of 59th Line. At least 7 men fell, including a drummer. Sitting on the ground, he continued to beat the pas de charge as his regiment marched past. "

I have seen rules treat artillery like skirmishers when firing counter battery against it. Not sure I ever really agreed with that rule. Would it be anymore difficult to hit a column 4, 8 or 12 men wide at 500 yards, then a fully deployed battery with 6 guns, horses and cassions at 500?

Also not sure of distance between deployed Napoleonic battery and their cassions.

This gets more interesting.

"Gunpowder, as in black powder, is quite insensitive to shock. It's a deflagrating explosive, not a detonating explosive. The bullet would have to hit it hard enough to raise the temperature locally to its ignition point, which is in the 430 degree C range. It is possible to ignite it that way, but it takes numerous drop hammer tests to achieve it. However, the slightest spark will set it off."

So a solid shot causing a spark, would seem to be very possible.

French 12 pound gun

"The limber box (trail chest) held 9 round shot while the caisson carried an additional 48-round shot and 20 canister shot. Of the canister shot, 12 were larger rounds with 41 large projectiles while eight were smaller rounds with 112 small projectiles.[20] A single 12-pounder had three ammunition wagons each holding 68 rounds.[21] The canister round was propelled by 4.25 pounds (1.93 kg) of gunpowder[22] while the round shot charge contained 4 pounds (1.81 kg) of gunpowder.[16] The maximum range of the 12-pounder was 1,800 metres (1,969 yd). The effective range was 900 metres (984 yd) for shot and 600 metres (656 yd) for canister."

As far as I can recall, all of the rules that I have played treated limbered artillery as a more vulnerable target. I think that just reflects the fact that it is a bigger target, rather than having much to do with the propensity of caissons to explode. That being said, if the caissons are moving to a position with the guns, they are more likely to be in line of sight, than if the battery is deployed (when caissons are likely to be positioned to take advantage of any cover or anything else that might block line of sight). So, maybe a bigger target again in those circumstances.

I agree. A limbered battery is closer together, and it is more likely that horses will be killed, wheels destroyed, various wagons, limbers, etc., damaged or destroyed, etc.

@35thOVI

According to an an article I read recently, the aim was to deploy guns 10 metres apart, with limbers 10 metres behind and then caissons at 50 metre intervals behind the limbers. No doubt that is a ("counsel of perfection", but if followed it does suggest a lot of open space in a deployed battery position. In a column, might be narrow if March column but lots of ranks for the ball to plough through. If attack columns, then much wider target (2 companies wide?)

@Steaming, yes I understand the column bounce and agree, if you can put the ball at the front and get a good few bounces or a good roll of the ball, a lot of men would go, just like bowling.

My thinking was, you have this deployed battery. 4 or more guns deployed in a spaced line, with the horse and limbers behind. A hit with solid shot and a good ball roll and or bounce, hits the gun, then horses/vehicle behind on the roll or bounce. Anyway, seems a battery would make an easier target to hit then a group of skirmishers. So I never understood having the same deduction for firing on the battery as you did for firing on skirmishers. I have seen a deployed battery of 6 guns on the field with limbers 17 to 19 yards
back with 6 horses per limber, with riders on them and other men mounted riding with the battery. I have also been on the skirmish lines. The battery was a much larger and easier target to hit with a smoothbore, IMO. So again, just never understood the same target penalty.

Also something not taken into consideration very often in games is condition of the ground and effect on ball roll and bounce. Softer ground would take away a lot of that advantage. Just throwing that out for thought. 🙂

Thanks

@Steamingdave2 and 35thOVI
I believe guns 20 paces apart was in several armies drill books and I can't see sensible gunners closing up if they didn't have to, thus they are as hard to hit as skirmishers in my rules.

Moving might be trickier, if they were going straight forward under fire [Sennamont at Friedland e.g.] why close up, but before they deployed they were probably a lot closer together to make control easier, yelling 'wheel to the right' from 120 yards away needs a good pair of lungs.

As to exploding powder it needs to be compressed or it just burns, which is why ramming is an art, but if you set off enough from the bottom/middle then you get what is called a globe of compression, where the burn produces the compression necessary. I heard/felt this happen once when a re-enactment society's attempt to 'burn off' some surplus powder because they couldn't bring it back home on the ferry blew out my caravan windows and set off the fire alarms at the local nuclear power plant. Quelle Horreur!

Getting 1 dead horse, if the only part of a limber team untangled from the rest of the team has to be a job, and the horses may not be all that thrilled going along with it.

In our old house rules solid shot was doubled for effectiveness against limbered artillery.

Russian doctrine was to keep artillery pieces 15 paces apart. I can see why a unlimbered guns are hard to hit

Artillery in march column and limbered was a large target. Deployed and ready to fire they were not.