robert piepenbrink  | 25 Aug 2022 9:54 a.m. PST |
[WARNING! UNSOLOCITED PREACHINESS FOLLOWS!] There has been some recent discussion of inflation and general bad times, and how this affects the hobby. A few words from a guy who mostly got it wrong back in the Carter administration:
1. This is a hobby: it is not a life. If you need to trim the wargaming budget, cut out the wargaming budget, or even sell some of the lead to keep the family as they should be, do so. You'll get more credit if you bring up the idea than if your wife has to tell you the time has arrived.
2. Complete more than you start. By "complete" I mean enough figures for a variety of battles. If you use Grant of One Hour Wargames for scenario generation, you have a built-in stopping point, but all of us can see the size armies we need to play a game, and the point at which the next unit doesn't add much to the games we can play. In bad times, you want playable groups of armies, NOT that single really nice-looking unit which commits you to a new scale or period.
3. Bad times don't last--but neither do manufacturers. If you've "single-sourced" a project, so that only one company can sell you the figures to complete, it's time to finish--or to sell out. Manufacturers die when discretionary money diminishes, and an army you can't play a game with is a very expensive wall decoration.
4. Terrain will keep. You can't play without troops, but you can play with cardboard buildings, felt roads and pine cone trees until you can afford better. You can even learn to make better.
5. The quality of the game is not determined by the expense or the number of the castings. A well thought out skirmish with a dozen figures each can be a more engrossing game than board edge to board edge armies on mirror-image terrain.
6. This is temporary--but so is life. Enjoy the companions and the games you can have now. When the good times return, you may be too busy to enjoy them. [UNSOLICITED PREACHINESS ENDS] |
| Arjuna | 25 Aug 2022 10:05 a.m. PST |
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| arthur1815 | 25 Aug 2022 10:12 a.m. PST |
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| Grattan54 | 25 Aug 2022 10:15 a.m. PST |
What you say is true. Sadly, what you also wrote gives no help to wargaming companies that are struggling. Saying, buy fewer figures, paint what you have and don't worry about terrain right now may lead to companies going out of business before times get good again. |
Old Glory  | 25 Aug 2022 10:17 a.m. PST |
The " cry" I have heard in America my entire life is "more money, bigger contracts, go on strike, bigger pensions, etc."
It is plain silly to not realize that will effect the price of consumer goods or the hobby sector. Russ Dunaway |
 The Virtual Armchair General | 25 Aug 2022 10:23 a.m. PST |
From another (?) "struggling" hobby provider, maybe occasional, smaller orders for needed bits would be more helpful than ceasing purchases altogether? Then again, if the choice is "toys" or "food," I agree with and accept the obvious solution. TVAG |
| Frederick | 25 Aug 2022 10:32 a.m. PST |
True that – if I never buy another mini again I will still struggle to finish off what I have to paint |
 etotheipi | 25 Aug 2022 10:46 a.m. PST |
A well thought out skirmish with a dozen figures each is almost always a more engrossing game than board edge to board edge armies on mirror-image terrain. There. Fixed that for you. |
| nnascati | 25 Aug 2022 11:19 a.m. PST |
I've been selling things pretty steadily, as well as continuing some commission painting. I never have used house money for my toys.
Etotheipi, I completely agree, skirmish games are the way to go. |
| Milgame | 25 Aug 2022 11:34 a.m. PST |
I was one of the recent posters on this issue. I am thankfully not facing tough choices about the hobby and will be able to maintain a discretionary budget for gaming. It's just that I'm realizing that budget won't go as far as it used to, and likely never will again. But great advice from Robert for those that do have to tighten their gaming belts. |
| Col Durnford | 25 Aug 2022 12:33 p.m. PST |
One of the advantages of doing this thing we do for so many years is that I have accumulated lots of stuff that I will never use. Over the last few years I've been able to sell off some of the excess and my hobby has become self funding. Prices are up, but I can still make guilt free purchases of anything I want. |
| robert piepenbrink | 25 Aug 2022 12:39 p.m. PST |
"Sadly, what you also wrote gives no help to wargaming companies that are struggling." I agree and am equally saddened, Grattan. But people can't spend what they don't have, and shouldn't spend on hobbies money for which the household has real needs. My advise was meant to get them through these times with more games and less wastage. And I have said a couple of times lately to buy what's necessary to put armies on the table--if you can--and buy it in large chunks to minimize shipping and handling fees. But it does no one any good to spend the wargaming money on a project you can't get to the "troops on table and rolling dice" stage. (Yes, of course I've done it.) |
| Fitzovich | 25 Aug 2022 5:13 p.m. PST |
Having run a gaming store years ago and dealt with many manufacturers I can safely say that wargaming fits well into times that are hard as people need an escape. They can moderate their purchases to fit the available discretionary income as needed, but items purchased still provide entertainment value. I would also suggest that these are not anywhere near hard times overall. Some folks may be having difficulties here and there, but the economy is steaming along just fine. Yes, prices have accelerated in some categories due to some natural inflation, but more likely the "benefits" of the ripple affects of price gouging by larger companies in various sectors of the economy. Game Manufacturers just like the Game Retailer I once was move into business, some do well, some less so. It is unfortunate for those who are not successful and hopefully they haven't taken a big personal financial loss at the end, but that is the nature of the beast. We have hopes and dreams, roll the dice and take the chances. |
 Murphy | 25 Aug 2022 5:37 p.m. PST |
Earlier this year, I made my first major sell off of my collection – a massive 20mm painted and unpainted Vietnam War set. It was sad because I had a bit of an attachment to them, but at the same time, I hadn't played the rules or used them in almost two decades.
I sold the entire lock, stock, and barrel, along with reference books, built and unbuilt models, terrain and scenics, and additions to another TMP'er here who made me a good fair price and made a good deal.
It cleared up my shelf space for the Reaper stuff that I had coming in.
Regretfully, I am starting to look at doing away with some of my 15mm modern stuff as I have seriously lost interest in it for now, and just well…I dunno….it doesn't hold the appeal for me anymore like it used to.
If I did that, it would be a huge sale, (and I mean HUGE)…. |
| microgeorge | 25 Aug 2022 6:12 p.m. PST |
I did a little a adjustment by sacrificing my long-awaited solo road trip with a staycation and buying more minis instead. I've calculated my savings at a few hundred dollars and my wife is happy that I stayed safe at home. I was also able to complete a couple of small projects. I'll soon be able to run my 1939 Mokra scenario. WIN WIN WIN WIN! Still trying to get rid of mt Geo-Hex sets to get some more shelf space. |
| Garand | 25 Aug 2022 6:38 p.m. PST |
Right now, & in the future, I am only buying figures for DBA armies. They'll serve as springboards to full DBMM armies later on down the line (or other suitable rulesets), via BBDBA. But considering that a DBA army usually can be had for $30 USD to $50 USD, I think it is pretty economical at the moment… Damon. |
| Old Glory | 25 Aug 2022 7:41 p.m. PST |
My experiences the last 30 years or so is that during economic difficult times, people tend to find reasons to stay home -- save gas, eating at home is much cheaper, the ball game can be watched on TV, etc. so have really never noticed any noticeable fall off in purchases directly related to such and even perhaps a bit of a boon as during covid lockdowns ---people need something to do?
Also, perhaps the OG prices and Army card becomes even more attractive in such times? Russ Dunaway |
| Lucius | 25 Aug 2022 7:42 p.m. PST |
The oldest of us remember the late 1970's, when new board games were sometimes shipped out with no dice included. Instead, there was a slip of paper explaining that the high cost of petroleum made it too expensive to put dice in the box, and that most gamers already have enough dice anyway. Times ARE tough, for many. But it has been worse. |
| Arjuna | 26 Aug 2022 3:21 a.m. PST |
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| korsun0 | 26 Aug 2022 4:38 a.m. PST |
My purchases are directly related to my sobriety when I am on the internet; rationality is a non existent thing…… :( |
| Lucius | 26 Aug 2022 4:48 a.m. PST |
LOL Arjuna. Somehow I missed that game, although I still have my thoroughly un-PC copy of "Public Assistance". |
| Arjuna | 26 Aug 2022 5:54 a.m. PST |
I still have my thoroughly un-PC copy of Public Assistance. Public Assistance was banned in some states?
In good condition there is probably a buck to be made! |
| 79thPA | 26 Aug 2022 7:51 a.m. PST |
I have sold off a number of fallow projects to fund new ones. I also swore off huge armies, figuring I could concentrate on DBA and skirmish-size forces, but that did not work out as I had planned after buying 2,000 painted 25s. Still, I have started mounting up projects that have been sitting on their painting sticks for the last 3-7 years. |
| robert piepenbrink | 26 Aug 2022 9:25 a.m. PST |
79th, it would break your heart. A fellow gamer died lately with easily enough castings on painting sticks--or riders painted but not horses, or painted but not based--to have filled multiple 6x10 boards. That's on top of castings purchased, popped off bases for some sort of corrective work and never made functional again. Apart from having spent the money and time and never gamed with them, it was a loss to the widow, since "nearly done" is not sold as easily as "table ready." Don't let it happen to you. Made me a real believer in finishing up projects. |
| etotheipi | 26 Aug 2022 9:27 a.m. PST |
Also, perhaps the OG prices and Army card becomes even more attractive in such times? OG Army Card is always a good deal! Entertainment consumption generally takes an upturn during hard economic times. The Great Depression basically fueled the creation of what is the modern media industry (movies, back then). As with all economic change, the effects are rarely "evenly" distributed amoung the participants. |
 20thmaine | 26 Aug 2022 11:20 a.m. PST |
A fellow gamer died lately with easily enough castings on painting sticks--or riders painted but not horses, or painted but not based--to have filled multiple 6x10 boards. That'll be me someday. Hence I buy relatively little these days. Not nothing, you'll note.  I agree it's great finishing things, but it's also great starting things (I could wish that wasn't true perhaps) |
| Old Glory | 26 Aug 2022 12:54 p.m. PST |
If you take a family of 4 to a professional sports game by the time the dust is cleared you will be out $200 USD – $400. USD
No return.
Spend half that on miniatures, have a picnic in your yard enjoying quality time with your family-- the miniatures will eventually give some return and if they are painted to a decent standard it should be a healthy return.
All these painting services are not around because people refuse to purchase painted miniatures-- I know of two that are backed up years and accept no new clients. Russ Dunaway Russ Dunaway |
| etotheipi | 26 Aug 2022 2:06 p.m. PST |
I wouldn't say a pro (or any other) sports outing has no return. It's a life experience that provides value (the sports bit, the team bit, the companionship bit) as long as you can remember it. I saw this live YouTube link
the tackle was right in front of me and was in the perfect position to look right down the line of the long pass. Joy forever and I show this clip to people still today. Wargame materials contribute to a similar experience and can be reused later to create greater experiences that build on the previous ones. Definitely a different value proposition. While some people certainly can regain monetary value from painted minis, most can't. Also, I live in the Washington DC metro area. I wish I could get four people into a DC United match for $400. USD ;) |
| Old Glory | 26 Aug 2022 2:48 p.m. PST |
I have sold every miniature that was painted for a good profit -- no real problem and it has been 1000s.
In fact I have about 200 Wargame Foundry Vikings (unpainted) I ended up never using that I suspect I will have no problems selling.
I was also talking about monetary return. I also have enjoyed many a great professional sports game. Russ Dunaway |
| mildbill | 27 Aug 2022 6:09 a.m. PST |
Conventions and brick and mortar should be finished off by this in the USA. A pity because where will non gamers find out about the hobby? |
| arthur1815 | 27 Aug 2022 6:50 a.m. PST |
The same way that I did in the UK over fifty years ago – books! |
| UshCha | 27 Aug 2022 7:27 a.m. PST |
To me minis die of overuse. If they aren't dead you are not using them enough. Like arthor1815 said I learn't from books, no conventions were around when I was a kid that I could go to. To be honest you can war game without posh figures, use Junior General paper flats, you might enjoy it more without the tyranny of having to paint or pay for them to be painted, to me its about the game. Paper trees and book hills are way better than not playing and you can call it a Vintage approach as that was what it used to be like over here in the UK. Sneer at any that try to put you down, they are the fools not you. |
| 20thmaine | 27 Aug 2022 1:03 p.m. PST |
Yup – all we need to do is persuade all the Public Libraries to buy a copy of Henry Hydes' two wargaming tomes. Throw in a few One Hour Wargaming Books and the hobby is saved. (Still not Henry Hyde!). Of course with the budget cuts they are about to be hit with that might not be an easy act of persuasion  |
| robert piepenbrink | 27 Aug 2022 2:24 p.m. PST |
Good luck, 20th! If your local still has books on military history or wargaming, try not to call the librarians' attention to them. I years ago concluded that public librarians whine about censors because they dislike the competition. |
| 20thmaine | 27 Aug 2022 5:13 p.m. PST |
Our local libraries – and I kid you not – are being positioned for being repurposed as "places of warmth" for the winter for people who cannot afford to heat their homes. In very much related news – the so-called "price cap" (it isn't really a cap more a setting of the price per unit of energy sold) is going to take Average UK household fuel bills from £1,900.00 GBP/year to £3,500.00 GBP /year. And this is expected to shift again in the next 6 months to a typical annual household bill of £5,400.00 GBP/year in January before hitting more than £6,600.00 GBP/year in April. So, no, I don't really expect the libraries to be spending money on books – the budget is all going to go on keeping the radiators hot. Unless we get a really mild winter. Fingers-crossed! |
| nnascati | 28 Aug 2022 3:04 p.m. PST |
Arthur1815, I fully agree. While I have been selling off my physical library, my kindle Library expands exponentially. |
| etotheipi | 29 Aug 2022 5:08 a.m. PST |
are being positioned Does "being positioned" include additional security? |
| Arjuna | 29 Aug 2022 5:58 a.m. PST |
Our local libraries – and I kid you not – are being positioned for being repurposed as "places of warmth" for the winter for people who cannot afford to heat their homes Cunning plan considering low temeratures (and humidity) help to preserve books and documents, from mold growth for example. Does "being positioned" include additional security? Housing the freezing rabble in public libraries MEANS additional security for mayor's offices and other government buildings.
Takes the heat off them, so to speak. |
| etotheipi | 30 Aug 2022 4:51 a.m. PST |
Takes the heat off them, so to speak. Not if they skip the increased security. It transforms one problem that people are bored caring about (homelessness) into a bright and flashy one that is media gold (especially since people will forget about it in a week or two, so you don't need sustained effort to follow the aftermath). |
| 20thmaine | 30 Aug 2022 6:01 a.m. PST |
Without wanting to open yet another can of worms I doubt that Security will be a huge issue (I mean, yeah, they maybe might have someone or sometwo burly people hanging around, or maybe just have the local copper pop in every now and then) but we don't really do the whole shooting people in public places thing in the UK. |
| etotheipi | 30 Aug 2022 8:00 a.m. PST |
we don't really do the whole shooting people in public places thing in the UK. Yeaj, got it … link … but who said anything about guns? Hust you. Homeless people are one of the most vulnerable populations in society, and one of the most stressed. So they have the most problems. Drug use, mental instability, violent behaviour, connections to criminal activity, prostitution, robbery, destruction of property all have higher representation in the homeless population than in the population at large. That said it is still a small percentage of the homeless population in which these problems manifest. However, if you are going to keep a large number of people in a (comparatively) small, controlled area for a reasonable stretch of time and you don't want the problems of the few to adversely affect the rest of the population who have few, if any, resources to respond to additional adversity, you are going to need more than "a couple of burly guys". Generally, the ability to talk down people with a wide range of different problems is more valuable than the threats and violence you seem to think is the solution. It also takes a sustained relationship with local law enforcement, which requires (well spent in my opinion) resources on both sides. If you need to escalate to use of force, there needs to be a well thought out plan. Security is also food, cleanliness, and basic medical care, not just physical security. The cost of all these things becomes higher when you want to have a semi-permanent (more than a couple weeks at any location) facility doing them. Doing something to help the overwhelming majority of the homeless population who are trying to get to a better place requires more effort than trying to make yourself feel better. |
| 20thmaine | 30 Aug 2022 8:58 a.m. PST |
Fair enough, I misunderstood what you meant. But I think we are actually talking at cross-purposes. These suggestions of "warm hubs for the winter" are not aimed particularly at the homeless (who already sometimes drift in to libraries for the winter anyway). No – the idea here is that non-working parents with young children, or Pensioners, or even people on pretty good salaries – will use the buildings to stay warm. Say at the weekends when they aren't at work. Because the expectation is that this winter up to half the households in the UK will meet the current definition of "Fuel Poverty". A definition which is being rewritten to reduce the size of the problem….. (not me being cynical, it's what the government is doing. Maybe they are a bit cynical? Who knows?) The existing homeless shelters will probably remain the main destination for the actual homeless – and these do offer social support, food, etc as well as warmth. The using of libraries as warm hubs is not at all normal. At my great age () I can't recall it ever happening before. Something similar apparently took place in WWII for people who had been bombed out of their houses, but I'm not that old! |
| 20thmaine | 30 Aug 2022 9:07 a.m. PST |
Oh, and since you decided to prise open the can of worms, your link to one child being shot in Liverpool actually proves my point – it has both caused national outcry and is incredibly rare. How many people got shot in the USA on the same day? You can dig the links up I'm sure. For 2020 the total was 19,000 – which was 52 per day on average (and that excludes suicides and non-fatal shootings). link But yeah, you are right, 1 is too many. And so is 19,000. |
| etotheipi | 30 Aug 2022 9:39 a.m. PST |
Oh, and since you decided to prise open the can of worms So you bring up guns and shooting, and I respond. That equals me opening the can of worms? one child being shot in Liverpool Perhaps this is metric math. The article points out two within days of each other. It is also not an annual number, so comparing it to the US annual number is being willfully deceptive. This may be a perception and POV issue, since in your mind security=guns. Also, if you want to include foreign criminals on US soil and foreign terrorist attacks, sure. (The UK was successful in building a border wall with France recently.) I admit that the IK exceeds the USA in terms of (per capita) percent of stabbing and beating deaths as opposed to gun deaths for civilian homicides. They also exceed in cripplings, since a lot of the gun violence ends in either death or low lasting damage. And the UK is closer to the USA if you include long guns with the hand guns. (US numbers usually include all gun numbers, while UK government numbers only report handguns.) And the UK has a lot more bombing deaths than the US, but those aren't in these stats. That said, the US per capita homicide rate is about 5.1 per 100K and the UK is 1.3 (depending on where you look). So about four times. Of course, compared to world GDP (a measure of activity and contribution to the planet) where the US is eight times the UK, we end up with about half the per CGP civilian violence. The point is that pulling numbers from different places that represent different things isn't comparison. Then again, if you actually want to make a difference, you actually have to do some work that doesn't stop when you hear what you want to hear. |
| Arjuna | 30 Aug 2022 9:47 a.m. PST |
These suggestions of "warm hubs for the winter" are not aimed particularly at the homeless I also think that was a misunderstanding. And what I meant in the posting etotheipi cited, was a sarcasm to express that freezing people are placed in public libraries so that they do not become a danger for representatives of a state that does not care about them.
A danger should they, in their distress, occupy government buildings and give legitimate expression to their cold rage… Coincidentally, I read yesterday in a German newspaper about the Ofgem announcement and the conditions for large segments of the population in the "cost of living crisis" in the UK.
The number of food banks of the Trussel Trust alone rose from 80 in 2011 to 1.400 to date. I am simply appalled. |
| 20thmaine | 30 Aug 2022 9:56 a.m. PST |
We have 2.5million people who use food banks on a weekly basis. It is a national shame, no two ways about it. |
| Arjuna | 30 Aug 2022 10:21 a.m. PST |
I expect Germany to catch up considerably with the UK this winter… |
| 20thmaine | 30 Aug 2022 10:27 a.m. PST |
@etotheipi well, I apologized once for misreading the thrust of what you meant. Additional security, in the reporting of USA gun crime, seems to usually mean "arm the teachers and have a classroom gun battle" – I thought this was what you were hinting at (arm the librarians!), but like I said I have now apologized for misinterpreting the thrust of your comment. I am sorry you feel that I was being wilfully deceptive – actually I was trying not to go through all this again. I'm sure you actually already know how this goes. If we must compare annual figures – since you criticize me for not doing so – in the year April 2020 – March 2021 (that's how the statistics are reported using the Financial Year) there were 35 homicides using a firearm in the UK. UK: 35 in a 12 month period. The US figures for 2020 are as previously stated 190,000. It is my fervent hope that we can agree that 35 is less than 190,000. I also hope that we can agree that the ratio of 35:190000 is 0.00018421. Or, in other words, for every gun death (not suicide) in the UK there were 5,429 (rounding to the nearest integer) gun deaths (not suicide) in the USA. We can leave it there if you like. Or you can (and did) throw in knife crime, and that still doesn't make the USA come out smelling of roses – it pushes up the homicide rate in both countries, but that 190,000 figure is really hard to catch up with. We have cities that don't have that many people in. |
| 20thmaine | 30 Aug 2022 10:53 a.m. PST |
The UK was successful in building a border wall with France recently Umm…the UK is an Island. We don't have a wall between us and France. We do have a 20mile wide (at the narrowest point) stretch of water but I don't think we can take any responsibility for putting it there. |
| 20thmaine | 30 Aug 2022 10:59 a.m. PST |
the US per capita homicide rate is about 5.1 per 100K and the UK is 1.3 6.3 and 1.2 actually. link |
